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Hardening as Punishment
According to yet another view, God hardens the agent's heart as a means of punishing him. Specifically, the hardened agent is thereby deprived of three great goods: (a) free will, along with (b) the potential to act rightly, and (c) the chance to repent. He is not punished further for the hardened act.
Removing free will is a perfectly just punishment for a person so depraved, an appropriate tit‑for‑tat. The agent hardened his own heart in the earlier plagues, contrary to God's will; so now his heart becomes hardened by God, contrary to his own will. Likewise, he chose to do evil, so now his punishment (or part of it) is�that he does evil!
Hardening is not only a case of the punishment fitting the crime--rather, hardening is "a punishment that is the very sin that it punishes" (Maimonides presents a version of the punishments solution in Eight Chapters, chapter 8). Notice that insofar as it recognizes the value of free will by considering free will deprivation as an evil, the "punishment" solution is compatible with, and even partially dovetails with, high assessments of free will such as those found in free will theodicies [explanations for suffering that stress human responsibility].
Unfortunately, the punishment solution, as stated thus far, is incomplete, for it falters as regards the repentance deprivation problem.
The solution would claim that the hardened agent is punished precisely by losing the opportunity for repentance. But even granted the heinous character of figures like Pharaoh, some thinkers have been troubled by the implication that God actively shuts the gates of repentance to some people. (See, for example, Arama, Akedat Yitzchak, Exodus, chapter 36; cf. Maimonides, Eight Chapters, Chapter 8, and Mishneh Torah, Laws of Repentance Chapter 6.)
Dr. David Shatz is Professor of Philosophy at Yeshiva University.
Originally posted by Gregg Bolinger:
If you are speaking here about when the first born child was to die, these children probably benefited from death. Now this next part I say is defintaly up for controversy, but because of what I believe, these children did not go to hell.
Originally posted by Eugene Kononov:
So, it looks like God deliberately created Evil...
Originally posted by Eugene Kononov:
"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."
And the purpose of creating evil is to defeat it with good? Is God fighting himself?
Originally posted by Tim Allen:
Maybe, but even I am more compassionate than a god that would do this. And I believe in God, and believe God has worked several miracles in my life. My first born son is named Daniel. He is a beautiful child who in his two years of life has never committed a "sin" that I know of.
Let's say that a new religion springs up in Gerona, which is about a half-hour's drive from where I live in Barcelona. The followers of the new religion come to kill all of the first-borns in Barcelona to show us the glory of god.
No matter how many times one of these followers tells me that Daniel will enter right into the kingdom of heaven, I will never believe that it is a good thing. If a follower killed Daniel to show me his god's glory, that would not make me think God was glorious: I would think that the man who killed Daniel was a horrible person. I would live out the rest of my days in hell. I would never, never think that the god espoused by the new religion was a good, kind, gentle god. I would think that the followers were murderers who had used the religion as an excuse to murder my son. I would certainly never want to join that religion, nor would I recommend it to any of my neighbors-- after the new religion guys came and killed Joan, the first born son of my neighbor Rosa, I doubt that she would think I were a good person for suggesting such a scheme. She most likely would demonstrate quite loudly and violently that she did not agree with the new religion's followers.
[ October 17, 2003: Message edited by: Tim Allen ]
Originally posted by herb slocomb:
(Isaiah 45:7, KJV) - "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."
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Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
The King James version is not known for being an accurate translation.
The word "evil" does not have the same meaning to us as it did in the time of King James.
A better translation would be "I make well-being and create calamity". God does not create evil but he does bring down upon people (such as the citizens of Soddom) terrible calamities.
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Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
Why is that the better translation, because it supports what you were taught in Sunday school?
Since you chosen to be rude and make this personal, you can argue with yourself from this point on.
[ October 17, 2003: Message edited by: Thomas Paul ]
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Originally posted by Eugene Kononov:
GB: God does not hold children responsible for their parents actions.
God strongly disagrees:
"... for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation..." (Deuteronomy 5:9, New International Version)
Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
"Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?"
As long as you think of "evil" in terms of awful things happening then the translation is fine.
herb : Why is that the better translation, because it supports what you were taught in Sunday school?
Thomas :Since you chosen to be rude and make this personal, you can argue with yourself from this point on.
[ October 17, 2003: Message edited by: Thomas Paul ]
Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
St. Augustine's opinion of how evil comes into the world reflects general Christian philosophy. The Catholic Encyclopedia sums it up fairly well:
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05649a.htm
Originally posted by herb slocomb:
But why are we using Christians, all of whom don't agree on this issue as your article points out, to justify a particular way interpretating an ancient Jewish/Hebrew text? Wouldn't the Jews themselves be better authorities on their own sacred text?
Do you know any rabiis that program in Java?Originally posted by herb slocomb:
Wouldn't the Jews themselves be better authorities on their own sacred text?
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Originally posted by Mapraputa Is:
But God does them only to your own benefit. If you do not believe in it, then well, you will go to Hell.
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"I try my best to make *all* my posts nice, even when I feel upset" -- Philippe Maquet
I form light and create darkness,
I make weal and create woe --
I the LORD do all these things.
Piscis Babelis est parvus, flavus, et hiridicus, et est probabiliter insolitissima raritas in toto mundo.
Originally posted by Mapraputa Is:
Doesn't free will require that the choices I make lead to results that I choose?
Didn't they?
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I don't believe that God issues punishments on people while they are alive. I believe that people issue punishments on each other through their own evil.Originally posted by Mapraputa Is:
That would be great! Instead we have a Universe where God either punish some people or not, and how can you know when he does that and when not? For example, WTC disaster was God's punishment or not? How do you know?
I am just curious.
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No, because whatever I did I went to heaven. How is that free will? By my actions I told God I did not want to follow him and yet he rewards me anyway. "I don't want to go to heaven!" "Too bad, you are going there anyway."
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"I try my best to make *all* my posts nice, even when I feel upset" -- Philippe Maquet
"I'm not back." - Bill Harding, Twister
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"I try my best to make *all* my posts nice, even when I feel upset" -- Philippe Maquet
assumed a new name "Map"
(Isaiah 45:7, KJV) - "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."
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