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Given up on Software

 
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Originally posted by Steven Broadbent:
Is it just my opinion or has this business always had a fair percentage of piss-takers, fantasists and cowboys - kinda the wild west of professions.


Yes. It was particularly pronounced in the ranks of independent consultants. Some were among the very best. Others didn't have the personality traits to be able to keep a steady job....
[ February 06, 2004: Message edited by: Bela Bardak ]
 
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Can you make any claims unless you are familiar with other professions? I used to party with this hospital administrator. She said They are ok until they start acting like nurses.
 
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Is there any hope?
 
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I am familiar with some other fields, but I'd so programming leads the way as far as the fruitcake factor goes.
 
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Originally posted by Rufus BugleWeed:
Can you make any claims unless you are familiar with other professions? I used to party with this hospital administrator. She said They are ok until they start acting like nurses.


Hi,
That is so true. They have a commons symptom of thinking themselves as doctor and diagnose you on spot. Third world countries are even worser.
But then again, I have seen technicians thinking of themselves as engineers. :roll:
Regards,
MCao
 
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I do not understand!
I will tell you why the Indians WIN.
Because they work hard, and are determined people.
Sorry to say it but the WEST falls back in many ways to the EAST.
AND, that is why they will win.
Until things get so bad and a world war will occurr.
OK THEN QUITTERS, RUN OFF TO YOUR NEW CAREER.
Just remember your a quitter, havn't got what it takes to succeed and be the best!
(UK resident)



Indians do not succeed because they work harder than UK citizens. They succeed because they are 10x cheaper.



Apart from the above points one thing I would like to highlight for Indian IT professionals that they face very tough competition in their career. If you are born in India then you have to face competition in every phase of your life, starting from your eductaion to get enter in to a good college, to take the job in the market and even in your organisation you have to compete with your colleagues, I think this refines the India IT professionals and when you get this cream in low price then surely Indians are the first choice. Like tony has given up in s/w dveleopment if he were born and brought up in India I think he would not have given up so easly.
 
Matt Cao
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Originally posted by Sameer Jamal:


Apart from the above points one thing I would like to highlight for Indian IT professionals that they face very tough competition in their career. If you are born in India then you have to face competition in every phase of your life, starting from your eductaion to get enter in to a good college, to take the job in the market and even in your organisation you have to compete with your colleagues, I think this refines the India IT professionals and when you get this cream in low price then surely Indians are the first choice. Like tony has given up in s/w dveleopment if he were born and brought up in India I think he would not have given up so easly.


Hi,
In any country do not have population control methods and mean will face the same scenario as you describe. It has nothing to do with your people determination nor intelligent.
Regards,
MCao
 
Steven Broadbent
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No, I don't think so. UK and US have created a few good programmers you know.
And we will found out just how good a lot of outsourcing shops are when China becomes the next convenient saving.

"You get what you pay for" - a fundamental rule.
 
Matt Cao
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Hi Steven,
Yep. What you have said is what everyone have decent IQ are awared. The US Textile industry specially in California already jumping in fear because next year the import limitation quota from China is done. They will eat all the competitions from all over the world not just US. Even HongKong is fear for not knowing what is their territory next meal will be from.
IT is not very far from behind. Electronics, they are already in it. Currently, they still have to learn how to diffuse product levels. I am confident they will master it very soon. Taiwanese companies all have facilities in China, I have no idea why those companies executives love drawing cakes.
I am sympathized for Indian IT because during the dotcom boom a lot of American IT behave the same way. But for the American behave that way because all their lives, they only see things produced by American, they have no idea that dollars brought the cream of the crops from all over the world to US for making those wonderful products. Is India will used the power of rupee? Is the power of rupee will stand against dollar? Japan yen has tried and flunk miserably. But Japan has the infrastructure for their people to rely upon. Indian because of national pride always challenged you on about having this or that product made. As far as an average American consumer, I have not seen it.
Regards,
MCao
[ February 16, 2004: Message edited by: Matt Cao ]
 
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Originally posted by Sameer Jamal:


Apart from the above points one thing I would like to highlight for Indian IT professionals that they face very tough competition in their career. If you are born in India then you have to face competition in every phase of your life, starting from your eductaion to get enter in to a good college, to take the job in the market and even in your organisation you have to compete with your colleagues, I think this refines the India IT professionals and when you get this cream in low price then surely Indians are the first choice. Like tony has given up in s/w dveleopment if he were born and brought up in India I think he would not have given up so easly.


To say that Indians work harder or are more intelligent than the Westerners in not accurate. Neither is it accurate to say that the Westerners work harder or are more intelligent than Indians.
It is true that the competition that Indians face in India (not just in IT) from fellow Indians is more fierce than what their western counterparts face in their own countries. This is primarily because of the population in India. It is simply the case of a whole lot of supply for a whole lot less of demand. This is the cause for the Indian to work like a cog in the wheel. If he doesn't, there is someone else waiting to replace him at a moments notice. In the US especially (IT outsourcing notwithstanding) there are opportunities galore for everyone. So, they can afford to work a little harder, if they choose to & not because they are lazy.
Traditionally, in India education has had a premium. Not so in the US (can't say about other western countries). This does not mean that the westerners are stupider than Indians. It just points to the fact that in India you need to have a good education, a degree with very good grades in order to even find a job. And unless you have a good job, you can't earn a living & certainly cannot become prosperous. In the US, you don't need a school education to make something of/for yourself. This is because the US culture, the system of governance and the ideals of capitalism allows this to flourish. And when it does this country florishes even more. In India, I've hardly any choice but to go through the boring classes about subjects that I know I'll never ever use. In US I have more of a choice in this regard. I'll go get a degree/post-grad/whatever only if I want it. In India I have to get it whether I want. Especially in the more technical areas, anything less than a Masters degree will be fairly useless. Of course the current IT boom has changed this scenario in India.
Indians tend to be generally more (than Americans) education oriented; Americans are generally more (than Indians) very skilled entrepreneurs. This does not mean that Americans don't do well in education or that there are no entrepreneurial Indians. This is just statistically & numerically speaking. Since in US one doesn't need a degree to make a good living and be prosperous and Americans decide to do what they want to do, even if it means dropping out of school because school has become a hindrance to their dreams.
Indians tend to have a rather docile, fatalistic attitude towards everything. Not so the Americans. They have a very gung-ho attitude. An Indian will likely say "We may do it, eventually" or "This cannot be done". But an American is more likely to say "Eventually? Why eventually? Lets do it now" or "If it is not possible we will do it anyway". It is this pioneering attitude that has made this country what it is today, in a short 230 yrs.
I believe some Indians have a superiority complex. I wonder if this is their way of thumbing their noses at the Super Power. To be fair, their are some ugly Americans too (please note that these 2 statements are not MD posters driven; this is my very humble opinion about the 2 peoples at large) . And that could be because they are the Super Power.
 
Matt Cao
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Originally posted by Sadanand Murthy:

Americans are generally more (than Indians) very skilled entrepreneurs.


Hi,
Nope. This is bias. Americans are lousy enterpreneurs. They are very scientific and systematic in whatever life toss at them. For example, Recycle industry, it was established by Chinese in French-Indochina way back in the 19th Century. Those Chinese collected toss-away products from the French, Swedish, German, and etc. savaged and categorized the components and melted them out, then sold them back to those Westerners as raw materials. Americans studied and applied to water, garbage, aluminum, and etc. They were written books, gathered funds, and created recycle plants. Then teached people about it, many people will follow and create a recycle industry completing with government laws because not everyone are silver-spoons and in able to get funding from government you have to follow a certain set of rules and regulations.


I believe some Indians have a superiority complex.


Are you making fun of my fiancee?
Regards,
MCao
 
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Sadanand,
I agree with every thing you said about Indians. But about Americans- I don't think they are necessarily better enterpreneurs. They just know the system in the US better and can play it better because it is their country and they have a natural advantage. In the midwest where I live and work, there is a lot of nepotism at the executive/management level. For most Indians (unless they come with Harvard MBAs and good looks) it is pretty hard to break into those circles.
 
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Nope. This is bias. Americans are lousy enterpreneurs. They are very scientific and systematic in whatever life toss at them.


I'm not sure this is true, Matt. But it does seem that the US is one of the better places to BE an enterpreneurs, as the success of many Chinese and Indians in the US seems to show.
 
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Originally posted by Matt Cao:

Are you making fun of my fiancee?
Regards,
MCao



I'd never have guessed from your posts.
 
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Originally posted by Tara Bhattacharjee:
Sadanand,
I agree with every thing you said about Indians. But about Americans- I don't think they are necessarily better enterpreneurs. They just know the system in the US better and can play it better because it is their country and they have a natural advantage.


Americans are a self-slected group of risk takers. The first non-native residents were people who thought differently than mainstream culture. They ended up taking a very high risk journey to a destination they knew nothing about. Many died, whole colonies failed, but some survived and are our ancestors.
During the 18th century, more people immigrated to what is now the US. They did so be also taking a risky journey. They gave up everything they knew, family, friends, job, house, to come to a foreign land. Some of them arrived greatly in debt, as indentured servants. They survived and are our ancestors.
During the 19th century America was told to "go west". Such a prospect seem daring, to risk native americans and hostile lands to seek fortune in small cities on the edge of civilization is fairly high risk. (Excuse the non-PC nature of the previous statement, I'm describing it from their perspective.) Nevertheless, many did take such a risk, survived and are our ancestors.
Americans choose to come here. They choose the high risk, high reward strategy. It is in our blood and in our culture. This may change with time, but right now, we are who our forefathers made us, enterpreneurs, innovators, and gamblers.
--Mark
 
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Heh,
I really don't understand what you (UK folks) are talking about.
Whenever I do a job search in London Alone I find 100's of Java jobs, and the wages are among the highest in the EU. I have always thought that the UK is the Eldora-do of EU IT jobs, especially when taking in consideration the position requirements; the only country where you can search for graduate IT jobs. I have seen a lots of adds, and they just require Java knowledge and a bit of JSP/Servlets, no EJB and no fancy framework. I have not checked for jobs in the UK for the last 3-4 months though (Used to do comparison of the job market). DO you guys mean like once you go to the interview they ask about stuff not mentioned in the adds?
 
Matt Cao
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Originally posted by Tara Bhattacharjee:
In the midwest where I live and work, there is a lot of nepotism at the executive/management level. For most Indians (unless they come with Harvard MBAs and good looks) it is pretty hard to break into those circles.


Hi,
I do not think nepotism is the word. I certainly think it has to do with point of reference. Hire someone similarly like the people you grew up with. But what encouraging in US is more and more are living in the mix races, mix cultures, and mix ethnics. It is not a coincident, but it is well plan by the Federal government in disguise as mortgage brokers. In parallel, the mordern day in US creates a new type demography such as economy power control groups tend to live among themselves a sort of second rate utopia. So you have to pick where you live too to benefit work, family, children welfare, etc.
Regards,
MCao
 
Steven Broadbent
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Many of those "jobs" posted are not real. This should be illegal and I am seriously thinking about doing something about it.
 
Sadanand Murthy
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Originally posted by Tara Bhattacharjee:
Sadanand,
I agree with every thing you said about Indians. But about Americans- I don't think they are necessarily better enterpreneurs. They just know the system in the US better and can play it better because it is their country and they have a natural advantage. In the midwest where I live and work, there is a lot of nepotism at the executive/management level. For most Indians (unless they come with Harvard MBAs and good looks) it is pretty hard to break into those circles.


Can't agree with you on this, Tara. Americans are not averse to taking risks. And entrepreneurship is all about taking risks. They, generally, don't sit back when confronted with risks, or it-can't-be-dones; they just do it. They make mistakes in the process; but they learn from it & they don't let the circumstances bring them down. Just look where this country is today vis-a-vis the rest of the world. And it got here in a little over 200 yrs.
Regarding nepotism in the midwest area - this is everywhere, the world over. I don't think you can deny that there is a lot more nepotism in India. But that doesn't mean anything when discussing who is more entrepreneurial. Working for someone does not make that person an entrepreneur. OK, So Indians (non-Harvard grads) have a very hard time breaking into their good-old-boy network. So? Why don't these Indians become entrepreneurs and start something on their own? There is nothing to stop in this country from doing so other than their own fear, fear of failure, fear of taking risks & losing.
[ February 18, 2004: Message edited by: Sadanand Murthy ]
 
Sadanand Murthy
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Originally posted by Matt Cao:

Are you making fun of my fiancee?
Regards,
MCao


As HST said, I never would have guessed. But, then again, most of my colleagues (Indian and non) generally get surprised when they find out that my wife is an American & not Indian.
 
Tara Bhattacharjee
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Sadanand and Matt,
Ok, I was a little off by talking about nepotism at work place in stead of enterprenuership. But I did not say Americans did not take risks. There are many things I have learned by being in the US and living with the Americans, one of which is just that- taking risks. Also, I was not comparing American workplace to Indian. Having left India real young, I have never worked in India. So, I wouldn't know the nepotism there. Even though I wouldn't doubt that it would be worse there than in the US.
I am not discouraged by my life in the US, I am having a lot of fun. What I am discouraged by is the politics at the top, they do exist even in the US. So, if you want to work for someone else, it is pretty difficult especially if you are ambitious.
 
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RE: Fake Jobs

Tony, Stephen. Yes! Lots of the jobs on job websites are fake. They are put there by .. (spit on ground) recruitment consultants to try and 'harvest' CVs. When you call up the jobs are always 'not available' but 'can I have your CV anyway'.
I would say easily 25% are fake.
j
 
Steven Broadbent
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I will trying to make some sort of complaint about this soon. Some agencies are members of an org that has a professional code of conduct.
It is ticking me off to see the same fake adds reappearing day after day, week after week.
 
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