I will fight for .....

[R K Singh]

I eat any edible. What you can eat I can also eat. The only reason for that I think when this human can eat then why not me.
So once I was asked what if I was with cannibals, would you eat 'that' meat too ??
It was difficult question ??
When I can eat beef, camel, shark, pork, crab, chicken etc.. then what is the problem in 'that' meat ??
I knew what would be the face expession of the person if I would say YES. He would make ugliest face on the earth like someone has put sh#t in his mouth and then he would say, disgusting .. you can eat that meat too .. cheee..
And then other day I was sitting with a person who was pure vegetarian. He did not know that I was non-vegetarian. And when he came to know that I eat meat too, his face was just like that... disgusting, how can you eat meat. He asked, who had given you right to kill animal for your appetite ?
Vegetarian thinks that he is superior because he doesnt eat meat.
Non-vegetarian thinks that he is superior because he doesnot eat 'that' meat.
Cannibals ... would like to meet one and ask how do they decide whom to eat tonight ??
I guess he will also feel superior becasue ... I dont know I had to meet one to tell the reason.
I want everyone to be vegetarian. It is good for health. Its good for animals also who dont have to die for human. Its good for environment.
You also dont get madcow or bird flu by eating veg.
Can any one site one negative point of being vegetarian ?
SO I WANT ALL NATION IN THIS WORLD TO BE VEGETARIAN.
PS: did I tell what I would do if I was with cannibals ??
I wont do anything, they will do everything. I wish I will be as tasty as any other meat.
Ranting over.... thanks for your patience.

[Jeroen Wenting]

What about all those little plants whose lifes you're cutting short (no pun intended)?
Beans and seeds are the children of other plants...
It has now been proven that plants have something similar to the pain reflexes in animals.
Take it further: are you also planning on killing all carniverous animals because they kill other animals?
Man's a carniverous animal too you know...
[ February 09, 2004: Message edited by: Jeroen Wenting ]

[Paul McKenna]

Originally posted by Jeroen Wenting:

Man's a carniverous animal too you know...

Correction.. man is an omnivorous creature

[R K Singh]

Originally posted by Jeroen Wenting:
Man's a carniverous animal too you know...

I just googled and found this page.
HTH
BTW what will you eat if you are with cannibals ??
[ February 09, 2004: Message edited by: R K Singh ]

[R K Singh]

Originally posted by Jeroen Wenting:
What about all those little plants whose lifes you're cutting short (no pun intended)?
Beans and seeds are the children of other plants...
It has now been proven that plants have something similar to the pain reflexes in animals.
Take it further: are you also planning on killing all carniverous animals because they kill other animals?
Man's a carniverous animal too you know...

Thanks Jeroen ....
I wanted to address you from last name but I was told that its not considered good manner in some part of earth so here I am addressing you with your first name.
I liked your post and thats what I wanted to say.
Everyone has a 'valid reason' to support his own doings. And for some that is disgusting while other does not feel that way at all.
And who thinks that to be disgusting, feels superior to other.
[ February 09, 2004: Message edited by: R K Singh ]

[Rufus BugleWeed]

I thought all those people on the east coast at the Chi Chi's got samonella or hepetitis from eating green onions.

[R K Singh]

Originally posted by Rufus BugleWeed:
I thought all those people on the east coast at the Chi Chi's got samonella or hepetitis from eating green onions.

I like it, when people dont have any argument
So how many are here to make whole world vegetarian ??
And if they dont want to make whole world vegetarian then please come up with solid argument not like the above one.

[Arjun Shastry]

What about those people whose jobs are directly dependent on animals.People having poultries.What about fishermen? Will you able to provide them jobs?There are many in the world who eat nonvege bcos they can't afford quality pulses,grain etc

[Jeroen Wenting]

I don't personally mind if people prefer to not eat a certain type of food (for me it's sprouts and cabbage), but what I DO mind is if they make a (semi-)religious issue out of it.
You were insinuating that vegitarianism should be forced upon the entire population of the world by force if needed, which makes it a religious issue.
Maybe Man started off as an omnivore, but that still means we're meateaters...
Even the big cats eat their veggies, albeit mainly in the form of the stomach content of their prey animals because they cannot digest plant matter directly (similarly, we need ours softened up as well by cooking most of it...).

