Is certification just a piece of paper?

[Billy Tsai]

I am doomed and screwed then.............
I can imagine me sleeping on the street....

[HS Thomas]

I wasn't trying to put you off, Billy.
Alfred's idea of a free project that companies would be interested in is a good place to start.
Think about the Masters/Phd later..
I'd think as the SCJD and SCEA are practical certifications, they'd be very useful.
regards
[ July 08, 2003: Message edited by: HS Thomas ]

[HS Thomas]

posted by Alfred Neumann:
New York University has the single really good adult education program I am aware of, though I suspect that Silicon Valley must also have good ones.

Certainly take it VERY seriously and raising their own standards: Must be all the heat from certifications.
Midpoint Test Now Winnows CUNY Students
regards
[ July 08, 2003: Message edited by: HS Thomas ]

[Billy Tsai]

well I am about to go broke and I dont have if I can take it anymore if I fail SCJD , i submitted it last month.
I can't afford to redo it again because my bank account balance is -500 and with 2 unpaid visa card bills and I used to visa card to pay for my exams not to spend reckless.
and I really need a good job with at least avg good pay so I cant afford to do any free projects

[HS Thomas]

I empathise. Soon I could be in the same boat . Good luck with the SCJD and hope it's your passport to success.
If possible, learn .Net and ORACLE/DB2/Sybase also to add more strings to your bow.
And try to be optimistic.
regards

[Billy Tsai]

I am learning Oracle right now after that SCBCD and SCEA(J2EE) as I already have/know MCDBA and took some advanced database systems paper when I was in university oracle shouldnt be too diffcult, I just hope I still have enough money.....................................................

[Al Newman]

Well Billy,
Sorry to say that you may have to push a broom or flip burgers for a time.
If that sounds callous, it is not meant so. I worked my way through college doing those things and continued after graduation while looking for employment.
In those days home PC's were expensive, so to do my project I audited a 1-credit class at my university (which cost about $20 tuition). This gave me access to a free timesharing account (limited to about 10 hours a week). So after finishing sweeping out the student union I went over to the computer center and worked on my project.
Needs must when the devil drives. This too shall end. You can always do volunteer work after your paying job ends. It's not much fun, but you already should have a helluva advantage on getting an entry-level job when the recession ends.
I would definately go to the public library and ask for the book Guerilla Tactics in the Job Market by Tom Jackson. They should have it in NZ, I would think, though it's 12 years since the last edition (which was Guerilla Tactics in the New Job Market I think). This book made a real difference in my life.
[ July 08, 2003: Message edited by: Alfred Neumann ]

[Matt Cao]

Hi Billy,
First, you need to get rid off the status quo mentality.
Second, you need to develop strategy and goal for your career. What I have seen so far, you only have goals but no strategy. Collectively, ranchers have been around, through up and down cycle of life. We try to help you on the strategy part.
Third, you only earned your undergrad degree for two months or so, it is still early state of the game.
Wny do you prefer to sleep on street while refuse to take a lessen responsibility job? It helps paid the bills allowing you to have money so you could plan for your goals. No money, nothing move. At the same time try to obtain free projects or two.
If you think by having the IT degree, labor market has to hire you or offer you a good project, I fear you still sleeping for all these years.
Regards,
MCao
[ July 08, 2003: Message edited by: Matt Cao ]

[Al Newman]

Billy Tsai asked:

SCBCD,SCEA, also OCP DBA as I am interested in Database and programming would that help me to get accepted??

HS Thomas replied:

Unfortunately, probably not, certification in itself, won't help you.

HS, I'm not as sure about this as you seem to be. First of all, Billy is a fairly rare bird in that he's strictly entry-level with an impressive load of certification credentials. If I saw his CV come over my desk for an entry-level I would definately have him in for a talk, and if his spoken skills were good as well I might well recommend that he be hired.
While it's true that just putting down the certification initials probably won't help that much, I think Billy can make his certifications into a competitive advantage by subtly playing them up in job interviews.
He might do this by asking whether the interviewer thinks certifications are valuable credentials? Usually there is a point where the interviewer asks whether there are any questions, and this would be a perfect point to ask this question. If the answer is yes, Billy has made his points. If not, then Billy can ask why not and perhaps start a (respectful) discussion with the interviewer about certifications.
Note that this should not be allowed to become an argument, but rather be pitched toward what Billy learned from the process of getting certified. He might wish to bring along a (short) java code listing to show a sample of his work. The strategy here is to take the attention away from his GPA (his weak point) and put it on something else (Billy's proven ability to cut code). Billy should not seek to challenge the interviewer in any way but rather to emphasize that he has much to learn from veterans like the interviewer. Just a beginner, but a relatively advanced beginner!
What think you?

[Billy Tsai]

actually I got rejected for several data entry and call centre jobs already and those are not really related to IT

[Billy Tsai]

even car washer/groomer and toilet cleaners need previous experience and references.

[Al Newman]

What about Macs?
MacDonalds that is. Of course that puts me in mind about the old MIT joke about job opportunities for physics grads.

A fellow gets his masters in physics from MIT and goes to apply for a job available in Cambridge (Masssachusetts, where MIT is located. He fills out his application, but is rejected. MacDonalds replies that he is underqualified. "all of our fry cooks hold the PhD"....

:roll:
[ July 08, 2003: Message edited by: Alfred Neumann ]

[Matt Cao]

Hi Billy,
Are you sure? Maybe the one you looked happens to contract it out with local unions.
Call center requires experience because I am darn not happy with those MSN tech supports. It sounds to me on the phone that they read from the knowledgeware without any basic principle of computer. Some companies even disregard for local accents and offshoring its call centers. Only creates more prejudice.
Data entry should not require experience but technically, you need to show how fast can you type per minute.

Hi Alfred,
Your joke reminds me of the two PhD Physicists I met during the boom time, now one works in the hospital morgue and the other fishs shrimp in Alaska.
Regards,
MCao
P.S. I think the topic now gearing toward job discussion.

[Billy Tsai]

Yes I am sure because I have applied for several of those similar positions already and got negative replies

[Matt Cao]

Hi Billy,
What technique did you used when applying for those jobs? Please tell me that you are not sit at home and mail out resume. What is your physique and appearance? What is your attitude when applying for those jobs? Know yourself limitations too.
For examples, I know that I cannot work as construction workers, cannot see the sign of dead body or blood, do not like illegal gain.
The cost of enter manual labor job is very low compare to IT job. But you have problem with it, I just don't know what to say.
Regards,
MCao

[HS Thomas]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Billy Tsai asked:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SCBCD,SCEA, also OCP DBA as I am interested in Database and programming would that help me to get accepted??
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
HS Thomas replied:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Unfortunately, probably not, certification in itself, won't help you.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
HS, I'm not as sure about this as you seem to be.

Sorry, Alfred. I took that question to be whether those credentials alone would get acceptance on a Masters/PHD program at a proper University!
I don't think they will. You never know unless one tries.
This was the post I was replying to.

I was aiming to do a master degree(postgraduate programme) but I was officially declined by the universities( University Of Sydney and uni of New South Wales) because of my low avg grades.
I would like to know if I have several certifications say like more than 6 inlcuding high level ones such as SCBCD,SCEA, also OCP DBA as I am interested in Database and programming would that help me to get accepted??
because it was my goal this year to get a master degree from a good university.
by the way we were never taught J2EE in the bachelor degree only like one or two powerpint slides on what it is.

I suppose I better correct it on the original.
Thanks Alfred.
regards
[ July 08, 2003: Message edited by: HS Thomas ]

[Ramon Gill]

Billy, you've had a lot of good advice. As I've already mentioned, I had a year of 'filling in' jobs after graduating. These included manual work and kitchen porter duties. I got these jobs through family and friends (Why don't you do the same?). When my break came, I can still remember how it felt to be sitting down at a desk all day instead of hard manual graft.
Ray Gill

[HS Thomas]

Billy or anyone else,

There is a *free* project going at
Java News,
or a *bid* project at
Jobs Offered
regards

[Al Newman]

HS Thomas wrote:

Sorry, Alfred. I took that question to be whether those credentials alone would get acceptance on a Masters/PHD program at a proper University!

Alright, that makes a lot more sense now.
Billy, I have to question your ambition to go the Masters or the PhD route. I had a long look at that myself a while ago, and it seemed to me that several things were clear. First, the Masters/PhD do not strengthen the credentials of a working IT professional much if at all. They certainly do not in the US or the UK, though the continental European countries (like Italy, France, or Germany) it seems to me that the PhD does help one's case. It can help in getting some of the very top jobs such as Director of Research at Microsoft, for example. I can't comment about New Zealand.
Most working IT professionals who go that route do the Masters only, and usually in night or weekend classes rather than full-time. Experience far outweighs the value of schooling in the field. I have found that a disciplined course of self-learning is a far more directed way of acquiring valuable skills than attending almost any university program.
There may be a few exceptions to this. Working for some of the better research projects at a top school (such as MIT, Carnegie-Mellon, or Berkeley in the US) can be valuable experience. NYU has an excellent though expensive continuing education program located in lower Manhattan. I have taken courses there and can testify to their quality and value. These course lead to certificates but not to a degree.
HS Thomas is right, I fear, about the importance that many universities place upon certification. This has more to say about the university's values today that it does about the value of the certifications.

[Kelvin Chan]

Hi all:
Life is sometimes difficult isn't... I am a/an
OCP
PMP
CISSP
SCJP
SCWCD
2 Master degree with 1 MBA with more than 11+ years experiences in IT (Bank, Government, Vendor (SUN):-))
I am out of the job market for one whole year and just got a new job four months ago .... with 75% salary cut... but so what ....life can be fun. I just finish my CISA and working on SCEA part 2 and SCJD.
Just keep on, there is up and down in everyone's life.

[Al Newman]

HS Thomas wrote:

Certainly take it VERY seriously and raising their own standards: Must be all the heat from certifications.
Midpoint Test Now Winnows CUNY Students

CUNY (City University of New York) is not the same institution as New York University (NYU). NYU is probably the most-prestigious university in New York after Columbia University, and their Continuing Education School has been great for at least 15 years. It used to be less expensive but is still great value compared to professional courses from almost any vendor you can think of. $1000 for a 40-hour course given by an expert rather than a trainer is great value any way you look at it!

[HS Thomas]

New York!
Great city!
One of my favourites. Harvard also have similar Continuing Education courses. In fact looking at the Biographies of some bartenders here, they seem to have attended a few.
I think you might find it catching in other Universities round the world.
They are also busy starting parallel Universities in places like China, Far East.City University - China.
Must look out for one near me! Thanks Alfred!
regards
[ July 09, 2003: Message edited by: HS Thomas ]

[Al Newman]

I am doomed and screwed then.............
I can imagine me sleeping on the street....

Buck up, kid. The problem right now is to get some income coming in. Apply around for a janitor's or a fast food job. Ask your parents if you can live at home until things get better.
They will. You've been unlucky and graduated into the worst recession you will probably see for another 20 years, just like I did 20 years ago. Recessions end, and you will do very well then. Anyone just out of college who has the application to try for and get these certifications will do VERY well in the coming expansion. Trust me on this, I've been there and done that. You are well ahead of where I was at the same point in my career!

[Billy Tsai]

well companies in some countries in asia take high level education as an important fact when recruiting ppl or promoting ppl within a company,
I know USA's economy is not in good shape so may be that is not true in US.
if you have a Master degree the start up salary is usually higher than other ppl just with bachelor degree also u can get the same respect as ppl with lots of experience(senior position)
and when the top management or CEO is deciding who to promote first the ppl with master degree and excellent performance within a company are usually taken into account first.
My dad's friend's daughter has a master degree in computer science from the same university I graduated in, she now works at IBM in taipei Taiwan and her salary is about $3000 USD a month
with less than a year's experience.
in NZ the big companies wants higher level education and experience too.
and I was asking with a BSc in informationsysttems specialisation plus all the certifications (about 8 certs)I mentioned b4 will that help in getting acceptted for Master degree? not just the certs alone
usually universities in NZ and Australia accepts ppl into master degree if they have like B+ avg in the BSc degree alone. but I dont have B+ so...........

[Amer Khan]

Dear Billy ,
Here in Melbourne there r many ppl holding masters degrees(IT)working in Seven-Eleven's or driving Taxis.

