When does patriotism become nationalism ??

[R K Singh]

I was reading Gill's signature which says:
Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it.
-George Bernard Shaw
Not very sure, but I think Shaw was confuse with nationalism.
Charlie Chaplin left Germany and Romania[not sure] because he felt strong nationalism in the public of these countries.
[Source: The History Channel]
What is the difference between patriotism and nationalism ?
OR what is the critical point after which patriotism is seen as nationalism.
If you ask me then I think when one nation thinks its superoirty over other nations then patriotism become nationalism.

[Anonymous]

When does patriotism become nationalism?
From the very begining, I think.

[Al Newman]

It's a natural tendency from the earliest ages.
Mine is better than yours. Or bigger...
I'm missing the US right now. I've been away for about 2 1/2 years.

[R K Singh]

Originally posted by Alfred Neumann:
Mine is better than yours. [/QB]

But mine is the best[beyond comparison].

[R K Singh]

Enough jokes.
From the very begining, I think.
Being patriotic is different from being nationalist.
A nationalist thinks that his is better than others.
But patriotism, IMO, is loving your country. And if other love their country then it does not matter.
But nationlist WANTS others to love HIS country. :roll:
The feeling of BETTER than yours made Hitler to create concentration camps.
When does anyone cross the the line of patriotism and lands up in the land of natinalism.
[ December 04, 2003: Message edited by: R K Singh ]

[Tim Baker]

actually hitler was more of a racist than a nationalist.

[Arjun Shastry]

{
But nationlist WANTS others to love HIS country.
}
Nationalist does not necessarily mean (s)he loves his/her country.Basically they want to show that they are patriotic.True patriot need not necessarily wake up at 4.30 AM on independence day and wear some traditional dress or carry some sticker like 'united we stand' or 'Mera Bharat Mahan' on his/her vehicle.I think doing any work honestly should qualify for patritism.

[HS Thomas]

Originally posted by R K Singh:

Charlie Chaplin left Germany and Romania[not sure] because he felt strong nationalism in the public of these countries.
[Source: The History Channel]

Charlie Chaplin was English AFAIK. He might have left England because of some scandal in his family or Hollywood beckoned.
Albert Einstein left Germany.
Most politicians preach nationalism , very little about patriotism, because of diversity in things to be patriotic about..
Nationalism is one way of pulling patriotisms together, IMHO , but there can be an evil side to nationalism.Diplomacy is the patriotic lying for one's country. as someone said...

[Al Newman]

I guess I'm a patriot then. I love the US but don't feel that it's a comarison. I accept that some may feel that India or France or the Ukraine is better.
What I'd like to see from people (particularly outside the US) is more consistentcy. I see Russians criticizing the US for doing things much milder than what Russia is doing in Chechnya for example.
I'd like to see more Frenchmen looking at their own country more critically. In the meantime I haven't been to France in a year and conciously avoid French products.

[HS Thomas]

Originally posted by Alfred Neumann:
I'm missing the US right now. I've been away for about 2 1/2 years.

You are not suggesting the US is better !
I thought by now you'd be missing it like a...(I'm lost for words)
Only joking! I think there's a lot to like / love about the US. And a lot to be learnt from American society but not at the expense of smothering other nations of the right to grow morally as they wish. But there is little evidence of that happening in other countries though history proves them capable (even in the UK).
Perhaps there is need for a code for "International Morality" but I'm not sure the US alone will provide it..And why should anyone expect the US to ? Over time they alone did not create their society but adapted from other nations. But one cannot deny that the final result is theirs alone...
[ December 04, 2003: Message edited by: HS Thomas ]

[R K Singh]

Originally posted by HS Thomas:
Nationalism is one way of pulling patriotisms together, IMHO , but there can be an evil side to nationalism.

But when patriots start pulling others together and become nationalist

[John Smith]

I see several things.
First, most people think that their own country is the best in the world, which is a fallacy, of course.
Second, people are encouraged to think that way by their governments and the fellow citizens. The country becomes almost like your parent, and the love for your country is a social norm reinforced by the judicial system (think of treason and draft dodging). In the eyes of the state, the loyalty to your country overrides any other values that you may have (remember "The English Patient"?).
Finally, patriotism, nationalism, and chauvinism are all degrees of the same thing, -- the belief in the superiority of one's country. It's nothing but an institutionalized and legitimized form of racism. When Alexander The Great came to visit Diogenes, he stood in the entrance of Diogenes' filthy hole and asked what he, the ruler of the entire world, could do for Diogenes. Diogenes replied, "You can stand out of my light." Diogenes considered himself the citizen of the world, and patriotism was just rubbish to him, a false value.