[Keith Wilson]

...as a man once said, if God hadn't wanted me to eat animals then he wouldn't have made them out of meat.
Simple really.

[Joe King]

I suppose that in an over-crowded world, it is more efficient to feed everyone on vegetarian food rather than on meat - each cow needs loads of space full of grass to eat, but the same space could feed more people than the cow if it was used for grain/vegies etc.
OTOH, I dont think I would like to live in a world with no pepperoni pizzas....

[R K Singh]

Originally posted by Keith Wilson:
...as a man once said, if God hadn't wanted me to eat animals then he wouldn't have made them out of meat.
Simple really.

Donkey is also made up of meat.
What about rat ??
What abt snake ??
What abt man ??
All are made up of meat
.....
Economic part we will see later ..
Apart from that are we for Vegetarian world ??

[jyothsna kumari]

hi,
If all becomes vegetarians- increase in animal population and decrease in plants.
If al becomes non vegetarians -decrease in animal population and increase in plants.
so some has to be vegetarians and some non vegetarians to make the eath a happy place to live in.
Jyothsna

[Jeroen Wenting]

Originally posted by Joe King:
I suppose that in an over-crowded world, it is more efficient to feed everyone on vegetarian food rather than on meat - each cow needs loads of space full of grass to eat, but the same space could feed more people than the cow if it was used for grain/vegies etc.
OTOH, I dont think I would like to live in a world with no pepperoni pizzas....

I wouldn't want to live in such an overcrowded world, pepperoni pizza or none.
That's one reason I am a big proponent of the colonisation of space and the development of interstellar travel and terraforming technologies.
We'll need that to survive as well as to scratch the human itch towards exploration and expansion.
If we don't I see only constant global war in the future, ending ultimately in the destruction of the human race as a civilised species.

[Jeroen Wenting]

Originally posted by R K Singh:

Donkey is also made up of meat.
What about rat ??
What abt snake ??
What abt man ??
All are made up of meat

donkeys are food, snakes are food, rats are food, men are food.
Maybe not all are regular food for Man, but people have eaten all of them at some point and other carnivores have too.

[Bela Bardak]

Originally posted by Jeroen Wenting:

I don't personally mind if people prefer to not eat a certain type of food (for me it's sprouts and cabbage), but what I DO mind is if they make a (semi-)religious issue out of it.
You were insinuating that vegitarianism should be forced upon the entire population of the world by force if needed, which makes it a religious issue.

Sounds good to me. We are the Borg. Resistance is Futile.....

[Joe King]

Originally posted by Jeroen Wenting:

I wouldn't want to live in such an overcrowded world, pepperoni pizza or none.
That's one reason I am a big proponent of the colonisation of space and the development of interstellar travel and terraforming technologies.
We'll need that to survive as well as to scratch the human itch towards exploration and expansion.
If we don't I see only constant global war in the future, ending ultimately in the destruction of the human race as a civilised species.

Agreed. Especially as we are making a more and more complicated system of trade where most countries rely on imported resources from some other coutntry. We're reaching a point where a reletively small disaster could cause huge side effects. Also, for the capitalists out there, capitalism relies on being able to expand (we measure the success of a capitalist economy by its growth rate), so if we stay on earth there will eventually be no room for expansion. Basically we have to either have to continue a constant expansion off earth, or give up capitalism.

[HS Thomas]

The insect world provides a lot of nourishment. Knowingly I've tried a fat juicy Queen Ant, gnats for free in summer time. What do you think the "I'm a Celebrity : Get me Out of Here" programme was all about ? Re-education in the food department. In a book there's a snap of this old African man with a face squirmed in disgust at this Western man eating out of a can . You need to see the picture to see the full extent of his horror.
Besides, if you have your own fruit and veg garden , they have insects in them sometimes. Your quality control isn't bound to be as good as Safeways or Tescos.
From the link so generously provided below :
"By weight, termites, grasshoppers, caterpillars, weevils, house flies and spiders are better sources of protein than beef, chicken, pork or lamb according to the Entomological Society of America. Also, insects are low in cholesterol and low in fat.
If Americans could tolerate more insects (bugs) in what they eat, farmers could significantly reduce the amount of pesticides applied each year. It is better to eat more insects and less pesticide residue. If the U.S. Food and Drug Administration would relax the limit for insects and their parts (double the allowance) in food crops, U.S. farmers could significantly apply less pesticide each year. Fifty years ago, it was common for an apple to have worms inside, bean pods with beetle bites and cabbage with worm eaten leaves."
[ February 10, 2004: Message edited by: HS Thomas ]

[R K Singh]

Originally posted by jyothsna kumari:
hi,
If all becomes vegetarians- increase in animal population and decrease in plants.

First let me clear you, all/most of them, ediable meats are developed/grown in forms.
So by not eating them wont increase their population.
Is this the reason you eat meat ??

[Rufus BugleWeed]

Can any one site one negative point of being vegetarian ?

I just gave you one small point about eating green onions.
On the grassland issue of cows wasting so many acres - that grassland is not well suited to growing other crops. Unless people want to invest a lot more labor into raising food, cows are the most economic method to grow food on that land. Being that many people like their food cheap, cows will continue.

[R K Singh]

Originally posted by Rufus BugleWeed:

cows will continue.

I am in favor of men and you are talking about only cow
Why not men in that way we can control population also .. .. And it could be a other way to control immigration too ..
look food, health all problems are solved
I just gave you one small point about eating green onions
There are lot of poisionous plant. Dont eat them.
OK let me summarise the pros of eating meat:

the most economic method to grow food

Beans and seeds are the children of other plants... (veg. are also killer )

at the Chi Chi's got samonella or hepetitis from eating green onions.(one can get diseases from veg. also)

God hadn't wanted me to eat .. (Though God has nothing to do with veg & non-veg but still. OK, God wants us to eat meat )

I like pepperoni pizzas....

to make the earth a happy place to live in.

donkeys are food, snakes are food, rats are food, men are food.

give up capitalism. (as usual blame it on capatilism )

so that we dont have colonies out side earth.

[Last but not least]

Man's a carniverous animal (though some believe, he is omnivorous)

The most sensible answer out of these I found is "I like pepperoni pizzas....". It makes sense. I eat for taste. But can we kill someone for our taste.
Then whats wrong with sniper, he also enjoys killing. Difference is that you kill animal and he kills man... [though man is also animal. But for the time being I will not count man as animal. OK let me re-phrase it, man is social animal. But again its different story that there are some better social animals in animal kingdom like ant or bee... ... So let us assume that we are not animal]
So when we will stop being barbaric and become civilized ... and even when all of us know that eating meat is not good, lets say, for only one reason that one has to kill animal.
SO when are we going to make "all nations" in this world veggy nation ??

[Thomas Paul]

Originally posted by Jeroen Wenting:
You were insinuating that vegitarianism should be forced upon the entire population of the world by force if needed...

That's right. And anyone who disagrees we kill them and eat them.

[HS Thomas]

donkeys are food, snakes are food, rats are food, men are food.
and insects. Insects as Human Food
"In the United States, some restaurants (Washington, DC) are incorporating insects into their recipe books and menus. On the menu are interesting dishes such as stir-fried mealworms and caterpillar crunch (a combination of trail mix and fried caterpillars). Insects can be substituted for everyday recipe ingredients. Tom Turpin, Professor of Entomology at Purdue University enjoys "chocolate chirpy chips" which is a variation of chocolate chip cookies. He uses the chocolate chip cookie recipe but adds roasted crickets to the cookie dough before baking. The cricket's wings and legs are removed before roasting."
"An issue of the Food Insects Newsletter reports that 80 percent of the world's population eats insects intentionally and 100 percent eat them unintentionally. "
Add these to your word list :
microlivestock
Entomophagy
[ February 10, 2004: Message edited by: HS Thomas ]

[R K Singh]

Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
That's right. And anyone who disagrees we kill them and eat them.

When democracy can be forced/gifted then why not Vegocracy ??

[R K Singh]

Originally posted by R K Singh:

When democracy can be forced/gifted then why not Vegocracy ??

and thats also when no one is able to give any sensible reason for being non-veg ??
I dont think any non-vegetarian eats meat to keep running economics of his country or not to have colonies in other planets or to keep balance between food.
So when are we giving freedom to these people who eat meat ??

