NEW CERTIFICATION EXAM: Java Associate's Wanted

[Mark Spritzler]

Ko Ko, Nick, and Jay are on the correct path in their thinking.

That is the last you will hear from me in this thread.

(The crowd goes wild)

Mark

[Jeroen Wenting]

Whether you pass exams easily or nothing has nothing to do with experience.
I've always had trouble with exams, often I failed them despite knowing the subject matter inside and out.
For people who can cram and stay cool no exam is a problem that doesn't focus on practical application of concepts.
For people who can't cram and/or get overly nervous for exams (like me on both counts) they loose points needlessly, no matter of practical experience can help there.

The SCJP as it currently stands doesn't really test the thing it claims to test: the proficiency of the candidate to apply the language fundamentals in a realworld environment. Instead it focusses on cramming obscure little details which one is unlikely to run into on the job.
Maybe the Tiger exam will cure that in part.

Unless that situation indeed changes there's no room for an exam in front of SCJP except to cater to the masses of certification junkies and thus devaluating the worth of the existing exams for the possibility of shortterm income for Sun educational services.

[Mike Gershman]

Could you give some evidence to support that statement Mike?

Sure, Marcus:

1. Discussions with about two dozen headhunters - "certifications mean nothing".

2. Job qualifications on monster.com, dice.com, etc, show no interest in Java certifications. Search on SCJP, SCWCD, etc.

3. JavaRanch postings on this BB and especially on "Jobs Discussion" BB. Search on SCJP and SCJD.

Bottom line: paid commercial experience is the only readily marketable credential.

Do you have any contrary evidence?

[Marcus Green]

That's very nice for Dibbo, but in my experience tracking every public comment on the SCJP exam since 1997 and having received tens of thousands of personal emails on the subject, most people measure the time to study in several months at least.

[Dibbo Khan]

I am very interested in my field, I love programming and OO theory. I want to admit something to put everyone at ease, I passed SCJP after two weeks of studying with the help of Measure UP practice exams, the 1.2 version, big mistake, but I barely passed. If fact I got 52% the pass mark, I did luck out the assertions questions were a big shock.

I think the test should be hard, and I am very proud I passed, however I get sick and tired of people discouraging newcomers telling them not to even try without years of experience. Without my MCAD I would not be a C# consultant today. In fact I have no Java experience but many certs, I did fail the SCBCD before I passed, that test was hardest for me. But I do think you can crack any test without experience, you can't make a test hard enough so that a non guru can pass and someone without any experience at the same time.

Certification is really a great way to boost your career, it is not easy to gain experience without it, so certification is the only way out of this dilemna. The Sun tests are very hard, but no one should think they are invincible or part of a special club because they passed them.

[Tong Chen]

well...this new cert is useless for experienced java developer.
i don't know sun's purpose for creating this cert. but it IS useful for those people whose hobby is collecting different certs


other real useful certs would be:
Sun Certified Trainer for Java Technology

[Tong Chen]

and
Sun Certified Security Professional for Java Technology

[Mike Gershman]

i don't know sun's purpose for creating this cert. but it IS useful for those people whose hobby is collecting different certs

If collecting certs is your thing, why spend money?

Try this link:
http://www.funtrivia.com/

[Tong Chen]

why spend money?

This was exactly what I meant!

[Nicholas Cheung]

Originally posted by rathi ji:

Hi Nick ,
How can you be sure about SCJA ...

I just said I am in progress on SCJA, nothing is for sure, except I will go for this exam.

Nick

[Nicholas Cheung]

SCJEEP - Sun Cirtified Java Enterprise Edition Programmer ...

This certification is too board!!! Now, SUN has 3 exams for this area: SCWCD, SCBCD and SCDJWS.

So, it should be:
SCJEEPI - Sun Certified Java Enterprise Edition Developer Part I
SCJEEPII - Sun Certified Java Enterprise Edition Developer Part II
SCJEEPIII - Sun Certified Java Enterprise Edition Developer Part III

Nick

[Nicholas Cheung]

Hiring managers and recuiters are unanimous in saying that certifications will not help entry-level programmers get interviews, let alone jobs. Why does Sun think that this cert will be different?

It does not necessarily means you are a hiring manager. You could be one of the interviewers, or an experienced team member who are looking for new team members (as developers or programmers), and the expectation on the background knowledge of the members.

For example, workmate A and B are both capable for this project but you can only choose one of them, then, how you make the decision?

Nick

[Nicholas Cheung]

Marcus .. Dibbo passed it in 2 weeks without any experience What's up here ??

It is hard to perform comparsion with other people. For example, one can say SCEA is of no difficulty if he passed with 99%. However, for me, it might be quite difficult for me to reach 70%.

Different people has different backgrounds and backup, and thus, it might not be fair to make such comparsions.

Nick

[Nicholas Cheung]

it IS useful for those people whose hobby is collecting different certs

It is NOT useful if you are from the point of view of a cert. collector, because he needs to get one more cert. that originally does not exist.

Nick

[Nicholas Cheung]

By summing up Mike, Marcus, Dibbo and Jeroen's comments, I would say, only holding certifications is not that useful. It does not help much in job seeking. However, it does help you to build knowledge on certain areas.

A good example from Marcus is that, someone who worked for Java with several years might not be able to pass SCJP, which might because he just knew how to code but not the deep understanding of Java. Everyone can code and make the things work, however, the system might be very difficult to extend.

For me, I never regard certification as a quick way for job seeking and getting higher salaries, I would take it as a chance to learn new things, or learn old things with more in depth understanding.

In such sense, it will be much more reasonable, isnt it?

Nick

[S Santhosh]

hey is this survey still open when was the last response received.

Thanks,
Sreeds

[ankur rathi]

Originally posted by Nicholas Cheung:

I just said I am in progress on SCJA, nothing is for sure, except I will go for this exam.

Nick

Sorry , my question was not clear ...

I meant was , how can you be sure that you will get voucher ... As Evelyn told that they need 40-50 candidates ...

[Nicholas Cheung]

hey is this survey still open when was the last response received.

The survey is just started, however, the deadline of applying for taking part in the survey has been ended on 11 March 2005.

But still, you can contact Evelyn to confirm this.

Nick

[Ko Ko Naing]

Originally posted by Nicholas Cheung:

The survey is just started, however, the deadline of applying for taking part in the survey has been ended on 11 March 2005.

But still, you can contact Evelyn to confirm this.

Nick

Well, I guess a small amount of people for participation is needed... Umm, I guess the application for taking part in the survey is finished...
[ March 15, 2005: Message edited by: Ko Ko Naing ]

[Amirthalingam Prasanna]

I got the e-mail with the link for the survey but can't access the link. Any idea guys...

[Nicholas Cheung]

I meant was , how can you be sure that you will get voucher ... As Evelyn told that they need 40-50 candidates ...

Evelyn said for those who took and completed the survery, he will receive an voucher, and I have completed it on 14 Mar.

All survey participants will receive a free voucher to take the Beta
exam for this new certification

Still, even if I dont receive the free voucher, I will still take SCJA beta as my company will pay me the fee.

Nick
[ March 15, 2005: Message edited by: Nicholas Cheung ]

[Nicholas Cheung]

Well, I guess a small amount of people for participation is needed... Umm, I guess the application for taking part in the survey is finished...

So, I just ask him to make a try.

You finished the survey?

Nick

[Nicholas Cheung]

I got the e-mail with the link for the survey but can't access the link. Any idea guys...

I cannot access the link in office, but I can access it at home. I guess this might due to the restricted access by Proxy server.

Nick

[Ko Ko Naing]

Originally posted by Nicholas Cheung:
You finished the survey?

Yeah, I've done it...

[Amirthalingam Prasanna]

Did the survey as well...
Now the waiting starts. And on the argument on if we need this exam my intial thought was no, but after completing the survey i feel there is a need for this exam which tests an entry level programmer in java on the general concepts instead of going too deep into certain areas.

[Pradeep bhatt]

Originally posted by Nicholas Cheung:


Still, even if I dont receive the free voucher, I will still take SCJA beta as my company will pay me the fee.

Nick

[ March 15, 2005: Message edited by: Nicholas Cheung ]

Your company makes you write all the certifications that come in the market ?

[Ko Ko Naing]

Originally posted by Pradeep Bhat:


Your company makes you write all the certifications that come in the market ?