[HS Thomas]

I think everyone is a patriot to some extent of their country just patriotic about different things. But patriotism + diplomacy about things one is not patriotic about makes nationalism IMHO.
I think this link is relevant:
An Accidental Diplomat

The entry for diplomacy in Ambrose Bierce's masterpiece of Victorian cynicism, the 'Devil's Dictionary', is typically succinct: "Diplomacy (n.) - The patriotic art of lying for one's country." Bierce should really have added "and biting one's tongue", given how devastating a misplaced phrase or casual aside can be in the hypersensitive world of international relations.
This strain between the limitations of diplomatic language and the natural impulses of the writer is palpable in Eamon Delaney's candid and garrulous account of eight years spent as a Third Secretary in Ireland's Department of Foreign Affairs.
Delaney has produced a memoir crammed with fascinating detail and memorable characters, while painting a picture of himself as a somewhat reluctant and incredulous bit-player on the broad stage of world affairs.

[ December 04, 2003: Message edited by: HS Thomas ]

[HS Thomas]

I thought by now you'd be missing it like a...(I'm lost for words)
Found the words ...like a hole in the head.
References to your gun laws.

[Kevin Thompson]

I think of patriotism and nationalism as the same thing.
A fatal disease.
Lots of people die gruesome and early deaths from patriotism and nationalism.
I keep hearing about "the greatest generation" that fought & made sacrifices during WWII. I disagree completely! I think the greatest generation is the generation that says HELL NO! to patriotism & nationalism.
Kevin
[ December 04, 2003: Message edited by: Kevin Thompson ]

[Al Newman]

Originally posted by HS Thomas:

You are not suggesting the US is better !

There are times when there is no doubt that the US is much better. Closing time at the high street pubs. Or anytime after about 7:30 Friday evening when the drunks begin coming out to favor the rest of us with their wisdom and insight (such as it is).
No. I'm currently tired of living among people who seemingly cannot even begin to understand the way I think and feel. I'd like just once to work for a manager who doesn't seem to believe that the way to motivate an employee is to work him like a dog for a month or six then trash his best efforts at the end.

Originally posted by HS Thomas:

I thought by now you'd be missing it like a...(I'm lost for words)

A second arsehole?

Originally posted by HS Thomas:

Only joking! I think there's a lot to like / love about the US. And a lot to be learnt from American society but not at the expense of smothering other nations of the right to grow morally as they wish. But there is little evidence of that happening in other countries though history proves them capable (even in the UK).

Smothering other nations from the right to grow morally as they wish?!!! How so?
I might phrase it slightly differently after the past year or so. Americans may be inhibiting others from their right to wax moralistically as they wish. By stuffing it back down their throats. Us Yanks: Not only ignorant violent and uncultured; we also lack manners. Pareticularly when being lectured by our betters.

Originally posted by HS Thomas:

Perhaps there is need for a code for "International Morality" but I'm not sure the US alone will provide it..And why should anyone expect the US to ? Over time they alone did not create their society but adapted from other nations. But one cannot deny that the final result is theirs alone...

International Morality? The US won't provide it. The EU is the one pushing this (see the ICC treaty). International Morality will be judged in Europe by Europeans upon anyone who will listen. Which audience mostly consists of the US and Canada. That's what the ICC is about.
Europe seems to have forgotten something fundamental about the US. The US was settled by europeans who dissented from what was going on in the mother country! Some of the original settlers left rather than be killed and many more fled opression at the hands of European 'elites'.
The country was formed in opposition to aristocrats forcing their vision of what was good down the throats of our dissenting forefathers. What makes you think that we'll accept that now from their descendants? Why should we accept that?
[ December 04, 2003: Message edited by: Alfred Neumann ]

[R K Singh]

Originally posted by Kevin Thompson:
I think of patriotism and nationalism as the same thing.

No, I think it is different.
It is different like being proud/having self-respect of one self and being "over proud"*.
* I am sure, 'over proud' is not the correct word. In Hindi I will say "Ghamandi".

[Al Newman]

I think the distinction between patriotism and nationalism is perfectly obvious.
Ones justified belief that ones country is the best in the world is commendable patriotism.
The Foreigner's false belief that his country is best is vicious nationalism!
Now that I've set you straight go forth and all try to be like Americans. Make us Yanks proud!
[ December 04, 2003: Message edited by: Alfred Neumann ]

[R K Singh]

Originally posted by Alfred Neumann:
Ones justified belief that ones country is the best in the world is commendable patriotism.
The Foreigner's false belief that his country is best is vicious nationalism!

BTW I was not talking about foreigner's view.
Now that I've set you straight go forth and all try to be like Americans. Make us Yanks proud!
And when Indian sees them practising Yoga etc. Make Hindustani feel proud.
And he feels more proud for not following American morals.
[ December 04, 2003: Message edited by: R K Singh ]

[Al Newman]

Originally posted by R K Singh:

And he feels more proud for not following American morals.

As we feel proud for not following Hindustani morals, RK.
One little word. Untouchables. QED.....

[HS Thomas]

I should think Yoga is practised more in the States than in India by now, Ravish.
Alfred, that was some straight talking of the patriotic kind.
Thought : Would you have been as patriotic if you were still living in the States surrounded by people who share your beliefs ? Not that the English would want to lose your talents and Managers can act like a hole in the head.
So that's what Yanks call a hole in the head these days.

[HS Thomas]

Originally posted by Eugene Kononov:
I see several things.
First, most people think that their own country is the best in the world, which is a fallacy, of course.
Second, people are encouraged to think that way by their governments and the fellow citizens. The country becomes almost like your parent, and the love for your country is a social norm reinforced by the judicial system (think of treason and draft dodging). In the eyes of the state, the loyalty to your country overrides any other values that you may have (remember "The English Patient"?).

All those numbers can fool one some.It's up to people to decide if they are happy or not. There are degrees of unhapiness not all that can be blamed on the government. A thought is that people be more content if they accept the
ideology(patriotism,nationalism,racism) of the government.
[/QB]

When Alexander The Great came to visit Diogenes, he stood in the entrance of Diogenes' filthy hole and asked what he, the ruler of the entire world, could do for Diogenes. Diogenes replied, "You can stand out of my light." Diogenes considered himself the citizen of the world, and patriotism was just rubbish to him, a false value.

There's this version of the story:
"Curious to see the one who exhibited such haughty independence of spirit, Alexander went in search of him and found him sitting in his tub in the sun. "I am Alexander the Great," said the monarch. "And I am Diogenes the Cynic,"replied the philosopher. Alexander then requested that he would inform him what service he could render him. "Stand from between me and the sun," said the Cynic. Alexander, struck with the reply, said to his friends, who were ridiculing the whimsical singularity of the philosopher, "If I were not Alexander, I should wish to be Diogenes." This story is too good to be omitted, but there are several circumstances which in some degree diminish its credibility."

[R K Singh]

Originally posted by Alfred Neumann:

As we feel proud for not following Hindustani morals, RK.
One little word. Untouchables. QED.....

Being untouchable or poor is much better than having 3 moms and 4 dads
OR not getting taxi in night. [racism]
OR to be killed for trespassing.
OR becoming grandparent without son-in-law.
Sorry, but you invited this. I was not talking about or comparing any country.
I am not talking about any country. I did not take any country's name to make this thread safe from 'US mania'.
But some how it happend, for no reason, like Iraq-war.
So let us not take any country name.

[R K Singh]

Originally posted by HS Thomas:
I should think Yoga is practised more in the States than in India by now, Ravish.

Now, "Zero" is used by whole world.
Let me feel proud for belonging to its origin place.

[Al Newman]

Originally posted by HS Thomas:

Alfred, that was some straight talking of the patriotic kind.
Thought : Would you have been as patriotic if you were still living in the States surrounded by people who share your beliefs ? Not that the English would want to lose your talents and Managers can act like a hole in the head.

Probably. You probably can't imagine the effect 9-11 had on people like me. It was a sudden massive change in world-view. Like being raped I imagine.
I would hope that I'm not too chauvenistic, but I've been a little since the first time a Brit informed me post September 11th that the US had had it coming. On the 12th I think. I was coming out of shock by then and beginning to feel as though I had an invisible bulls-eye target painted on my back. I invited him to kiss my culo (if you grok Italian). The wrong atttitude completely, of course.