[Bert Bates]

Rufus,
Cows are cheap?

On the grassland issue of cows wasting so many acres - that grassland is not well suited to growing other crops. Unless people want to invest a lot more labor into raising food, cows are the most economic method to grow food on that land. Being that many people like their food cheap, cows will continue.

Some small percentage of cows are pastured on grassland in sustainable numbers, i.e. the number of cows per acre that don't rip the grassland to shreds. However, most cows don't live this way, and are in fact corn fed. (And of course, since cows aren't designed to eat corn, we do all sorts of unsustainable things to make that practice "work correctly"). This is not cheap! In fact each pound of beef requires about 2000 gallons of water to produce, when you factor in the water required to grow the corn. The ONLY reason beef is relatively cheap in the US is because ranchers and farmers are given enormous water subsidies, thus the true cost of the beef is hidden.
(Chickens by the way need about 500 gallons / pound.)
Now, what if we reduced water subsidies over a period of say, a decade? The true cost (as opposed to the price), of the beef would slowly start rising. People would complain, as beef *prices* slowly followed the cost, upward. Prices might level out at say $30 per pound. This would be a good thing, because the reality is folks, that this planet ain't big enough to sustain 6 billion cheeseburger eaters.
The other benefits of this plan would be:
- Give our beleaguered aquafers a chance to replenish themselves
- Give our beleaguered topsoil a rest.

[Jason Cox]

Factoring in the water to grow the corn seems a little silly. The farmers growing the corn, most of which would be irrigation farmers, make money off the corn anyway. It's not like there is a corn shortage in this country, so feeding it to cows is not a great waste.
You're right, we can't feed the entire world beef, but the US also gives incentives to farmers not to grow too much or the price of certain products, such as wheat, would drop to a point where it would be next to worthless.
The US could easily produce enough grains and vegetables to support ourselves and probably several third world countries. However, because this practice would probably bankrupt our agricultural economy we don't feed the world like we could.
Beef really is a luxury in the US, but because our food production is so effective we can afford to raise cattle in addition to growing crops. In a less developed country, raising and slaughtering cows for food would be downright wasteful.
I come from a family of farmers, so it's not a foreign subject for me that I learned about listening from some pundit. The US doesn't need to be vegetarian and there is plenty of food for all. I can also tell you from my previous experience in government (non-IT) that there are enough food programs out there that no one in the US should be going hungry. Eating for free is quite possible if you're poor enough.

[Thomas Paul]

Originally posted by Bert Bates:
The ONLY reason beef is relatively cheap in the US is because ranchers and farmers are given enormous water subsidies, thus the true cost of the beef is hidden.

So why is it that imported beef isn't more expensive since I assume that they are not getting big subsidies from the US government?

[Eleison Zeitgeist]

Originally posted by R K Singh:

I am in favor of men and you are talking about only cow
Why not men in that way we can control population also .. .. And it could be a other way to control immigration too ..
look food, health all problems are solved

We don't eat people because it is taboo; our brain is hardwired not to eat species of "our type".... As a matter of fact, a more an animal is similar to us, the less inclined we are to eat them. This makes sense because if our brains allowed us to "eat people"; our brains would think less of killing people -- this would obviously be bad for the general human species whose ultimate goal is to propagate.
On the topic of vegetarian; biologically, according to doctors, it is against human nature... It is more or less a luxury; humans have always eaten other animals and will continue to.
-Eleison

[Axel Janssen]

Originally posted by Bert Bates:

The true cost (as opposed to the price), of the beef would slowly start rising.

With higher prices cattle raising would be again more profitable in Argentine, Uruguay, Southern Brazil and maybe Australia and some other parts of the world(don't know). The herds would grow to the level of the 1890-30 period. This would excert a little counter-pressure to bring prices down.
With less subsidies, US could excert better pressure against EU agriculture policy. EU will cut subsidies, I pay less taxes and eat meat of a better quality.
regards Axel

[Mohan Panigrahi]

humans have always eaten other animals and will continue to.

From stone age man with no sense of civilization to the current times, from uncultured and boorish ways to mind boggling sophistication, it is ironic, that over times man has hardly changed at all - man is still eating meat!

