A warning to Java Certification seekers

[Mark Herschberg]

Originally posted by Jonathan Hendry:
Mark Herschberg writes: "One can either rail at fate or adjust to the world as it is. I chose to do the latter."

I never said that. I was quoting Alfred Neumann.

Originally posted by Jonathan Hendry:

The problem is that the business world might not allow you to adjust. Take offshore outsourcing. They might want to pay drastically lower salaries, but they probably won't be interested if you've "adjusted to the world" by lowering your salary expectations and your standard of living. If you do that, you're automatically suspect. Recruiters seem to be hiring with the same assumptions as if the world has not changed at all.

They may also want to adjust the laws of physics, but it ain't gonna happen. You can ignore good business practices for only so long. I believe that good business will win out in the end and that I am a strong enough candidate that I can still find good companies even in the "dark times" before the majpority of the companies "see the light."

Originally posted by Jonathan Hendry:

Regarding certifications, Mark, have you taken any of the project oriented
certification exams?

No. I don't know much about them. I want to reiterate that I don't inherently dismiss all exams. I think some of the Oracle exams, for example, may have some value. I just don't value the current Java exams.

Originally posted by Jonathan Hendry:

Regarding certifications, Mark, have you taken any of the project oriented
certification exams?

Originally posted by Jonathan Hendry:
[QB]
Consider the alternatives for evaluating a candidate. Performance reviews and corporate advancement can involve politics, distorting inter-personal dynamics, favoritism, nepotism and other problems, which you're not likely to find out about. So a candidate's job history might be pumped up a bit. References from former employers can be pretty vapid and noncommittal, in order to avoid legal trouble.

The first part of that is like saying, "consider a company that is dysfunctional...." Of course it won't work well. That's not a fair example. If your company is good, you can rely on performance reviews of the other managers. If your comapny is not good, don't work there (or do so at your own risk). Since performance reviews are internal, it's never used by candidates when switching companies.
Nepotism is great; the non-prejorative word is "networking." It's good because it builds a chain of trust--something you can't do any other way.
References may be useful, or they may be blunted for legal reasons. The latter case is pretty clear, "My comapnies policy is not to comment on any current or prior employees." You can't misinterpret that.
I have been able to find good candidates through just resumes, references, and interviews. I'm not perfect, but I've also never been trained. I'm sure good HR rep (which granted may be few and far between in IT) are even better. one thing I'm sure of is that it can be done.
--Mark

[HS Thomas]

posted by me :
As far as the SCWCD and SCEA they are updating it soon to include Struts and JavaServerFaces and the SCEA to include things like Web Services, I believe.

I wasn't right about SCWCD being updated soon to include JavaServerFaces and Struts.
But I'm right about the next version of SCEA including Web Service. About 90% sure about this.
Sun has the only really practical certifications I know. SCJD and SCEA.
I did one Oracle exam a few years ago and felt I had to memorise to pass. The questions were so trivial. That might have changed by now.
regards
[ August 17, 2003: Message edited by: HS Thomas ]

[Billy Tsai]

Oracle has released a new high level certification called Oracle Certified Master which has the prerequsits of OCP DBA and it involves sitting an entire day practical lab exam similar to CCIE, they are all pretty rare high level certification, would anyone consider SCEA+SCJD be rare and high level+value certs as well?

[Bob E. Lee]

thx everyone for sharing...
it's kinda sad to read the above message, but life goes on.
I too got SCJP my background is 2 yrs in Java w/ Oracle as the back-end. After long job search I end up doing VB/VBA w/ MS Access as the back-end. it pays the bills.
I remember one "wise" man said... "it's easier to found a job when you got a job". Go figure! From my M$ job I got "refer" to a part-time supporting a small company's applications and hardwares.
oh btw, I hate it when people said the "job market is getting better"! Because the person who said that is usually the person who HAS a job. I feel your pain -- don't give up!
peace out~

[Jerry L Kreps]

Originally posted by Kevin Thompson:
Stephen,
I guess I am jaded and it shows.
The very first thing you have to give up is your honesty.
How exactly do you think people get "commercial experience"? I know people who say they have 5 years of "commercial experience" who know squat. THey obtained their "commercial experience" by making it up out of thin air.
Just yesterday I seen a resume on the internet - the guy called himself "an information architect and web interface engineer" - but all he knows is Flash. Of course, this is pathetic - but this is how things work now.
Kevin

It sure does show. NEVER give up your honesty. Your lies will come back home to roost.
We just laid off an individual who had lied on her resume. Lying about your skill set is absurd. When your work shows none of the skill your resume claims and it is obvious you can't perform, the first question that come to an employer's mind is "If this individual has lied about what they can do, what else have they lied about?"

[Al Newman]

Originally posted by Jerry L Kreps:

It sure does show. NEVER give up your honesty. Your lies will come back home to roost.
We just laid off an individual who had lied on her resume. Lying about your skill set is absurd. When your work shows none of the skill your resume claims and it is obvious you can't perform, the first question that come to an employer's mind is "If this individual has lied about what they can do, what else have they lied about?"

True. But perhaps the more interesting question is how to deal with the reverse situation? How does one account for the skills one picks up but has not used 'in anger' on a commercial project?
Many employers completely discount evidence of things like books read, 'toy' projects, and other forms of gathering experience such as JUG attendance. And yet these things can be valuable preparation for crossing the technology bridge and transitioning to new technology. People who behave this way frequently do not have to be trained - they will train themselves and use their networks to gather valuable advice.
This can more valuable than 'narrow-exposure' commercial experience but is not commonly accepted as such.
I have not come up with a satisfactory way to show this kind of work. Any ideas?

