Upping the H1-B Quota numbers

[Jason Cox]

Originally posted by Elizabeth King:
I still see many new US CS/EE graduates could not find a job although the tech job market is better than three years ago...

Well, we actually have hired some recent grads and I'm currently working with a couple myself.

I do think the focus on new graduates is lost and this is part of our failure in investing in the future. All businesses seem to want is people with "5+ years of experience". Of course, this is the classic problem, how do people get those 5 years of experience if no one will hire them?

At a previous client, they wanted to hire me away from the firm I was working for. When that didn't work they tried to hire someone who basically would fit my skillset. I looked at the work that they had and the team they had left and advised them that they might be better off hiring a couple of college grads instead of trying to find another me. The reason being is that they hired a great senior dev and what they had was a golden opportunity to train up some people to fit into their environment and work culture. They had plenty of grunt work that would also have doubled very well as learning experience for new developers.

Alas, they didn't go for it. They wanted another me and that is what they spent their time looking for. When my contract expired, they had still not found anyone.

Businesses don't ask what they need, only what they want. Sometimes you NEED that experienced developer veteran. