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Resumes as fiction

 
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What if he invests his time in studying and says that he has one yr experience?
If he says he has one year business experience, he is fired. If he says he has one year of self-taught experience he is not. There is no excuse for lying to get a job - he may be stealing the position from someone who has 8 months of experience and is honest. As soon as you start allowing lying, you are in fact encouraging it. Liars should be fired.
And your cynical view that people lie more the hire they get in the chain is just that: cynical. I own my own company, and I do not lie - I do not lie to clients, I do not lie to prospects, I do not lie to people I hire. You do not have to lie; it's a choice. Using other people's lies to justify your own is called "situational ethics" and begins the descent down a slippery slope.
And no, I do not trust used car salesmen.
Joe
 
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Originally posted by Joe Pluta:

It's REAL simple until you try cluttering it up with "I think they meant this."
Joe


Just to clarify what you are saying :
When the job posting says 1 year experience of Java needed, it means simply and literally that you have one year experience no matter whether it is self education, class learned, from personal projects, or any combination of the preceding.
This means I've really been short changing myself in a number of areas. I'm going to be replying to a lot more job posting now and take out any references to "educational" or "personal experience" on my resume.
 
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Hi,
People have rejected from position usually have more than just technical skills. The reason is technical skill can be acquire on the job.
When someone mentions HR people undercut technical manager by coming up a misrepresentative job requirment. This is a very loud signal that company technical manager is an incompetent, no leadership and team work skills. As anyone who have experience in running organization will vouch that HR Manager usually get hired by Business Admin./General Manager and Engineering/Operation Manager. The list could go higher depended on the company size. Unless you have any intension to steal that hiring manager job, I think you should stay away from that kind of organization.
When someone mentions all resumes lie to a degree, the job of an interviewer is to investigate or sort out. I think you should stay away from that kind of organization as well. There are several reasons, but the first and foremost the interviewer is a bias/predudice. The interviewer uses personal experience as a benchmark to set on others. It is a fallacy at best. Some resumes lie to a degree, the job of an interviewer is to pick the potential candidate brain to see if it fits with the organization or the team at least.
Regards,
MCao
 
Joe Pluta
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That works for me, Herb.
Joe
 
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Joe,
People "lie" because two different people can look at "situation X" and describe it as two completely different things. To both of them - their own point of view it is the absolute truth.
For example - Look at Person "A" doing Job "B".
Person "A" could describe their job as:
Very complex and sophisticated programming. They developed and designed and coded and installed J2EE systems and architected and managed a system that consisted of 30 people over a course of 2 years.
However, you and I would describe Person "A" doing Job "B" as:
They did squat for 2 years. They walked back & forth with a coffee cup and talked about how smart they were. At the end of 2 years, the grand total of code installed into production libraries was squat. The grand total of users who used the "system" was squat. The work product that person "A" produced that was used by anybody anywhere was squat. You could have put a monkey in front of a keyboard and been just as productive.
////////
It is all a matter of perspective.
Kevin
 
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Chronic lying is one reason why I decided to acquire certifications in
strategic areas that I want to practice in. I had to go up against these
kinds of people when I was working as a professional services guy at a fairly high level. I was lied to about the capabilities of people on my team. As a result, a small number of highly competent people had to pick up the slack and do all of their work, the meanwhile trying to make the feeble minded "look busy" since the consulting manager wanted as many billable people on the project as possible. It gets worse. You get ambitious people with little experience who lie about expectations, and set you up for months worth of weekend work. In the end, you end up in a lose-lose-lose situation: Unhappy clients that had been promised undeliverable expectations, burned out high performers on your team and someone who gets promoted to management where they are given more resources to deploy to their poor acumen.
I also worked with people who LIED about their degrees. I *NEVER* lied
about my situation. I was always honest and forthcoming about being un-degreed. Now that I have finished my BS, on my own money and time, I will not tolerate anyone who lies about having a degree that they do not have.
I strongly believe in background checks... I also strongly believe in
using credit history as a metric. Granted, some people have financial speedbumps in their life that darkens their credit record; but in general, I feel that people that stretch their expectations too much (and usually have poor credit), are the kinds of people I dont want managing expectations on the job when it comes to capabilities, deliverables or for that matter the status of ongoign work.
There were far too many people in this field because of ambition, rather than ability. Many of them had no self-discipline to acquire the knowledge and depth of skill to be working in a field that others worked hard to master, and perform...
-- Jim (SCJP, SCWCD, IBM DB2)
 
Kevin Thompson
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Jim,
I also have worked with people who lied about their degrees. Since I am typically the quiet worker - I have found that co-workers "confide" things in me. But to be honest, when they "confide" with me about these types of things it just makes me sick.
But the java certifications are not free from LIARS!!!
I also have worked with people who lied about their java certifications! You would think that this wholesale type of liar would just keep their mouth shut - but no! I have also had a co-worker "confide" in me that they never passed their SCJP exam.
What is so outragious about it - is that this guy actually bragged about his certification qualfications to other programmers. It was like he had no shame!
I used to know a convicted armed robber who was a very successful programmer who worked as an independent contractor on many high profile projects here in Texas. And yes - a review of public criminal records would have turned this up - but nobody really bothers.
Kevin
[ November 29, 2003: Message edited by: Kevin Thompson ]
 
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Hi joe,
Thats okay if you not come out of your statement. But don't make people who are really true to themself and society, bather with your statements.

thanks.
 
Joe Pluta
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George, please take the time to read my statement carefully. I will try to be as clear as possible:
I did not say that all resumes contain lies. I was quoting what someone else (Teri To) said. You do understand what "quoting" someone means, right? I was simply repeating Teri's words, and then arguing because I do not agree with them.
I believe that there are many honest people like yourself who do NOT lie on their resumes. It was Teri who insists that everybody lies. So please, stop saying that I am saying something bad about you.
Do you understand this?
Joe
[ November 28, 2003: Message edited by: Joe Pluta ]
 
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Originally posted by Jim Doyle (Amherst MA):

<...>I was working as a professional services guy at a fairly high level. I was lied to about the capabilities of people on my team. As a result, a small number of highly competent people had to pick up the slack and do all of their work, the meanwhile trying to make the feeble minded "look busy" since the consulting manager wanted as many billable people on the project as possible. It gets worse. You get ambitious people with little experience who lie about expectations, and set you up for months worth of weekend work. In the end, you end up in a lose-lose-lose situation: Unhappy clients that had been promised undeliverable expectations, burned out high performers on your team and someone who gets promoted to management where they are given more resources to deploy to their poor acumen..


Ah the good old days of Professional Services and Management Consultantcy. I'd cut my throat before going back....
One point I'll make is that sometimes bad shit happens to good people. I once went from being a good C++ developer to being a mediocre Professional Services senior consultant for a year. A lot of promised training didn't materialize and the political situation turned bad. Some years later I'm again a good (Java/J2EE) developer.

Originally posted by Jim Doyle (Amherst MA):
I also worked with people who LIED about their degrees. I *NEVER* lied
about my situation. I was always honest and forthcoming about being un-degreed. Now that I have finished my BS, on my own money and time, I will not tolerate anyone who lies about having a degree that they do not have.


One thing you seem to have missed is that the worst incompetents haven't lied about degrees. They lie every day about their capabilities but nothing you can nail down that easily.

Originally posted by Jim Doyle (Amherst MA):

There were far too many people in this field because of ambition, rather than ability. Many of them had no self-discipline to acquire the knowledge and depth of skill to be working in a field that others worked hard to master, and perform...


Were? Are. A lot of these people seem attracted to the architecture field. I'd say that the proportion of nincompoops to competent people is MUCH higher than it is in senior development roles. Lousy developers tend to stick out. It's usually pretty obvious. Bad architects and 'conceptualizers' get to move on before the excrement hits the impeller. Or manage to deflect the blame onto the developers below them due to their hyperdeveloped brown-nose skills.
 
frank davis
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Would some of these issues be solved if we were licensed like other professionals (architects, doctors, accountants, etc)?
 
Al Newman
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Originally posted by herb slocomb:
Would some of these issues be solved if we were licensed like other professionals (architects, doctors, accountants, etc)?


Possibly. An effort was made to do this by the mainframer crowd back in the late 70's and early 80's, the old DPMA. They offered professional certifications which were intended to become something like the Professional Engineer programs. Unfortunately the rise of the PC destroyed this idea. No demand for it.
 
george franciscus
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Hi joe,
Yes I understand that. I read the Teri To: again..
Sorry for what I said..
Then what else I am hunger of job..What should I do to get the job soon..
Should I lie?..to what extent I should lie to get it?..
aahah..
 
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Originally posted by george franciscus:
What should I do to get the job soon..
Should I lie?..to what extent I should lie to get it?


To lie or not lie...to sin not not sin This is a dilemma everybody faces every single day of his/her life. Everybody also does make decisions. The bottom line is, you have to decide what you worth more..a job or your integrity?
And not surprisingly, because I find it quite human, a person's weights based on which he decides, are very dynamic. Today you may worth your integrity more than a job but tomorrow when you social secuirty payments run out, you may prefer to have a job at the cost of your integrity.
Disclaimer: By "you" I don't mean you, George. I mean it in a general sense.
 
Al Newman
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I've largely dropped out of this discussion because it seems to have become a flame war with fairly extreme examples being posed on both sides of the issue.
I thought Joe Pluta made an interesting and potentially useful distinction between people who actively lie and those who merely overestimate themselves. The question is how do you tell? Let's suppose I know someone who knows Unix very well, J2EE less well, and Oracle as a supporting skill only. Although aware of the difference in the quality of his various skills, she writes the narrative of his work to emphasize the J2EE work because that is where the market seems to be headed. Not necessarily a lie but also not the most stone cold self-evaluation he's ever written.
A different (perhaps less experienced) person believes he is brilliant because she is one of the better people at what is a rather slow shop, and lacks the background to know how vast his ignorance is.
The demands of perfect truth that person #1 give a realistic appraisal of her skills (as he sees them), which is more or less I'm middleing at best. Person #2, despite likely knowing less than #1, is able to claim that she is great without the reservations #1 *must* express.
Being ignorant would seem to be an asset here.
Let's assume that after 3 interviews person #2 has crashed and burnt all three times and therefore come to realize she may not be nearly as good as she'd assumed before. Is it a lie not to rewrite the resume when you come to this realization? Or for a person to try to bring their skillset up to the level that the resume shows (rather than reduce the claims made on the resume)?
Lying is wrong, but what about the skills on the margin? The ones which you know something about but not enough to call yourself an expert in? I think you tend to mislead either way you go whether you include them on the resume or leave them off. The first implies you know more than you do and the second implies you know nothing.
[ December 01, 2003: Message edited by: Alfred Neumann ]
 
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Years ago I went from job to job by merely stating the basics on my resume, but having CONTACTABLE references. And yes, I never had to tell a boss I liked his tie to get a good reference. Maybe the time has come for something measurable like that again. Or ideally, a database where information about your level and software used gets recorded twice a year, with both you and your boss present when it's entered. And once the submit button is pressed, it cannot be altered. On the day of termination, only the termination date should be entered, and no additional comments. This should then be accessible to prospective employers - to cut out the liars once and for all.
 
Matt Cao
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Originally posted by Alfred Neumann:

Lying is wrong, but what about the skills on the margin? The ones which you know something about but not enough to call yourself an expert in? I think you tend to mislead either way you go whether you include them on the resume or leave them off. The first implies you know more than you do and the second implies you know nothing.
[ December 01, 2003: Message edited by: Alfred Neumann ]


Hi Alfred,
I think on the resume you should mention it instead of drop it out completely. But when fill out application most of them breaking down the categories and rate each of them separately. There you should be more truthful because a good team have variety of specialists, it is next to impossible to find one specialize in everything. A savvy manager should know how to assemble the team. For example, let us look at our hands. Did all the finger look identical to you? No, each have its own function but serve as our hand as common goal.
Did HR people know it? Yep. They have to answer the hiring manager after all. Then why some of us could not landing a job? Aside from the macro vision, I mention earlier people have rejected from the position usually have more negative things than technical skill. Think yourself as a whole package not just one aspect.
Some companies have one stop resume highlight copy and paste, then click submit. I think it is practical and friendlier than some make you fill in the whole application on-line. It is not practical, not welcome a diversify pool of candidates. The one ought to be blame should be the architect of that project. Do not have a full grasp life skill, keep bang on a tunel aspect of his/her vision. When confront the usual answer is chain command, then he/she is not a good team member of the whole chain command.
Sorry, if I am off target. But you can see the point.
Regards,
MCao
 
Al Newman
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I think on the resume you should mention it instead of drop it out completely. But when fill out application most of them breaking down the categories and rate each of them separately. There you should be more truthful because a good team have variety of specialists, it is next to impossible to find one specialize in everything. A savvy manager should know how to assemble the team. For example, let us look at our hands. Did all the finger look identical to you? No, each have its own function but serve as our hand as common goal.


Yes, I agree. Mention the skill in the resume & work it out with the recruiter and the interviewer. I won't allow a recruiter to submit me for a role which critically depends upon a skill I know I have at supporting-level only and in an interview I quickly try to work out what is mission-critical and what 'nice to have'. I'm a big fan of telephone interviews for that reason and others. An intitial phone screening can save time and resources for both sides. I won't go on an interview if I don't think I'm well-suited for the position, but frequently there is no way to know without a phone screen.
 
With a little knowledge, a cast iron skillet is non-stick and lasts a lifetime.
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