MH
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Originally posted by Sankar Subbiah:
Ashwini,
I request you to reconsider the emailing part in your mail. It might create problems to the poor fellows who posted the message in the newsgroup. Please consider that. Wipro management can easily find out the persons posted the message. Don't take this article too seriously. You are giving toomuch credit to an article, which it doesn't deserve.![]()
Originally posted by Joe Pluta:
Did you even bother to read the article, Ashwini? The whole article was ABOUT changing government policy. Some 2500+ words was directed at changing government policy. About 350 mentioned a couple of emails. You focus on the 350 and IGNORE the other 2500? And you call ME biased? Look in the mirror, kiddo!![]()
Originally posted by Joe Pluta:
I love this!
Teri: There are experienced people who have the responsibility to deliver the project. Under them, there are some less experienced people and tons (ok, not 100 but about 3 to 10, depending on project) of freshers.
So, according to this, some 60% or more of the developers on any given project are freshers. This is good information for CEO's to know, and I doubt that the consulting companies advertise this fact.
IF this fresher is working on something non-critical AND somebody is checking his code AND he is not being billed for AND he is not on a visa, then I have no problem with the approach.
Joe
Originally posted by Joe Pluta:
IF this fresher is working on something non-critical AND somebody is checking his code AND he is not being billed for AND he is not on a visa, then I have no problem with the approach.
Commentary From the Sidelines of history
I posted a link to this article on a Java site heavily trafficked by a global development community. The response from some folks was, as you might guess, somewhat less than cordial.
Commentary From the Sidelines of history
Originally posted by Joe Pluta:
Folks! Please!
The overriding complaint seems to be that I overgeneralized based on a couple of emails and that this really wasn't fair to the overall population of offshore programmers (particularly the Indians, since my examples were Indian companies).
If you think this was such an egregious misstatement, then I invite you to make your opinions known. I've already posted a link for the discussion group on that particular article. Or, simply click here. I encourage opposing views.
If it's indeed the case that I just don't understand how the offshore programming industry works, then this is an opportunity for you to clear that up. All I did was report what I saw, and if my reporting cast an unfair light on the situation, then by all means please set the story straight.
Thanks!
Joe
Originally posted by Joe Pluta:
My inferences are not wrong - by your own admission there are inexperienced people working on projects at consulting firms. That's really all I said.
The difference is that you and others here are saying that these "Shadow Resources" are simply learning the ropes and not being billed, and these people simply "format code" or "develop unit test plans". But that's not what we saw in the mailing list posts, so feel free to clear that up.
Also, you insist that it's none of the clients' business who works on the code. I'd be interested to see what happens if you go to a hiring manager and tell him it's none of his business who works on his mission critical software.
I stand by my statements.
Joe
Commentary From the Sidelines of history
Originally posted by Dan Stephens:
Joe, I applaud your fairness in pointing other people here to see other people's views, but it's interesting that the subject here is nothing like what I thought it'd be from the context of where it was posted and what it said at mcpressonline (where I just came from).
Commentary From the Sidelines of history
Originally posted by Joe Pluta:
My inferences are not wrong - by your own admission there are inexperienced people working on projects at consulting firms. That's really all I said.
Originally posted by Joe Pluta:
The difference is that you and others here are saying that these "Shadow Resources" are simply learning the ropes and not being billed, and these people simply "format code" or "develop unit test plans". But that's not what we saw in the mailing list posts, so feel free to clear that up.
Originally posted by Joe Pluta:
Also, you insist that it's none of the clients' business who works on the code. I'd be interested to see what happens if you go to a hiring manager and tell him it's none of his business who works on his mission critical software.
Originally posted by Joe Pluta:
I stand by my statements.
Joe
Originally posted by Joe Pluta:
Last post on the topic.
I do not think it's right to have newbies with no experience working on any non-trivial part of my system. The emails show they are. That's all I said.
Joe
Originally posted by Joe Pluta:
Okay, one last comment, since you're asking nicely (and indeed, you've been pretty cordial, despite the obvious heat in the subject).
Yes, that's what I meant. By extension I also meant that I don't think American companies realize that they are getting lots of newbies on their projects. I think this discussion will go a long way to raising awareness on that topic. Many consulting companies are displacing EXPERT American workers, simply because they are cheaper, and it's POSSIBLE (possible, mind you!) that they are not fully disclosing this particular fact. It would be much easier to make a counter proposal to management if it was known ahead of time that in fact they will are not getting a team of seasoned veterans, but instead are getting trainees as well. I also think it will help companies to ask ahead of time what percentage of trainees they are getting.
I think we've done a good job here of really analyzing the consulting practice and how it works. Once again, I may be guilty of overgeneralizing based on those two emails, but on the other hand, I think it spawned this conversation which really raised the level of understanding, certainly on my side, of the entire process.
I don't mean to make disparage anyone's individual expertise. I said at the very beginning of this thread that I've worked with great programmers of all backgrounds. I just wanted to get a clear understanding of the types of talent that are displacing American workers, and this thread has gone a long way towards doing that.
Thank you for taking the time to express your views.
Joe
Originally posted by Paul McKenna:
The reason I dont feel like registering at mcpressonline is because I know that the majority of people who roam around such sites wouldnt even give a dimes worth of their sense to hear my side of the argument. I fought several such people in vain on the threads of ZDNet.com
After a while, I decided never again to involve myself in any such debate. This thread has been the first one in a long time for me.
Originally posted by Teri To:
Where will you get experienced people from if nobody is letting a fresher have experience???
Originally posted by Joe Pluta:
You know, I passed this up, Paul, but this may be the silliest post I've ever heard. Here you are making a big stink about what I wrote, and yet I'm willing to take a stand against whatever opposition there may be.
You on the other hand are not willing to debate with real people - people who have worked in the industry for 20 or 25 years, and who are losing their jobs because of outsourcing and visas. Instead, you'd rather sit here in the relatively comfortable confines of what is a pretty singleminded group. (At least the ones who are posting.)
Me, I'm willing to put my opinions up against yours and against my own particular niche. You on the other hand won't talk outside your comfort zone. That says an awful lot to me about whose arguments really stand up to scrutiny in the real world.
Commentary From the Sidelines of history
Originally posted by Joe Pluta:
Okay, one last comment, since you're asking nicely (and indeed, you've been pretty cordial, despite the obvious heat in the subject).
.....
- Varun
Originally posted by Joe Pluta:
But you owe an apology to all the good readers of MCPressOnline who you unfairly tarred with your prejudiced brush.
Joe
Originally posted by Joe Pluta:
Last post on the topic.
I do not think it's right to have newbies with no experience working on any non-trivial part of my system. The emails show they are. That's all I said.
Joe
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Originally posted by Joe Pluta:
Paul, this whole thread is about nothing BUT my views on newbies and the mailing lists. Of course there's no discussion of the other 90% of my article, because you can't argue about it. The only possible thing to argue is the status of newbies, and all of you are jumping in on the bandwagon, you included, Paul. So when I say you're making a stink, you are. You're standing right alongside all the other apologists who say throwing newbies on commercial projects is okay.
As to accusations, you're the one who started flinging 'em, buddy:
The reason I dont feel like registering at mcpressonline is because I know that the majority of people who roam around such sites wouldnt even give a dimes worth of their sense to hear my side of the argument. I fought several such people in vain on the threads of ZDNet.com.
Majority of people? Such sites? Wouldn't hear your side? How would you know? The people who frequent MCPressOnline are good, hardworking people, from various parts of the globe. How dare you generalize like this, sir! That's what REALLY pissed me off. This whole stupid thread is because you people say I generalized too much, and then you go and throw that blatant generalization out.
You don't want to debate with me anymore? Fine. But you owe an apology to all the good readers of MCPressOnline who you unfairly tarred with your prejudiced brush.
You do, however, make one good point:
I'm sure there are several Americans on this very forum, who have been laid off due to outsourcing.. where are they? Why are they keeping silent? Am I preventing them from posting?
I can't answer that. I know that there are plenty of people in my industry that are being laid off. It may be that there aren't that many Java programmers being laid off yet, or maybe they don't want to rock the boat because they realize they may have to work for an Indian firm in order to get a job. I don't know, Paul, and it really disappoints me. All it takes for evil to succeed is for good people to say nothing.
Joe
Commentary From the Sidelines of history
I'm sure there are several Americans on this very forum, who have been laid off due to outsourcing.. where are they? Why are they keeping silent? Am I preventing them from posting?
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