Umm, as far as I know, his company does this only for IBM, Sun and Oracle's upcoming certs... Not from all other companies...

[ankur rathi]

Nick Said :
Evelyn said for those who took and completed the survery, he will receive an voucher, and I have completed it on 14 Mar.

OK , so it is sure that who has got the survey link & filled the survey , will get voucher ...

[Marcus Green]

Responding to Mike Gershman

The knowledge obtained by Industry Certifications have never been the single door opening device to Jobs. Occasionally they have helped people get jobs because 3rd party vendors got significant discounts by having certified people on the Payroll (CNE,CNA, MCSE), but it was not the knowledge obtained in the exam that "got me the job". It is unfortunate that some poeple ever had the idea that being certified would on its own get them a job.

So what value do they have? They are a differentiator, In a situation with two candidates of similar background and ability the certified candidate has a slight edge. It shows motivation, application and that a Multi billion dollar corporation acknowledges a level of understanding.

"paid commercial experience is the only readily marketable credential"

I'd modify that to say it is the most important marketable credential. Employers want experience. So to get a job you need paid commercial experience. To get paid commmercial experience you need a job. By this logic nobody ever would have got any job at all. Everyone starts somewhere, and certification is another tick in the box on the resume.

Marcus
[ March 16, 2005: Message edited by: Marcus Green ]

[Krishna Srinivasan]

HI,

The main purpose of the SCJA exam is to give the basic knowledge for an entry level employee.Knowledge on Java only is not enough to get a job.Also, we need to understand the concepts of Oops and UML,etc., also we must have overall knowledge on Java.
Existing exams objectives covers only the specific technology.SCJA will give overall view on all the Java related technologies and some UML and OOPs concepts.

[Krishna Srinivasan]

HI Marcus,

In our company nearly 75% of the Java Developers have atleast

two sun certifications.All are not doing it with their own

interest .Company insisted employees to do the

certifications.Also they sponsor for the certifications.Not only

in our company, most of the companies as i know, they prefer

certified professional.

[Nicholas Cheung]

Your company makes you write all the certifications that come in the market?

It is better for me to get all Java certs, and those that needed by projects, like DB2, Oracle and IBM.

Now, we have a competition on who will be the 1st staff who get all java certifications.

Nick

[Nicholas Cheung]

Umm, as far as I know, his company does this only for IBM, Sun and Oracle's upcoming certs... Not from all other companies...

Ko Ko is right.

Nick

[Nicholas Cheung]

so it is sure that who has got the survey link & filled the survey , will get voucher ...

I suppose this will be the case.

Nick

[Nicholas Cheung]

To Marcus and Krishna,

That's true, getting certified means nothing, honestly. Just like getting a BSc(CS) or MSc(CS) degree solely did no help. You need to demonstrate you are capable for the tasks.

My company loves certifications much, and thus, we will try to get as updated as possible.

Nick

[Pradeep bhatt]

Originally posted by Nicholas Cheung:

It is better for me to get all Java certs, and those that needed by projects, like DB2, Oracle and IBM.

Now, we have a competition on who will be the 1st staff who get all java certifications.

Nick

If you take up every certification from Sun,IBM,Oracle do you have time to work >

When do you read for the certification ? After office ?

[Nicholas Cheung]

If you take up every certification from Sun,IBM,Oracle do you have time to work >

Yes, we only used 1 hour per week for discussing certification issues.

When do you read for the certification ? After office ?

We have a study group which we will study together at office after working hours.

Nick

[Marcus Green]

"Just like getting a BSc(CS) or MSc(CS) degree solely did no help"

Vast sums of money are spent on these types of qualifications, are they of no help at all, is there no purpose for them to exist or to be studied?

[Nicholas Cheung]

I dont know about other countries, but in Hong Kong, there are too many ways for you to archieve such qualifications. Some people even dont know the basic concepts of CS but they can get such a degree, say, via distance learning programme overseas.

Thus, during the interviews, we will ask tricky problems to see how candidates be able to solved them, instead of solely look at the qualifications.

Nick

[Peter Sin]

I have a question about the title of SCJA. Will it be confused with Sun Certified Java Architect(SCJA), previous version of SCEA ?