[Bert Bates]

Factoring in the water to grow the corn seems a little silly. The farmers growing the corn, most of which would be irrigation farmers, make money off the corn anyway. It's not like there is a corn shortage in this country, so feeding it to cows is not a great waste.

Hold on here! Most American farmers are not farming in a sustainable way. Fields are not allowed to fallow long enough, crops are not rotated properly, and top soil is eroding (the country has about 1/2 the top soil it did 100 years ago, and top soil doesn't regenerate quickly at all). Our farm land is overused and stressed in many ways that are not sustainable. In a nutshell, we are extracting too much from our land, and we will not be able continue to do so. The US can't sustain 280 million cheeseburger eaters on its own land.
In addition our aquifers are being tapped beyond their capability to regenerate, so they are slowly running dry. (Well, actually not that slowly if you have any sort of long view.)
So feeding cows corn is a bad idea about a million ways to Sunday. (You wanna talk hormones and anit-biotics?)

[Rufus BugleWeed]

I spread 5K pounds of fertilizer last year and I believe my soils are better than they were.

You wanna talk hormones and anit-biotics?

Yes, I do. There's more hormones in an egg than a quarter pounder. Why don't you get on somebody elses back?

[Michael Ernest]

I don't eat much beef because I don't. Other foods are cheaper, keep longer, are better protein sources, and tastier besides. I don't find myself hungering for beef all that often, but when I want it, I have it.
Might have something to do with all those guts I saw at the fire department, hanging four inches over their belts and always, always, always craving beef. I've always suspected there's something in beef to stimulate the craving for more. I went off it myself for about two weeks once that turned into a year; never missed it.
I do make a point of buying organic eggs from farms that say they do not use chemical stimulants in the birds. Costs a bit more, but it's worth it to support sustainable agricultural practices.
[ February 10, 2004: Message edited by: Michael Ernest ]

[Jason Cox]

Hold on here! Most American farmers are not farming in a sustainable way. Fields are not allowed to fallow long enough, crops are not rotated properly, and top soil is eroding (the country has about 1/2 the top soil it did 100 years ago, and top soil doesn't regenerate quickly at all).

[This is a great response; I think this one sentence diminishes it -- MFE ] The US Government has put in programs to encourage crop rotation. Many farmers receive subsidaries to NOT grow crops on a certain percentage of their land for years at a time. Unfortunately, I don't remember the exact numbers because any farmland left in my family is rented out. However, I know that in order to continue to receive government money we cannot grow crops on 100% of our land and must continually rotate the fields in order to do so.
This has also addressed the issue of eroding top soil, which has been a decreasing problem since the government started taking active steps to get farmers to rotate crops. The problem before was that if a farmer wasn't growing crops in a field, they weren't making money. Although that did lack a certain short-term view, much could be said about the state of corporate America, so you can't be too harsh on the farmers of the past. Conservationism is actively at work in modern farms.

Our farm land is overused and stressed in many ways that are not sustainable. In a nutshell, we are extracting too much from our land, and we will not be able continue to do so. The US can't sustain 280 million cheeseburger eaters on its own land.

Which is funny when you consider how much the government pays out in subsidaries every year to control the production of grains and vegetables so they don't end up rotting in storage. We are far away from being in any sort of food or farmland crisis. I think a bigger problem is that farming has become so expensive that many small farmers are simply being pushed out. You almost have to be rich to begin with to get into farming.

In addition our aquifers are being tapped beyond their capability to regenerate, so they are slowly running dry. (Well, actually not that slowly if you have any sort of long view.)

Cloud-seeding, which used to be a popular practice, redistributed water away from our farmlands. It was a big problem in the late 80's and not something you ever heard a lot about unless you knew how it affected many farmers in the American midwest. It has actually been irresponsible environmental practices that has caused an unnatural shift. However, it is always funny when I hear about a shortage of water on planet Earth. We may have moved some resources where nature didn't intend, but the one thing I suspect we'll never do is "run dry".

So feeding cows corn is a bad idea about a million ways to Sunday. (You wanna talk hormones and anit-biotics?)