[Matt Cao]

Hi,
It has everything to do with perception value. Instead study from a book, you could enroll a course with local college. Instead of staying home collect dust, you could help out the local city hall by bringing it IT up to par. The point is someone varify your existence at that moment. Whatever you put down on your resume, you are liable for it. If you claim to know XYZ, once hired could you prove it.
Everyone preaching honesty, but they alway included creativity as an underclause. If you take the word honest as it is, then you are naive.
Regards,
MCao

[HS Thomas]

Matt,
You mean to try and build your ambitions into your CV without telling outright lies ? You have to work out this path to ambition yourself. No one can force you into a mould.
And try different avenues. Leadership skills (Scout Master, Community Leadership as Natalie Kopple is doing ) are ways into new roles.
Letting people make mistakes while keeping a watchful eye is a skill. So that they can learn to make decisions. Another skill. Thinking out loud on your CV about what you'd like to have done but achieved only half is not a lie. You have created an opportunity to learn and do better next time.
regards
[ August 27, 2003: Message edited by: HS Thomas ]

[Mark Herschberg]

Originally posted by Alfred Neumann:

How does one account for the skills one picks up but has not used 'in anger' on a commercial project?

Ouch!

Originally posted by Alfred Neumann:

Many employers completely discount evidence of things like books read, 'toy' projects, and other forms of gathering experience such as JUG attendance. And yet these things can be valuable preparation for crossing the technology bridge and transitioning to new technology. People who behave this way frequently do not have to be trained - they will train themselves and use their networks to gather valuable advice.

It's a matter of making a consistant picture. For example, I had no formal financial background. it comes mostly from books. Now I have a job at HBS where I worked on a finance application. I can now apply to any finance job. For example, earlier today I was talking to Joseph Sabrin about the Risk Management Technology J2EE Position he posted. I've never done risk management. Why should they take me over someone who has? What I can demonstrate is a) general intelligence and the baility to learn and b) the ability to pick up some financial knowledge (at my current job). Putting the two together you can extrapolate that I can learn new concepts in finance.
On your resume or in your cover letter, give concrete examples of how you were able to apply off-the-job acquired knowledge to on-the-job problems. Be specific. You need to make yourself stand out. Reading a book is great, and it does show a willingness to learn; but anyone can do that. I can hire the next guy and invest a week in having him read the same book. You need to show that you've done more than that. Show me that this knowledge does make you special in a way that the next guy in my door won't be.
--Mark

[Matt Cao]

Dear All,
Sorry for the unfinished post earlier have to delete it.
Hi HS,
I posted my view because Alfred seems to fault Jerry K alone.
What I am trying to say is a little white lies won't hurt anyone if it done with tact. I have seen many resumes that have gaps or exaggregate the individuals technology skills. I try to give some hints how to cover the gaps and exaggregate technology skills as if you are an average John or Jane Doe. If someone could verify your existence in those downtime, you are very much home free. People who get caught usually are those have more than just technical skill problem. Those individuals have damaged the creditability between the project lead and the management causing the bottle neck.
If you have advanced degrees, then you could throw in some books in those employment gaps. Be ready to elaborate what you read. If possible, prove what you learn. If the interviewer does not know, you teach. If the interviewer know, be ready to sell.
Why there is the different between undergrad employment gaps and grad employment gaps activities. For example, if want to purchase a text book, are you skimmed the book first? What areas do you look at? Do you look for subject title, content, and author. Do you want a good review author or someone with advanced degrees. Do you want to buy the author knowledge and hopefully wisdom from it.
Interviewer is the same thing. If you are a grad, he/she wants to buy your book of knowlege. Be able to transfer what you read and deliver it in a manner that not too preachy and win a job. If you are an undergrad, why did he/she wants to buy your book of knowledge. What wisdom could you possibly have? Therefore, you need to do what the majority of us went through. Some chose certs, pet projects, advanced education, or different career. If that Natalie do in her downtime, then kudos for her.
Are we on the same wavelength? Myself, I am content. I already map out my strategies to become COO's consultant. I visit this forum often because this is a dark time in western countries labor market specially white collar. I offer my views to those who's overlooked. I also learn a thing a two about your ranchers.
Regards,
MCao

[Al Newman]

Originally posted by Matt Cao:
Hi,
It has everything to do with perception value. Instead study from a book, you could enroll a course with local college. Instead of staying home collect dust, you could help out the local city hall by bringing it IT up to par. The point is someone varify your existence at that moment. Whatever you put down on your resume, you are liable for it. If you claim to know XYZ, once hired could you prove it.
Everyone preaching honesty, but they alway included creativity as an underclause. If you take the word honest as it is, then you are naive.
Regards,
MCao

Obviously, Matt. One problem is that the adult ed (nights and weekends) scene in London absolutely blows. In IT it's completely pitiful. The one subject upon which they could teach me anything I might find useful is Oracle and even there only an entry course would be available. To be honest there seems to be a decent Linux program a LONG way out in the opposite direction, but that is it. I should be the instructor in the Java area!
This is not just arrogance speaking. I am interested in doing a VB.NET course. They are teaching VB6, no thanks!
The way to develop current skills (unavailable on the job for whatever reason) in the UK is to buy good books and work through the projects on your computer, with variations of course. Almost as good as commercial experience, IMO. Not quite.
Matt is quite correct, 'white lies' are the way to go. Which disturbs me on the ethical level. Before I add a skill to the skills list on my CV I carefully consider this: "Can I back it up?". Usually this involves doing it on my PC at least once, sometimes with variations just to deepen my knowledge base.
If the answer is yes the skill goes in. And the likes of Jerry Kreps will never fire me, because I CAN back it up.....
A skill is a skill is a skill, whether acquired on the job or at home burning the midnight oil.
[ August 28, 2003: Message edited by: Alfred Neumann ]