Originally posted by HS Thomas:
So that's what Yanks call a hole in the head these days.

I felt that way in Clinton's America. A second arsehole with a bad case of piles. Clinton was much easier to take living in Italy where he didn't dominate the news. Many things are easier to take in Italy. Just ask for another espresso con Grappa and relax. Or Un petit bicchieri vino rosso.....
Not that Bush's America is much better in that respect, but for reasons concerning the behavior of the opposition, not the President....

[Al Newman]

Originally posted by R K Singh:
[QB]
Being untouchable or poor is much better than having 3 moms and 4 dads
OR not getting taxi in night. [racism]
OR to be killed for trespassing.
OR becoming grandparent without son-in-law.
QB]

I think not. The caste system is worse by far than any but the most aggrevated forms of racism. It's more like being a slave or a serf I think.

[R K Singh]

Originally posted by Alfred Neumann:
I think not.

And for me those things are beyond imagination.
AW as I said, no one[at least I dont want] is talking about any particular country OR talking about all countries.
Please forgive this thread and me for not involving "US" name in the discussion.
I think we can discuss without using word US or India or any other country name. [obviously if you want.]

[HS Thomas]

Originally posted by R K Singh:

Please forgive this thread and me for not involving "US" name in the discussion.
I think we can discuss without using word US or India or any other country name. [obviously if you want.]

Have you been bludgeoned out of your mind ?
If you don't mention countries how are we gonna know you mean country of origin quoting your examples [ Yoga , getting taxi at night , 3 moms and 4 dads , untouchability (OK, bar this last one) ]

[Paul McKenna]

This thread was starting out nicely until country names and individual faults started diverting the conversation from the actual topic. It would be in the best interest for everyone to just drop the names and faults of specific countries.
I digress, now my contribution to this thread:
Patriotism is your willingness to stand up for your country (country of birth or adopted country) when you believe that its best interests are at stake. Just like anything else, excessive patriotism is bad.. it leads to nationalism.
Nationalism is a form of stupidity that is given birth to by excessive patriotism. I would define nationalist as a person who stands up for his country even though the said country's actions are clearly of bad choice. Example: Soliders in the Waffen SS unit of WW2 Germany. They knew they were persecuting innocent civilian on purpose and still believed they were right because it was in the best interest of Germany

[R K Singh]

Originally posted by HS Thomas:

Have you been bludgeoned out of your mind ?
If you don't mention countries how are we gonna know you mean country of origin quoting your examples [ Yoga , getting taxi at night , 3 moms and 4 dads , untouchability (OK, bar this last one) ]

OK, agree I should have avoided it
Now that I've set you straight go forth and all try to be like Americans. Make us Yanks proud!
And even tried to avoid by simply telling that its not the case but ..
And now I hope we will listen the plea of PMc.

[Frank Silbermann]

Patriotism is love of one's home country and the people who live there. Nationalism is the desire for gain or maintain national independence, e.g. India in the late 1940s, or the Palestinians today.
Nationalism / patriotism is a collective analog of self-esteem.
There's nothing inherently wrong with nationalism unless it exhibits an intolerance towards other nations' nationalism or takes pleasure in their humiliation. Just as self-esteem is a good thing, as long as it does not rely upon the destruction of other people's self-esteem.

[R K Singh]

Originally posted by Paul McKenna:
Patriotism is your willingness to stand up for your country (country of birth or adopted country) when you believe that its best interests are at stake. Just like anything else, excessive patriotism is bad.. it leads to nationalism.
Nationalism is a form of stupidity that is given birth to by excessive patriotism. I would define nationalist as a person who stands up for his country even though the said country's actions are clearly of bad choice. Example: Soliders in the Waffen SS unit of WW2 Germany. They knew they were persecuting innocent civilian on purpose and still believed they were right because it was in the best interest of Germany

Question still remains unanswered.
When patriotism becomes nationalism ??
[ December 04, 2003: Message edited by: R K Singh ]

[Eleison Zeitgeist]

Originally posted by R K Singh:

Being untouchable or poor is much better than having 3 moms and 4 dads
OR not getting taxi in night. [racism]
OR to be killed for trespassing.
OR becoming grandparent without son-in-law.
Sorry, but you invited this. I was not talking about or comparing any country.
I am not talking about any country. I did not take any country's name to make this thread safe from 'US mania'.
But some how it happend, for no reason, like Iraq-war.
So let us not take any country name.

Your watching too much "Jenny Jones"; I think one time you said you never even visited the US... that seemingly the case, lets not go into stereotypes that are feed to you by your "biased" media. Not everyone here in the US have:
having 3 moms and 4 dads
OR not getting taxi in night. [racism]
OR to be killed for trespassing.
OR becoming grandparent without son-in-law.
Actually only a minority do; by following what you have posted (on this thread and many others), all I can say is that you are Jealous of the United States. Your "When does patriotism become nationalism" thread is another form (thinly disguised) of trying to "take down" the United states. On this board there is a lot of US patriotism, you are trying to turn it into nationalism... kinda inferring that the us is full of nationalism and is thus evil. All I can say to this is the following (while doing the monkey boy dance a la Steve Ballmer):
USA.... USA... USA... rocks!!!
You'all.... You'all... You'all.... suck!!!

:-) please take what I say at with a grain of salt. I could be wrong. Just a thought Singh...
-Eleison
[ December 04, 2003: Message edited by: Eleison Zeitgeist ]

[R K Singh]

Originally posted by Frank Silbermann:
Patriotism is love of one's home country and the people who live there. Nationalism is the desire for gain or maintain national independence, e.g. India in the late 1940s, or the Palestinians today.

I never thought in that direction.
Can a struggle for freedom be called nationalism ??
[ December 04, 2003: Message edited by: R K Singh ]

[R K Singh]

Originally posted by Eleison Zeitgeist:

Not everyone here in the US have:
having 3 moms and 4 dads

OK, let us agree at 2 moms and 3 dads
:-) please take what I say at with a grain of salt. I could be wrong. Just a thought Zeitgeist...
I think one time you said you never even visited the US...
Neither those who talk about castism visited India.
right ??
They dont know what is social happening in India.
[before Karamchari comes, I better run away ]
AW again request, do not take countries name.
If you want to compare India and US then you can start a new thread.
[My suugestion, dont do it, because you know the reason ]

[R K Singh]

Originally posted by Eleison Zeitgeist:

On this board there is a lot of US patriotism, you are trying to turn it into nationalism...

I dont think I have taken any country name while refering nationalism/patriotism.
If one think that everyone, all the time, talks about him and "his" country then seriously it happens because of serious and uninterrupted wrong kinda thoughts in "mind" and becuase of unsecurity; which makes one to think that everyone is talking about him.
I heard that its curable.

[Jason Menard]

[Thomas Paul]

Main Entry: na�tion�al�ism
Pronunciation: 'nash-n&-"li-z&m, 'na-sh&-n&l-"i-z&m
Function: noun
Date: 1844
: loyalty and devotion to a nation; especially : a sense of national consciousness exalting one nation above all others and placing primary emphasis on promotion of its culture and interests as opposed to those of other nations or supranational groups

Main Entry: pa�tri�ot�ism
Pronunciation: 'pA-trE-&-"ti-z&m, chiefly British 'pa-
Function: noun
Date: circa 1726
: love for or devotion to one's country

[Eleison Zeitgeist]

Originally posted by Jason Menard:
Please don't feed the troll.

:-) :-) People do many things for many reasons. Singh's question, with closer inspection, is inane -- not even worthy of an intelligent debate. The answer can easily be found in any dictionary (e.g., www.dictionary.com, look up the words "patriotism" and "nationalism" -- as my college literature prof. would say: compare and contrast).
If the question is inane (as I propose), why would a person post it? Is there something hidden in the subconscious? Why post something under the guise of "lets not name-names of countries" when everyone knows what countries he is referring to? What is the reason to this "madness" :-) Personally, after having debated with Singh about the ME situation, the Iraq invasion, etc... while I noticed IMHO cogent arguments made against his positions, he has yielded very little in his general, overt ideology -- America is bad (3moms, 2 dads, a goat in the bed room, etc:-). Underneath it all, IMHO, he probably is very jealous of the US and just trying to "berate" the US. ELSE, cut to the point. What are you trying to say? What is the real question?
-Eleison

ps. just trying to read between the lines...

[John Smith]

Main Entry: na�tion�al�ism
Pronunciation: 'nash-n&-"li-z&m, 'na-sh&-n&l-"i-z&m
Function: noun
Date: 1844

Looks like a manifest.mf file inside a jar.