Real-world experience

[Mapraputa Is]

Mark, you should check out this book, you might find it interesting.

[Thomas Paul]

"project management for dummies"? Isn't that redundant?

[Mapraputa Is]

How did this thread swell so much?
Ok, I should admit I exaggerated my disgust for "real world" experience. Of course, it is important. Less than most of local population believe, though Hm... I am not ever sure they *really* believe...

Originally posted by Reid M. Pinchback:
Folks, I'm sorry you've been interviewed by idiots in past...

They weren't idiots! They only acted like idiots! What made them act like idiots is the main point of confusion for me...

[Mark Herschberg]

Originally posted by Mapraputa Is:
Mark, you should check out this book, you might find it interesting.

:-p
I was hoping it would be the illustrated Karma Sutra.... for dummies :-)
--Mark

[David Weitzman]

Just suppose that someone had no real world experience, no formal education, no one to recommend him, and hadn't yet entered college. Is there any way to be taken seriously?

[Reid M. Pinchback]

Under those circumstances I'd look for some not-for-profit organization that could use volunteers to do some technical work. You wouldn't get paid, but you'd get some experience. I'd also try to create some very whiz-bang personal web pages with very well-designed and effectively coded applets to show what you can do. Then shoot for intern-level positions.

[David Weitzman]

The problem is that "whiz-bang personal web pages" is precisely what I can't do. I have no aesthetic sense, nor do I even feel the urge to learn effective GUI programming. It just isn't something I have any talent for. I'm a geek, not an artiste.
I tried some work for one non-profit org (a program to convert calendar data to a web-ready form), but it seems the project has been forgotten about even though it is basically finished. Plus they were all supremely technically inept there (the only reason such a program was necessary in the first place was that the secretary refuses to learn to use new software).
Would a potential employer care if a person with no other experience had created/participated in an open source project?

[Matthew Phillips]

Participating in an open source project can't hurt. Anything that you can put on your resume to make you look good helps. Programming for an open source project will still show that you have programming skills, team skills, etc.

[Shura Balaganov]

Originally posted by Mark Herschberg:

I was hoping it would be the illustrated Karma Sutra.... for dummies :-)

Here you go, Mark, I think you'll find this book interesting...
[edit: added comments below]
Speaking of new books, what's the word at JavaRanch on Jakob Nielsen and his website usability principles? It might be a good start for someone who wants to do web development but lacks serious "real world" experience. I've seen companies ask for candidates to know those, as well as, for instance, what "deconstruct a website" means.
Shura
(Map corrected spelling )
[ May 29, 2002: Message edited by: Mapraputa Is ]

[Nanditha Buddhavarapu]

Hey guys, This is my first time on this forum and I think its a gud way to not only help sumone out but also discuss the latest changes in the Software world.

[Shura Balaganov]

How about this "test"?
Ask yourself "Do you do the same thing you've been doing last year?" Maybe you've learned new techniques, met great people, gained knowledge over the course of a year (or 2)? If your answer is "no", do you think you want to learn new things? If you do, you might be stuck at wrong place, and your "real-world experience" is not really worth that much.
Since being unemplyed (oh, my 2 previous companies want to talk to me to maybe do some work for them again, so I guess I was a-OK worker ), I've came to realization of few things that I normally wouldn't have time to think about - because of busy schedule and deadlines. So, guys and gals out there who lost their jobs, maybe now is a good time to rethink your priorities? Oh maybe take that long thought of skiing trip to Alpes?

Mapraruta, since you have a link to Jargon file, which tends to mention MIT a lot, is it safe to assume a relation there?... Can this forum possibly be dominated by MIT folks? And where is our strong Eastern-European block? Went down along with Berlin wall?
Shura
[ May 31, 2002: Message edited by: Shura Balaganov ]

[Alex Ayzin]

Originally posted by Shura Balaganov:
[qb] And where is our strong Eastern-European block? Went down along with Berlin wall?
Shura

Eastern-Europian block is currently down due to different malfunctions on the job market(and damn pay cuts ).
--Alex Ayzin

[ May 31, 2002: Message edited by: Alex Ayzin ]

[Shura Balaganov]

Originally posted by Alex Ayzin:

Eastern-Europian block is currently down due to different malfunctions on the job market (and damn pay cuts ).

Well, I was kinda hoping that a mix of socialist and technological backgrounds produce determined and unselfish mixture... Apparently, a comrade dipped into capitalism emerges mostly as money-centered individual (or so I've been told ).
Some of my friends prefer Zen Buddhism to Java
Shura

[Alex Ayzin]

Originally posted by Shura Balaganov:

Well, I was kinda hoping that a mix of socialist and technological backgrounds produce determined and unselfish mixture... Apparently, a comrade dipped into capitalism emerges mostly as money-centered individual (or so I've been told ).

I'm sure that we're all different species; some of us emerge as money-centered individuals, some of us become liberal pacifists with no taste for money or good life, just comfort in their souls and balanced surroundings... I for one care about what's going on aroud me, but call me selfish and politically incorrect, but currently I care about my own financial stability much more than ozon layer or some pro-gay/lesbian rally in Manhattan.

Some of my friends prefer Zen Buddhism to Java
Shura

Some of my friens prefer blondes/brunetes/redheads with 90-60-90 params, but since they're married and remember about their wedding vows they resist the temptations and rejections; maybe I'll recommend Zen Buddhism as a substitute.
Best Regards,
--Alex Ayzin

[Mapraputa Is]

Originally posted by Shura Balaganov:
Since being unemployed, <...> I've came to realization of few things that I normally wouldn't have time to think about - because of busy schedule and deadlines.

Exactly! That's why I made the first post in this thread! It's amazing how unemployment can expand your horizons! I am not kidding!
Mapraruta, since you have a link to Jargon file, which tends to mention MIT a lot, is it safe to assume a relation there?...
Reusing a joke that could be found (until recently) on this site, "Maparaputa is not affiliated with MIT in any way. Except she likes them a lot"
But this is interesting question. I noticed myself that most stuff that I like... um, not simply "like", but really like, comes from there. Hofstadter's "GEB" book, Jargon file, many of esoteric programming languages, my current pet book are originated from aforementioned educational institution. And when I am saying "really like", it means that the thing can bring you into deeper existential ecstasy than a bottle of vodka.
Can this forum possibly be dominated by MIT folks?
But of course! :roll: It is openly, blatantly, domina... I mean moderated by MIT... um... folk.
And where is our strong Eastern-European block? Went down along with Berlin wall?
Went down? You mean "go down, Moses"? Well, some did, some went even further (Australia ) but mostly it's West migration. To demoralize capitalism from inside.

[Mark Herschberg]

Originally posted by Mapraputa Is:
But this is interesting question. I noticed myself that most stuff that I like... um, not simply "like", but really like, comes from there. Hofstadter's "GEB" book, Jargon file, many of esoteric programming languages, my current pet book are originated from aforementioned educational institution.

I am noticably absent from that list! :-(
--Mark

[Mapraputa Is]

Oh... Mark... I was too shy to... well...

[John Fontana]

Originally posted by Alex Ayzin:

Some of my friens prefer blondes/brunetes/redheads with 90-60-90 params

This one of those cases where the metric system can really catch an American off guard - a bit startling, if you catch my drift. Although I know people who would prefer those measurements be it metric or inches...

[Rosen Dimitrov]

... And when I am saying "really like", it means that the thing can bring you into deeper existential ecstasy than a bottle of vodka.
MaprapuTa ucaeBa
What's happened to your priorities my dear? I see you've been trying to demoralize capitalism from within for too long now....
Best Regards,
rosen

[Jamie Robertson]

And when I am saying "really like", it means that the thing can bring you into deeper existential ecstasy than a bottle of vodka.

Map, You are the wisest of the wise. That quote is gold!
Jamie

[Shura Balaganov]

Originally posted by Mapraputa Is:

But this is interesting question. I noticed myself that most stuff that I like... um, not simply "like", but really like, comes from there {MIT}. Hofstadter's "GEB" book, Jargon file, many of esoteric programming languages, my current pet book are originated from aforementioned educational institution. And when I am saying "really like", it means that the thing can bring you into deeper existential ecstasy than a bottle of vodka.