Let's not forget all of the chemicals that often go into the production of grown foodstuffs as well. Unless you're willing to shell out the extra money for "organic" products, anything you eat these days is laced with a multitude of man-made chemicals. It doesn't matter if its beef, poultry, fruits, or vegetables. I suppose the cropdusters that used to fly over the fields of my birthplace were just dropping powdered sugar or something?
If the extra corn and grains did not go to feeding cattle, it would go to waste. The US is can only export so much of it before our economy takes a hit. It doesn't do any good to send it to starving nations because their people are usually starving due to their own government. In short, if it didn't go to the cows, it would just be wasted. Of course, we could just not grow it, but then even more fields would sit empty. More than the government could subsidize, and possibly put some more farmers out of business. It will get to the point that no one will even want to grow food for the US (Hell, it's getting that way now!).
[ February 10, 2004: Message edited by: Michael Ernest ]

[Thomas Paul]

Originally posted by Eleison Zeitgeist:
We don't eat people because it is taboo; our brain is hardwired not to eat species of "our type".... As a matter of fact, a more an animal is similar to us, the less inclined we are to eat them. This makes sense because if our brains allowed us to "eat people"; our brains would think less of killing people -- this would obviously be bad for the general human species whose ultimate goal is to propagate.

There's another aspect to this. You are much more likely to get ill from eating a humna than from eating a cow. Most cow diseases and parasites can't live in humans.

[Bert Bates]

Rufus -
One windmill at a time
Rob,
I'm going to attempt the tricky MHE style of response (no net!),
Rob: ...so you can't be too harsh on the farmers of the past. Conservationism is actively at work in modern farms.
Bert: I'm more worried about the government and big-time agri-business. They both seem to be bent on short-term profits vs. long-term sustainability.
Rob: ... We are far away from being in any sort of food or farmland crisis.
Bert: I agree that we are currently able to produce enough food from our land, however we are still degrading our topsoil (even if it's slowed down), and we won't have any (topsoil), left in a 100 years or so.
Rob: I think a bigger problem is that farming has become so expensive that many small farmers are simply being pushed out. You almost have to be rich to begin with to get into farming.
Bert: I totally agree!
Rob: However, it is always funny when I hear about a shortage of water on planet Earth. We may have moved some resources where nature didn't intend, but the one thing I suspect we'll never do is "run dry".
Bert: To clarify, I'm talking about potable, fresh water. We may never run dry of "water", but our clean, fresh water supply is being depleted faster than mother earth can replenish it. For example the Ogalalla (sp?) aquifer is filled to a small fraction of what is was 50 years ago.
Rob: Unless you're willing to shell out the extra money for "organic" products, anything you eat these days is laced with a multitude of man-made chemicals.
Bert: This goes back to "cost" vs. "price". Of course the "price" of non-organic foods is lower, but "price" is an artificial concept. The cost of organic foods is probably lower than non-organic when you factor in the long term damage done by unsustainable methods.
Rob: If the extra corn and grains did not go to feeding cattle, it would go to waste.
Bert: We should only be growing what we can grow sustainably - and certainly if we don't need it we shouldn't grow it in the first place. How to compensate farmers for fallow fields is not a trivial problem, but it's also not unsolvable.

[Rufus BugleWeed]

AW, I think some vegans should fight for population control in a country where it's out of control. Perhaps the whole world could work on this.
I seems to me that an awful lot of fine farmland has been replaced by shoping malls and parking lots from Cahoga to Sennaca Falls and beyond.
I can't augue that my neighbors are good about soil or water conservation.
Starting out in farming in the US is just about as hard as getting a job as an IT professional.
Whose going to rant about GMOs?

[Joe King]

Look, if we didnt eat cows, pigs and chickens, then the only ones in existence would be in zoos. Their entire purpose in life (apart from chickens, which also have the crossing the road thing) is to feed us - without us meat eaters cows would just be another large smelly animal next door to the rhino enclosure. Besides, what would the welsh do without the sheep to entertain them on a cold winters evening? ;-)

[R K Singh]

Originally posted by Joe King:
Look, if we didnt eat cows, pigs and chickens, then the only ones in existence would be in zoos.

What do you say about dog, cat, rat or any other animal which you dont eat for what so ever reason ..