Parasites...

[Bhau Mhatre]

Originally posted by HS Thomas:
Did these invaders all come in the hope of trading with the Indians ?

Rephrase please.

[Terimaki Tojay]

Originally posted by Tony Collins:
I supose the British Empire left India with the education system that allowed them to produce top engineers and mathematicians. Maybe India would be in the same state as Africa without the British. Maybe ?
Tony

In case you don't know, lot of the African continent was a british colony. So they had their education thing going on there too.
[ December 18, 2003: Message edited by: Terimaki Tojay ]

[Terimaki Tojay]

Originally posted by JiaPei Jen:

I do not know whether or not the US has exploited loopholes to block Indian cotton or steel products. Has India filed any litigation against the US? Has WTO come up with a conclusion that the US violated the rules? I am not challenging your allegation. I am simply asking two questions because I do not know if the US is proven guilty.

If you are using a loophole, you won't be accused or proven guilty of any wrong doing. That's why it is called a "loophole", FYI.
BTW, recently the WTO ruled against the US ban on steel imports. However, the main motive of the US govt., which was to buy time for its own US companies, was successful although it was illegal (as proven by the European countries in WTO).

[Tony Collins]

Even though the British Empire did do some terrible things they also did do some good things. Do you think wifes of dead men should throw themselfs on the funeral pyre. I find that a bit primitive myself. And you can't deny that the British left India with an education system.

Tony

[Thomas Paul]

Originally posted by Terimaki Tojay:
However, US did exploit Human wealth of Africa in the form of slavery.

And we paid with our bloodiest war to end that inhuman institutuion.

[Paul McKenna]

Originally posted by Terimaki Tojay:
You are just throwing up statements without any evidence to back them up. Which loop holes are you talking about??? If you don't care to clear your position on your previous statements then there is no point in making more.
You are very quick in asking others to back their statements but do not seem to care about your own statements :roll:

I "think" you very well know all the loopholes I'm talking about. But I could be wrong, and let me refresh your memory.
1. H1Bs - Hiring of software engineers from abroad when they have more than enough local talent.
2. L1s - Use of these visas to get around wage regulations of H1B
These practises are not illegal but legal and "legally flawed". Therefore these are called loopholes and thats what many of these people are trying to fight off. Hey! I'll be one of the many affected if these people effectively fix these loopholes but I'm confident I'll find something better to do when I find myself in that situation.
Regarding the British.. I have no regrets about them ruling India. Sure they could have done a lot of things differently, but tough luck! My grandparents served The Crown proudly and I have no qualms about it.

[Ranga Sreenivasan]

Originally posted by Tony Collins:
Do you think wifes of dead men should throw themselfs on the funeral pyre.

And you think its because of the education system (that the British left behind) that this isn't happening anymore???

[Terimaki Tojay]

Originally posted by Tony Collins:
Even though the British Empire did do some terrible things they also did do some good things. Do you think wifes of dead men should throw themselfs on the funeral pyre. I find that a bit primitive myself. And you can't deny that the British left India with an education system.

Tony

Dude, what is your point? Because if you trying to throw dirt then I can do that too. Please do not digress. Again, this is not about India Vs US or UK. This is about Western contries vs. the "third world" countries.
Please do google on British education system in india, you'll get your answer.

[Terimaki Tojay]

Originally posted by Paul McKenna:

1. H1Bs - Hiring of software engineers from abroad when they have more than enough local talent.
2. L1s - Use of these visas to get around wage regulations of H1B

OK, now you might want to find out who are the biggest beneficiaries of this loophole. Big American Corporations. That's the only reason why this loophole is not plugged yet.
The moment big players, who contrubute to election funds, give a go ahead, they'll spend no time in scraping H1B or L1. So please stop blaming Indians or any other H1Bs for "using" the loophole. They are not using the loophole. They themselves are being used by the big corporations.

[Tony Collins]

Did the British not clamp down on the enforced suicide of females in India? Did this not cause a massive revolt at the time ? Haven't the western nations campaigned for sexual equality in India ? Femaele Infanticide is still rife. This isn't throwing mud. I am just pointing out that the British were not all bad.

[Bhau Mhatre]

Originally posted by Terimaki Tojay:
So please stop blaming Indians or any other H1Bs for "using" the loophole. They are not using the loophole. They themselves are being used by the big corporations.

If I remember right, I think they (americans) themselves have already this before what you are saying now. Come on TT!.
(Well, except for a few who blame it on our 'style' of economic development. But that's okay, once in a while..)

[Natalie Kopple]

India is the second biggest beneficiaries of those loopholes. India, I mean as a country, is so happy with the existence of those loopholes and wish they never get closed up. Are those loopholes the improperly prepared food that the host has eaten?

[Terimaki Tojay]

Originally posted by Natalie Kopple:
India is the second biggest beneficiaries of those loopholes.

Yes, but not because US comapnies love India. The problem lies with the US companies that they want to make money. They don't care a dime about India. (** icky stuff removed - PW)

Originally posted by Natalie Kopple:

India, I mean as a country, is so happy with the existence of those loopholes and wish they never get closed up. Are those loopholes the improperly prepared food that the host has eaten?

What??
[ December 18, 2003: Message edited by: Paul Wheaton ]

[paul wheaton]

This is certainly an exciting topic. I know that I am learning a great deal.
Once again, I would like to ask participants on JavaRanch to show respect for their fellow ranchers. All JavaRanch participants are without flaw, please do not imply anything to the contrary. You are welcome to state that you do not agree with a point of view.
I have deleted some posts and some less than wholesome commentary just now. I don't like doing it, mostly because my internet connection is so slow and it takes a while. If you would like to have your opinions stay on my site for years to come, I suggest that you temper your statements to fit within my comfort zone.
One quick tip: Before submitting a comment, double check for the word "you". Lots of times, the word "you" is part of something that I will want to delete. Sometimes I might not be patient and just delete the whole post. Sometimes I'll be less patient and delete the whole thread.
I'm glad to see such strong passion and caring about world affairs. I'm also glad to see several of you carefully avoiding fallacy. Thanks for taking the extra time to make me a happy guy!

[Tara Bhattacharjee]

Teri To,
Didn't have time to read the entire thread but I agree with what you said. No one gives a darn about India if there was no money to be made. Blame the big companies in US that are trying to take the money from the US citizens and not help the US economy.
India did not open up their country until recently for foreign investments. Now IBM can directly compete with Indian consulting firms for global services. So, Indian owned consulting companies may feel threatened too! Don't forget all this would have happend sooner if
#1 India opened up for foreign investment sooner
#2 If things didn't go bad in Israel. I was in Israel in 2001 because we were working with a small SW company there. At the time most big companies have camps in Haifa but I belive they pulled back investments after watching the violence grow in that area. India just happened to be the next best choice ( only because Israel is closer than India to US).

[Sonny Gill]

It is too late now for this thread to die a graceful death; let it die anyway! :roll:

[HS Thomas]

HT : Did these invaders all come in the hope of trading with Indians.

Originally posted by Mumbai cha bhau:

Rephrase please.

Just wondered whether trade was a natural pre-cursor to invasion.
The Brits came to trade with the East and set up bases in India. The biggest company was the East India Trading Company.
Perhaps the Mughals and other invaders came to trade as well. When there were too many of them the balance shifted and it was considered an invasion.

[Bhau Mhatre]

Originally posted by HS Thomas:
Just wondered whether trade was a natural pre-cursor to invasion.
The Brits came to trade with the East and set up bases in India. The biggest company was the East India Trading Company.
Perhaps the Mughals and other invaders came to trade as well. When there were too many of them the balance shifted and it was considered an invasion.

Trading comodities, cultures, arts, and science, within the sub-contitnent and outside including central asia and south-east asia already existed even during the Indus Valley Civilizations.
There were many other reasons for outsiders to come. Some sought refuge in India
Bene Iserail Jews - persucetion in Galilee - 2 BC
Other jews after Fall of the second temple - 70 AD
Syrian Christians (Thomas Cananeus) running away persecution by Sassanian rulers of Iran. - 1 AD
Parsis from Persia running away from Islamization of Iran/Iraq by the Arabs/Turks - 900 AD
Some others came with the sole purpose of conquering, acquiring wealth, spreading their culture, and religions -
Alexander invasion 325 BC
Greeks invasion 150 BC
Huns invasion 445 AD
Arabs / Turkish (Mohamed of Ghazni) expansion of Islam 1000 AD
Mongols, Genghis Khan, 1100 AD
Timur - 1398-400
Babur - 1526
In the above cases, trade was not a pre-cursor to invasion.

[Axel Janssen]

The first european colonialization powers which concentrated on southern asia were the p�rtuguese followed by the dutch.
Both are really quite small nations. They simply didn't have enough people to send an occupation army abroad. So they concentrated on trade.
Nations with bigger populations like Spain, England, France and later Germany followed a different pattern. They tended to controll the colony militarily, politically and economically.
and:
Early european colonization was often motivated by naive legends about exagerated richness of the region to explore. They expected complete cities made of gold, fountains of youth and stuff like that. With their pre-rationale mediaval mindset they really believed that stuff. Those early explorers were necesary for information gathering of the later capitalist trading companies. Colonialization remained a risky business. Often the trading companies didn't fullfill the high expectations and purely economically they weren't that significant. The psychological impact for both parties (colonisators and colonialized) were much bigger.
[ December 22, 2003: Message edited by: Axel Janssen ]

[Mike Brown]

I think all of the problems with the Indians can be blamed on the cowboys.

[David O'Meara]

and an Indian would never behave the same way, would they?
They would never, for example, take over a weaker nation and suppress the local inhabitants until there was some kind of reckoning?
The Fiji Coup
I only bring this up since the original post (to me) seems to say no-one can mourn jobs lost to Indian off-shoring due to greavances committed in the past. One is not the other.
I wish this thread a happy death, I'm not sure there is any common ground to be gained based on such a premise.

[JiaPei Jen]

Jesus said:

He that is without sin among you, let him cast the first stone.

According to the Gospel of John, the Pharisees, in an attempt to discredit Jesus, brought a woman charged with adultery before him. Then they reminded Jesus that adultery was punishable by stoning under Mosaic law and challenged him to judge the woman so that they might then accuse him of disobeying the law. Jesus thought for a moment and then replied, �He that is without sin among you, let him cast the first stone at her.� The people crowded around him were so touched by their own consciences that they departed. When Jesus found himself alone with the woman, he asked her who were her accusers. She replied, �No man, lord.� Jesus then said, �Neither do I condemn thee: go and sin no more.�

[HS Thomas]

To create a society where both chauvinism and racism cannot flourish Indian and other immigrant groups must be willing to adapt, assimilate and embrace the Fijian and Pacific character of the nation. It is a character that is not theirs to change. If not they will condemn their children to labour with the same problems they have inherited."

I thought this might be specific to Fiji being a small island nation ;.
I have met cricket loving Guyanaians and Trinidadians of Indian origin ( originally from India in the 18th Century) - they seemed to happily assimilate from both cultures.
Sir Vidiadhar Surajprasad Naipaul - the author VS Naipaul is Trinidadian of Indian origin..
I'm sure there'd be Fijian Indians that Fijians will be proud of. Vijay Singh a world champion golfer comes to mind. I've also bumped into a small Fijian Indian community in California. There was something distinctly Fijian about them , that they were very proud of.
To them, it distinguished them from being (only) Indian.

[Terimaki Tojay]

Originally posted by David O'Meara:
and an Indian would never behave the same way, would they?
They would never, for example, take over a weaker nation and suppress the local inhabitants until there was some kind of reckoning?
The Fiji Coup
I only bring this up since the original post (to me) seems to say no-one can mourn jobs lost to Indian off-shoring due to greavances committed in the past. One is not the other.
I wish this thread a happy death, I'm not sure there is any common ground to be gained based on such a premise.

This article proves nothing contrary to what my original post was about. Indians did not go to fuji on their own trying to loot indigenous people. The british forcibly took them there. The plight of such Indians is so much worse. They are neither here nor there.
So I am not sure what are you trying to say by mentioning the url.

[HS Thomas]

Dave O'Meara posted :
I only bring this up since the original post (to me) seems to say no-one can mourn jobs lost to Indian off-shoring due to greavances committed in the past. One is not the other.
It's important not to let guilt for real and imagined grievances to get in the way. Especially for those losing jobs to the rest of the World.
Easier said than done.

[David O'Meara]

Originally posted by HS Thomas:
Easier said than done.

There's a lot of that in the world today.
I guess two points I object to is expanding the actions of English colonialism into 'The Western World' and therefore the USA, and then using this as the reason offshoring is justified.
So I am not sure what are you trying to say by mentioning the url.
If being treated poorly in Indian gives India rights against Europe, including the USA, do the actions from the link give Fiji any rights against India, including, say, Sri Lanka?
I was being a touch sarcastic in posting the link. (I'm Australian, not American, and being irreverant trouble-makers is as close to a culture as we've been able to manage so far) If you distil the initial post to "England mistreated India, so America can't complain about offshoring", I was saying one does not relate the other.
I'm not convinced this is a conversation about the job market and belongs in this forum.

[Ashok Mash]

Who's trying to wake up the ancient evils (threads)?

Move along, nothing to see here!

[Jesse Torres]

Originally posted by Ashok Mash:
Who's trying to wake up the ancient evils (threads)?

Move along, nothing to see here!

Sorry I was trying to perform a search on the Linux forum and accidental selected Jobs discussion on "Search Forum." One thing led to another, and I wound up reading ancient evil threads.

Sorry!

[Serghei Jelauc]

Indians do not respect of themselvef. They are ready to make a work for a very little money. I know some guyes from other contries(from ex USSR) the have some outsourcing projectcs which they could lost becouse of the indians wanted a funny price for that projects.

What about British? Half of the indians live without electricity and so on. But if there was not British, all the India would not have the electricity, railways and many many other things.

Now, let see the China. Population of the India may be comparable with the population of china. But chinas guys are very hard workers. China produces many many goods (from the toys to the modern electronics). China's sportsmens take a prizes places on any games (olimpic, worlds championships ans so on). Can you say the same words about india? The answer is NO NO NO.

Best regards
[ November 17, 2004: Message edited by: Serghei Jelauc ]

[Sonny Gill]

But they communicate well in English (most of the time).

[peter wooster]

Originally posted by Jesse Torres:

Sorry I was trying to perform a search on the Linux forum and accidental selected Jobs discussion on "Search Forum." One thing led to another, and I wound up reading ancient evil threads.

Sorry!

It's a bit like throwing things down a deep well in a very dark place (fool of a Took). Where's a Sheriff when we need one.

[Mark Herschberg]

Moderation is a last resort, and we try not to interfere in threads unless we have to.

I'm currently letting another thread stay open which is a tricky subject, but one which is valid.

The topic of this thread is inflamatory and I'd rather see it quietly fade away. If there is interest in reviving it and it can follow the "be nice" rules, I'll keep it open. (But the recent posts are dubious on on the front, at best.) Tread lightly, folks, or just let it die.

--Mark