Trainer jobs ? answer --everybody does'nt have the info about it(There r always loopholes).
Computers r not everything ,broaden your horizon.
If u really want to continue your studies ,i would suggest MANAGEMENT even a diploma in management or marketing.This will go hand in hand with ur IT degree.IT degrees alone have very little scope.
Don't forget most of the development work is going to countries like China and India.
Bottom line is once u get a job (any job) i am sure u will start thinking straight.

BTW these days the level of education even in uni's has dropped considerably.I know a guy who has just completed his masters (IT)from Monash uni
he dose'nt even know the abc about computers(networking/programming )
[ July 09, 2003: Message edited by: Amer Khan ]

[Billy Tsai]

whats the most famous and prestigious university in Australia?

[Al Newman]

well companies in some countries in asia take high level education as an important fact when recruiting ppl or promoting ppl within a company,
I know USA's economy is not in good shape so may be that is not true in US.

I see you are determined to wallow in your depression. Have fun. I'm trying to tell you that there is a market for people who can code and that they don't give a rat's ass about your GPA, but you know better! My 20 years of experience don't mean squat I guess!

if you have a Master degree the start up salary is usually higher than other ppl just with bachelor degree also u can get the same respect as ppl with lots of experience(senior position)

Let me clue you in about something. A Masters degree usually takes 2 years of FT study. You could spend those 2 years getting work experience! A programmer with 2 years of work experience usually makes 25-50% more than an entry-level guy. So the 10-15% increment the MS holder gets as an entry-level means he makes LESS than he could have!
I'm beginning to understand why you are not employed yet, Billy. Two problems, really.
A) You piss senior people off maximally when you contradict them on topics they think they know! Do it in an interview and I can guarantee that you won't get a good job. Ever.
B) The previous post was one of the lousiest pieces of english-language writing I've had the displeasure to read in many a moon. Learn to write. Better still, learn to communicate!
Alfred (pissed off) Neumann out....
P.S. If this is true:

in NZ the big companies wants higher level education and experience too.

Then what you should do is absolutely obvious. Aim your job campaign toward small companies, non-profit orgs, researchers looking for a comuter geek. Aim to fill one of the cracks in the system. Many of these give lousy pay, but the experience is excellent. You will be the only computer geek there and you'll learn to put together entire systems. Which you will never do as a small piece in a large machine at IBM.
After a couple of years experience it won't matter. Your GPA won't matter, nothing but the fact that you can code (and test, etc) will matter. Anyone will hire you at that point.
[ July 09, 2003: Message edited by: Alfred Neumann ]

[Amer Khan]

Let me clue you in about something. A Masters degree usually takes 2 years of FT study. You could spend those 2 years getting work experience! A programmer with 2 years of work experience usually makes 25-50% more than an entry-level guy. So the 10-15% increment the MS holder gets as an entry-level means he makes LESS than he could have! --------
=============================

I agree with Alfred !

RMIT --Melbourne
uni of Sydney
Latrobe uni----Melbourne
[ July 09, 2003: Message edited by: Amer Khan ]

[Billy Tsai]

I guess that is true then
someone with 2 or 3 full years exp in J2EE and some qualification and certifications is much better off then a new graduate with a master degree.
not to mention university dont really teach J2EE fully in postgraduate programme anyway.
but the problem is I know little J2EE
but what about a project leader position?

[HS Thomas]

what about a project leader position

Hi Billy,
I've never known a project leader who hasn't worked up the ranks. I'm afraid Billy, certifications alone are not going to give a rapid step up the ladder.
A Phd might, but then you need to survive up there, too. That only experience of projects will give you.
A project leader needs to understand people, technology, tools and how the business works(processes).
Without experience that is very difficult to acquire.
Get the certifications, practise with a project (Oh and I forgot , the tools , which tools do you really love using ),really love what you do and someone will recognise that and give you a job.
BTW, Did you enjoy doing the SCJD project ? Go and tell someone about it.
If you don't really enjoy what you are doing , just find something that you really enjoy doing. You'll probably end up working in IT anyway. Enthusiasm is catching and attractive and a good hiring point.
regards
[ July 10, 2003: Message edited by: HS Thomas ]

[Billy Tsai]

I was saying that shouldn't project leaders have like at least a master degree or phD,
anyway I enjoyed doing the SCJD project, I spent entire month doing it and learning a lot of new stuff in the process and made me even stronger with J2SE therefor I really can't afford to fail it because of the time and money invested in it however I realised a few mistakes after I submitted it though.............................................................

[HS Thomas]

shouldn't project leaders have like at least a master degree or phD

Project leaders should be able to run a project.
They should be able to keep up with technology changes and be able to make decisions relating to changes.
He/She should be able to communicate to stakeholders as well as business staff and technical staff.

If a Master or PHD is in a relevant area, I am sure it helps .
Often , project leaders are bred especially at graduate entry levels. The growth rate from developer to Project Leader is about 10 years in most large companies.
This period can be narrowed down if the graduate is extremely sociable and knowledgable and can hold their own at technical and business meetings.
The more likeable you are ,or are seen to be helpful then more people tell you what they know about their work , the more you understand the business background.
In this case the person is pretty much tied to the Company.(And also a target of those who are slogging away at it ).
Project Leaders are , more often than not, nabbed from other companies. One who knows their value and keeps a close relationship with good recruiters ( through hiring the best underlings through them - the best underlings only look up to the best leaders) can keep a good track record and look forward to years of employment with many good companies.
Similarly , others can keep a good track record with lesser recruiters with lesser companies.
Once the economy improves people will be leaving their self-created hell-holes of employment for greener pastures and if you are prepared you are in a good position to be nabbed to fill those holes and probably do a better job.
Once in employment,but that's worthy of another post......
But life has a habit of throwing a googly now and then.
A googly is an Aussie cricketing term,Dictionary of cricket terms
but you should be familiar with that as you live down under! That should be another thing you could really enjoy.
Don't let the subtleties of cricket pass you by!
We need more nationalities /nations playing cricket.(Hope the subtlety of that comment is not lost on you.)
regards
[ July 10, 2003: Message edited by: HS Thomas ]

[Al Newman]

HS Thomas is correct. As a general rule, academic qualifications above the Bachelors degree aren't necessary or even particularly helpful in the US and the UK. They are helpful in continental europe, particularly for native citizens. But I have found it possible to work (and even thrive) in those places without the academic credentials because the ability to design and implement is even more highly valued.
I think Asian countries like Japan, HK, and Singapore tend more to the European POV on this, and Australia and New Zealand toward the US/UK POV.
That is not to say that many people don't hold the MSCS in the US, but the people who do so tend to be Indian and Chinese immigrants who often obtained their entry to the US by entering Masters degree programs and then staying on working under H1B visas and under the green card program. Most natives who obtain the MSCS do so at night school courses.
Experience is by far the most important factor in advancing in the field whether one considers implementation/design or project management. The problem with full-time Masters programs is that they take 2 years which could otherwise be occupied gaining experience.
One more thought, Billy. If you find your GPA a long-term impediment to your plans, there is a potential way around that problem. You can enroll in part-time courses at the undergrad level and work hard for a high grade in these courses. Several A's will have a distinct upward impact on your overall undergrad GPA, plus you will be able to point out that your recent record is a stellar one, which may also help.

[Matt Cao]

Hello,
I think we should celebrate for saving one lost soul. Finally, he opens up and begin to think the alternative to reach his goals without going through un-natural act of shorting his life.

Hey Billy,
You never find another internet club cooler than this one.
I have seen another approach to become project leader is through project implementation. You will have to work with cross departments and organizations depended on how the company setup. Any how, you must be proactive and flexible. The most important trace is having positive outlook in life that will creates charisma. Women are very familiar with it.
Right now you need income, anykind of income before the credit card interest charges you, it going to take awhile before you can get out of its dept. You may never know what kind of idea foster when you interface with people from all walks of life. From it, you can create your own project another avenue...
Regards,
MCao

[HS Thomas]

Hi ,
I am rather that no one has picked up on the cricketing opportunities that Billy has.

A left-hander's googly ( see definition of 'googly', below)....i.e., a pitch that looks as if it could break INTO a right-handed batter on the bounce, but breaks AWAY instead. So called because the first person to have delivered such a pitch was of Chinese extraction, in the West Indies !

AKA chinaman at the risk of sounding politically incorrect. I couldn't find any other details to back this snippet of info.Anyone have the relevant Wisden book?
Project Leader , Masters, PHD ? Pah - Pshaw!
Why not set higher goals and become Australia's / NZ first cricketer of Chinese extraction.
All kidding aside, I hope you find a job really soon! Those bills must be paid.
Good luck with the SCJD, SCEA and Oracle certifications. They are your cheapest options.
( You certainly don't have the money for other options.)
And rated highly, at least, by other holders of the certification.

[Billy Tsai]

I am still feeling depressed

[Al Newman]

Go ahead and feel depressed. It's part of the human condition, Billy. I'm fairly depressed right now because while I've had quite a lot of interviews lately and gotten very very close on several occasions, I have not hit yet. On a job offer that is.
Tomorrow I have an interview down in the City with a consultantcy which works with financial companies. I'm really hoping on this one because while the pay doesn't overwhelm it's a door into financial jobs in the City which normally pay extremely well.
I'm familiar with the company from my Java User Group and there are some very compatible people there. But if I don't get it, tomorrow is another day. One nice thing about all the near misses is that I'm clearly very close to a hit.
What you need to understand is that depression cannot make a difference in one's behavior. You have to go out and do it every day. It's not hopeless, merely difficult. Even now. What HS, Matt, and myself have been writing about are ways to tilt the playing field toward your strengths and away from your weaknesses.
Lots of candidates have high or decent GPA's, but I assure you that very few have certifications. You need to emphasize the strengths you have developed without forcing it too hard.....
[ July 10, 2003: Message edited by: Alfred Neumann ]

[Ben Sullivan]

Hi everyone
May I first just say a big thankyou for this discussion. It has been both comforting and inspiring to know that ranchers from around the globe are offering their support and advice in these difficult times and that we are not alone when experiencing difficulties trying to find new roles.
Secondly, Billy - LISTEN to what these guys are telling you. Their advice is bang on. Why do you insist on tertiary qualifications being the answer to your problems? I have a MSc in Computing from Imperial College (the most prestigious science and technology university in the UK) and I can honestly tell you that I have learnt 10 times more on the job and from self-study than I have from any of the MSc courses I took. I'm not denying it probably helped me get my place on a graduate training programme at a city investment bank, but I was applying when times were good in 2000 when graddies only had to compete with each other and not experienced techies with years of experience behind them. Now I'm looking for a new job and my MSc is the last thing employers are looking at on my CV - all that counts is hands-on experience.
Judging from your list of certs, you obviously have the apptitude - you need to put the theory you have learnt into practice. That's why I think Alfred's idea about free projects was very good advice. Or do as Kathy suggested and setup your own web store. Anything to use as evidence when an employer wants to see that you have been through the pains (and eventual joy!) of developing a piece of software.
ALFRED:.........
Your quote:

P.S. Kathy, BEA now has a program which allows developers to download and use their suite of products *free* as long as you sign up with them. Highly recommended.....

Do you have a web address for this? So you get the app server to play around on for practice for free?!
Could you confirm the title of the book you mentioned - I was unable to find it on Amazon (Guerilla Tactics in the Job Market, Tom Jackson). The closest match I got was this one :
Amazon Search Result
Alfred, as someone experiencing it first hand, what are your views on the IT job market in the UK at the moment - I am J2EE developer (Java 3 years, J2EE 1 year) currently in Oz pondering whether or not the grass is greener in the UK. Based on the offerings in Jobserve I am tempted to return.
Also, I found these articles useful for interviews and creating opportunities:
21 Tips for Interviews
Creating Opportunities:The Hidden Job Market
This topic needs to be moved to the relevant forum!!
Good luck all you job hunters out there.
Ben

[Ben Sullivan]

Sorry - Alfred, forgot to ask as well......
Can you recommend a resource for the Weblogic Certification - I was going to go for "J2EE Applications and BEA WebLogic Server", Girdley et al.
Cheers
Ben

[Chris Mathews]

Originally posted by Ben Sullivan:
Sorry - Alfred, forgot to ask as well......
Can you recommend a resource for the Weblogic Certification - I was going to go for "J2EE Applications and BEA WebLogic Server", Girdley et al.
Cheers
Ben

If you are interested in the WebLogic Certification then you might want to check out this post.
Also we are pretty friendly to cert seekers in the BEA/WebLogic. You can post any questions that you may have there.