Mapraruta, you are my hero. Just bought Hofstadter's "GEB" book, thanks. Look forward to expanding my horizons even more
A bottle of vodka would more likely bring non-existential ecstasy. When I was younger I prefered rock'n'roll (playing), but now it makes my brains want to jump out.
Went down? You mean "go down, Moses"? Well, some did, some went even further (Australia) but mostly it's West migration. To demoralize capitalism from inside.
Never been a big fan of Faulkner (maybe because I've never read him? ). Capitalizm, shmaputalizm.... Gone, long gone, this country is closer to communism than Fidel could ever dream about.
Shura

[Mapraputa Is]

Originally posted by Shura Balaganov:
Just bought Hofstadter's "GEB" book, thanks.

Gee, now both Weinberg and Hofstadter owe me my little percent. Hm, maybe it's easier to make money by quoting their books on JavaRanch than by any software development...
Never been a big fan of Faulkner (maybe because I've never read him? ).
Faulkner? Must be a Google artifact. I meant Louis Armstrong's song - never read Faulkner either
Shura, how come you haven't find a way to our "Meaningless Drivel" forum yet? This is where all our deep thinkers hang out. Except for Mark Oh well, if you do not come to MD, MD comes to you...
[ June 05, 2002: Message edited by: Mapraputa Is ]

[Shura Balaganov]

Originally posted by Mapraputa Is:

Shura, how come you haven't find a way to our "Meaningless Drivel" forum yet? This is where all our deep thinkers hang out. Except for Mark Oh well, if you do not come to MD, MD comes to you...

So, you consider my posts here a meaningless drivel? Shame on you!
Although I might come across as arrogant, nasty and edgy in some posts, I am really small, white and fuzzy And I dislike huge crowds and sworms of unknown people, and prefer to stay in my small and dark clos... I mean, thread.
OK, ok, I am coming out
Shura

[Mapraputa Is]

Originally posted by Shura Balaganov:
So, you consider my posts here a meaningless drivel? Shame on you!

It was a compliment! :roll: "Meaningless drivel" is our best forum! Well, after "Job discussion", of course.
Although I might come across as arrogant, nasty and edgy in some posts
This can be said about any geek!
No, I just thought that your ideas are often too deep and broad to fit any specific forum. I have the same problem, ofthen do not know where to post my ideas, so they mostly end up in "Meaningless Drivel"

[Thomas Paul]

Originally posted by Mapraputa Is:

Gee, now ... Hofstadter owe me my little percent. Hm, maybe it's easier to make money by quoting their books on JavaRanch than by any software development...

Maybe we can write a review of GEB for the Bunkhouse. But then Paul will yell at us for giving out another 10 horseshoe review.

[Mapraputa Is]

Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
Maybe we can write a review of GEB for the Bunkhouse.

I was also thinking about it! We need this review! Bunkhouse without GEB book is like JavaRanch without Meaningless Drivel, like Meaningless Drivel without Thomas Paul, it simply doesn't make sense!
But then Paul will yell at us for giving out another 10 horseshoe review.
That's why I suggested a consensus of at least two. It would be hard for Paul to yell at us two, or three, or more.

[Mark Herschberg]

Map, I picked up "Understanding the Professional Programmer" the other day and just started reading it. Thanks for the reference :-)
--Mark

[Jennifer Bhamoo]

Originally posted by Shura Balaganov:

Speaking of which... There is this subject of eXtreme Programming... Well, I actually had a chance to use it before I've read about it in books. What we've done was work in pairs on one of the projects (it just came to us naturally ), and I'll tell you it worked like a charm. Productivity and especially Quality was excellent.
Shura
[ May 24, 2002: Message edited by: Shura Balaganov ]

Adding to this conversation a bit late, but...
This is interesting that you just mentioned XP and earlier someone mentioned Deming, because just last week I attended a Deming study group, and the guest speaker discussed Software Quality and half of his discussion went into XP practices!
Speaking of dumb hiring practices, when I first started my current job, the way everyone was talking during my interview, I thought they were these Java programmers (which I thought was great since this was my first job) Come to find out, they were all talk and they felt like Java programmers because they were adding a FrontPage hover button applet to their web page! :roll: