Now its IBM!!

[Chad McGowan]

Originally posted by Simon Lee:
just wanna throw in my 2c worth for the "parasitic country" country model.
this is totally bogus. if we pay indians with $$ or UKP then the indians must spend the $$/GBP on US/UK goods & services (or invest in UK/US companies or gov bonds). This is classic interational economics where both sides are winners.
/2c

Are you saying that every US dollar paid to outsourcing companies overseas must be spent on US goods and services? If so, could you explain?

[paul wheaton]

I would like the participants in this thread to read these two web pages:
http://www.javaranch.com/md.jsp
http://www.javaranch.com/fallacy.jsp
It would be nice if each participant would go through this thread and edit their own messages so that there is no implication that anyone on JavaRanch is less than perfect.
If this isn't done, I'll delete improper messages. And if there are a lot of messages to be deleted, it will be a lot easier for me to just delete the whole thread.

[Stephen Pride]

Two things that really trouble me about this whole offshoring thing, and specificaly at it relates to IT ...
First of all, I have no problem with a foreigner who wants, and eventually will probably get, my IT job. Being in their situation, I would most definately do the same. So on a personal level with my Indian/Chinese/Other counterpart, I have no ill-feelings. My angst lies squarely on the shoulders of the executives of these companies and in some regard the governments involved.
In this age of globalization, it is only a matter of time before work and jobs get spread around to help provide profit for a company, but what irks me about it is the fact that a good majority of company's power and being was forged on the sweat and ingenuity of the worker - usually American, but not always. Now that the company has grown to a point of self-substainability, the American worker is cast aside and forgotten all because of a need to keep turning a marginable profit. And, instead of reducing salaries by 1/2 or 1/4 for cost-reduction measures, the companies bypass the decreased reduction to a full-fledged reduction of 1/8 to 1/10, or more.
Another thing that upsets me is that even in this reduction, outsourcing management companies are profiting, which takes away from the intended source - the Indian/Chinese/Other programmer/engineer. Even as we here mention of 'saving money by hiring an $8k engineer in India as opposed to a $60K engineer in the US', I wonder if the company is actually PAYING $8k for the Indian engineer in a lot of instances. And the governments - at least in India, from what I've heard - exclude foreign workers, making it impossible for the American worker to uproot and follow his/her job out of the country.
I guess if nothing else the one benefit in all this is that it has re-ignited my want for starting my own venture.

[stara szkapa]

Originally posted by Simon Lee:
just wanna throw in my 2c worth for the "parasitic country" country model.
this is totally bogus. if we pay indians with $$ or UKP then the indians must spend the $$/GBP on US/UK goods & services (or invest in UK/US companies or gov bonds). This is classic interational economics where both sides are winners.
/2c

Why must ?
What they are going to buy? Buicks and Oldsmobils ?

[Terimaki Tojay]

Originally posted by Natalie Kopple:
The "parasite" style economic development model, which India is enthusiastically pursuing, is nothing to be proud of. Parasite makes its host sick. Parasite eventually dies together with its host.

I think you are forgetting the model that the west was enthusiatically following only some 50 years ago. The model was called Imperialism or Colonialsim. Now, that's a truely parasitic model. (** icky stuff removed - PW)
As per your threory that postulates, "Parasite eventually dies together with its host", colonialists should have died along with the the host asian countries. But what really happened (and what usually does happen with parasites) was that the parasites moved on to new hosts in new ways (read WTO) while the host died.
So the western contries were and are the parasites,not India or any other third world country.
Thanks you very much.
[ December 16, 2003: Message edited by: Paul Wheaton ]

[Edy Yu]

Is it a good language to describe the Chinese economy? I am not a Chinese. What do Chinese ranchers think of Sankar's sentence?
Sankar: I really don't want to say too much of you and your country. At least I know you guys are still (** icky stuff removed - PW) while coding J2EE programs. What kind of economy is that?
[ December 16, 2003: Message edited by: Paul Wheaton ]

[Steven Broadbent]

This is getting a bit silly to say the least.

[Mark Fletcher]

Question: Is it possible that the Dollar / Rupee exchange rate could ever become a limiting factor on outsourcing to India.
Ive noticed that recently the dollar has been falling against the pound. If I assume that the dollar is also falling against the rupee, doesnt it stand that overtime it will become more expensive to outsource? I base my reasoning on the idea that US Companies that outsource their development to India are then more or less importing their software. And as the value of the dollar drops, the cost of importing it rises.
There was a recent article over on The Inquirer, on the hidden costs of Outsourcing that might be worth reading.
Anyway my take on the whole sorry matter is that good or bad, Outsourcing is here to stay. The Boom years of the late 90s are gone. Deal with it. What has to be established now is an equilibrium of what can be outsourced and what has to remain "in house". I think right now companies are outsourcing whatever they can. But in the process there will be some big failures.
Mark

[Ashok Mash]

Mark's post/question above makes perfect sense - and IMHO, sooner or later, as the cost of outsourcing increases by the rising salaries, general well being of the otherwise 'cheap labour' providing nations, (like India and China today, may be African nations a decade later), the 'flow of jobs' out of the USA will slow down, and at some stage, there will be a situation where the risk + cost of outsourcing matches that of executing the same work in the USA (lower IT salaries in USA might also be very real then).
And as always, there will be a difference in level of outsourcing in different areas - low-key work like medical transcription etc would be almost entirely done in cheaper locations, where as implimentations or other skilled, customer-facing work would remain in the USA (or where ever the customer is, for that matter).
Just my 2c.
PS: After the anti-outsourcing cries in America, in general, Indians have realised that they should keep this low-profile and carry on with their lives with out making it a bid deal, which is what Mumbai Cha Bahu had in mind when he posted earlier in the thread, I think. I agree with him on that, and rest of the thread was bit... hmmm.. let's say 'interesting' to read. :roll:

[SJ Adnams]

Are you saying that every US dollar paid to outsourcing companies overseas must be spent on US goods and services? If so, could you explain?
YES.
erm. like. what else are you gonna do with a 1 $ bill.?
1) put it under your matteresss? (until when?)
2) put it in the bank (who put's in a US bank)
3) buy US gov bonds
4) buy US gov equities
5) go to the US & spend spend spend
6) buy a US good/service.

all roads lead to 6) BTW. :0

[Bhau Mhatre]

Mark,
Just to clarify, I know you are an authority over here, and by no means do I have any intention of stepping on your toes- doing the work of unofficial Moderating. It is only after reading the words 'Job Discussion Moderator' in the signature specifically crafted as a reply to my post, did I realize that you probably felt I was undermining your authority. No, that wasn't the case. I interpreted Capablanca's intentions differently.

Joe ------------------------------------------------------
My advice is: if you don't like the discussion, simply stay out of it.
Joe replying to Map ---------------------------
My statement about staying away from the discussion was in response to someone who said they didn't want the subject of jobs being outsourced being brought up (which Mark himself said was a perfectly valid topic for this forum). I said that if they don't want to discuss outsourcing, then stay away from the discussion.
------------------------------------------------------
Just to clarify, (if the above was in reference to my post), I have nothing against discussing outsourcing. I have myself participated in one such discussion a while ago here. Also, I have refrained myself from indulging in a debate when I did not want to, even though that one lasted five full pages
- as you can see, there's not a single post from me in those pages. And I did not ask others to stop posting either. So, again, I have nothing against discussing outsourcing. I interpreted Capablanca's post a little differently.

As for Natalie's statements...---------------------------
The "parasite" style economic development model, which India is enthusiastically pursuing, is nothing to be proud of.
Parasite makes its host sick.
Parasite eventually dies together with its host.
------------------------------------------------------
Joe, Jason, & Jamie - you be the jury and the judge - below is what I felt about it.
The first part of the first statment and the second and the third statements togather combined gives me an impression that the style of economic development is parasitic such that it makes the host (US economy-in this case) sick. And eventually - both the economies will die. Okay, no personal offenses here. But I maintain that this type analysis of hers is wrong on two points-
One- As far as I know, Indian economic style is not parasitic
Two- I firmly believe that the core of the US economy is much stronger and highly vaccinated against minor viral attacks. Similar views on this thread.
The parts that were more offensive were the second and third part of the first statement.
"which India is enthusiastically pursuing" == 'People of India' are enthusiastically pursuing ?
enthusiastically == Eagerly and With lots of excitment
pursuing == try to advance is further
Means, the people of India are actively, with excitment, and purposely, trying to advance a system that makes the US economy sick. (means they are some kind of evil people who want to enthusiastically further a system to harm the US economy). This does not sound right to "me". As far as I know, nobody wants to harm other countries' economy - especially if they have business ties with them.

"is nothing to be proud of" --> By whom?
case 1- The people of India or
case 2- By Capablanca who apparently starts new threads with such news being proud of it?
If it is former case then it means => Indians should not be proud of their economic achievements because their economic development style is parasitic in nature.
If it is the later case, then it proves my point in the first post where I questioned Cap's intentions.
So now you decide whether or not those three statements combined togather imply that
"There is nothing to be proud of by the Indians about their economic development, because it is not a fruit of the hard work of the people, it has just growing by harming other economies, and that ultimately will result in the deaths of both of them. And on top of that, they are advancing that system with enthusiasm, to further hurt everyone.

Frank, Map
Thanks for atleast considering the possibility of someone going over-the-line.
Sankar,
Well, you already apologized.. good.
Capablanca,
The reason I questioned your intention was you simply copy-pasted a news article from some site. You did not comment anything about it. So I wasen't sure what is the point you are trying to make or what is it that you would like to discuss about it. And this is not the first such thread. I saw three to four such threads before too. So my first reaction was that you are proud of such news and want to boast about them here - indirecly creating flames. Sorry, if that was not what you meant to do.
Natalie,
You once asked in a different thread whether they can stop outsourcing to India. I tell you, the answer is a definate YES. Just got to wait for a couple of years more. Then they'll probably start cheapshoring to Basra Technology Park and hopefully to Gaza Technology Valley in a decade or so. So hang on!
Btw, I never heard of the term 'parasitic' economic development. If you will, please start a new thread about the various types - parasitic, symbiotic, viral, bacterial, or any other. And if you like to consider Indian software exports as a case study, or even the entrire Indian software industry, or say, the entire nation's economic development as a case study, I am all ears for all kinds of view points. Please start a new thread here or in any other appropriate forum, ofcourse, provided the 'Moderators' in those forums have no problem with that.

[Chad McGowan]

What about currency exchange? That's what I would do. Maybe some aspiring economists could chime in here, but I think that your logic is flawed. This money does not all flow back into US goods and services.

[Ranga Sreenivasan]

Originally posted by Edy Yu:
quote:
I really don't want to say too much of you and your country. At least I know you guys are still (** icky stuff removed - PW) while coding J2EE programs. What kind of economy is that?
[ December 16, 2003: Message edited by: Edy Yu ]

Was that really required? This sure is a forum where you can freely exchange ideas/opinions. But comments like these really undermine your character. Please be a little more thoughtful before making generic comments.
(Edited to keep "icky" quote in line with above message - Cindy)
[ December 16, 2003: Message edited by: Cindy Glass ]

[Bhau Mhatre]

Originally posted by Edy Yu:
I really don't want to say too much of you and your country. At least I know you guys are still (** icky stuff removed - PW) while coding J2EE programs. What kind of economy is that?

Edy buddy,
There is some kind of majistic power in the soil of the land. Boosts the mental abilities of those in close contact with it all night. As for the cow, they make good pillows and mattress, warm and nice, all night. To top it all, the fresh organic milk in the morning enlightens the brain and fills the grey cells with innovative ideas. J2EE just gets simpler everyday. I heard some top-offshoring companies are even going to provide a cows-and-dirt area in Banglore for many of their ceritification aspirants. But I tell you what, whatever is natural is natural - they can't create it artificailly. There's a whole science behind it.
(Sigh - edited to fit in with above - even if you were being humorous. Took out the response to Paul because it no longer made sense.- Cindy)
[ December 16, 2003: Message edited by: Cindy Glass ]

[Ranga Sreenivasan]

Originally posted by Mumbai cha bhau:


Edy buddy,
There is some kind of majistic power in the soil of the land. Boosts the mental abilities of those in close contact with it all night. As for the cow, they make good pillows and mattress, warm and nice, all night. To top it all, the fresh organic milk in the morning enlightens the brain and fills the grey cells with innovative ideas. J2EE just gets simpler everyday. I heard some top-offshoring companies are even going to provide a cows-and-dirt area in Banglore for many of their ceritification aspirants. But I tell you what, whatever is natural is natural - they can't create it artificailly. There's a whole science behind it.
(Sigh - edited to fit in with above - even if you were being humorous. Took out the response to Paul because it no longer made sense.- Cindy)
[ December 16, 2003: Message edited by: Cindy Glass ]

[paul wheaton]

Wow, I'm pooped! It's been a long time since I've done much moderating. In the end, this thread still isn't done. I just got bored with the topic - I mean, we're talking about economic theory here!
So I probably managed to annoy all sorts of people. I did a bunch of editing and I deleted a few posts. I even deleted stuff from sheriffs - just in case anybody might think that I'm showing favoritism.
Please, folks, let's talk about the issues and simultaneously show respect for our fellow ranchers.
If you feel your point isn't getting across, rather than saying "can't you read!?", you might try "perhaps I didn't make myself clear."
Whew!

[Mark Herschberg]

So I was feeling sick and decided to go to bed early last night. Looks like I picked the wrong time to do that.
This is a somewhat unique forum. Most other fourms have topics/questions which have clear answers. Even when there is no one answer, often the trade-offs can be clearly explained so everyone knows what the options are, and, at the end of the day, most people don't care how you choose to implement your code, it doesn't effect them.
Job Discussion however, is notably different. The topics and questions here don't always have a right answer, or even an answer. Moreover the topics are things which have a very real effect on our daily lives.
I've been moderating this forum for quite some time now. We've had a good track record thus far. Now I'm not one to discourage heated debate. More often than now, I'm the one starting it. But the debate must be bounded by professionalism.
Here is the metric I use when considering whether comments are out of bounds:

Comments about people, individual or as groups, are questionable.
Comments about non-people (including countries, policies, companies, etc) are usually ok.
Hence a description of a country's economy, even a negative one, is fine. Those who disagree with it can provide counter-arguments. Comments about the people of a county are usually crossing a line.
This latter rule is somewhat blurry. For instance, some would claim Americans are very entrapeneurial. That's a comment about people. It happens to be a positive comment. Those who choose to disagree might have to provide examples of behavior that are somewhat negative. I can't provide an easy answer for what is right, except to say, imagine that the statement you are making is being said about your people, how would that make you feel?
I also suggest keeping the following in mind. While we have something of a community here at JavaRanch, at the end of the day, we're all strangers, most of whom will never meet. Don't get bent out of shape over what some stranger on the internet thinks of you. I know there are plenty of people of think I'm stupid, annoying, ugly, etc, but I've got better things to do with my time then argue with them. If you are getting really offended by the discussion, just walk away and remind yourself that what strangers think really doesn't make much of a difference to your life.
Let's try once more for a clearly heated, but nevertheless professional discussion...
--Mark

[Mark Herschberg]

(And thank you to all the moderators who happened to be looking and in covering for me while I was out sick.)
--Mark

[Bruno Dery]

Ok, if calling the indian economy a parasite is considered ok, then let's rock with US economy / politics
When I look at US economy (and many western economies for that matter), I see nothing but a very unilateral and hypocritical way of doing business. On one hand, they push everyone around the world to open up their markets, allow free-trade yadayada, and then first thing you know is they close their markets when the competition gets too fierce, put some economic sanctions / bills to discourage americans from buying elsewhere and other markets from coming in. So how do you call that? IMO, that's a hypocritical economy... The 'free-market' concept in US is only good as long as its best for US, nothing more.
So now I'll be sitting tight, watching the flames coming in now Seriously, I think calling an economy and hence the people living in it 'parasite' is a little strong, people should at least use more diplomatic words or else expect some flaming. It should also be a policy here IMHO.
My 2 cents.

[paul wheaton]

I think the concept of "parasitic economy" is quite strong, but it is not really a flame. Provocative, yes. But not a personal attack. While it probably will turn out to be a poor analogy, I think it is valid to discuss it. Civilly.
And as for Bruno's position on the US economy, I think Bruno has done an excellent job in presenting his opinion. Provocative, yet no fallacy that I can find. I even find it persuasive. Good job Bruno.

[Mark Herschberg]

I concur with Paul's comments completely. :-)
--Mark

[Bruno Dery]

lol, cheers guys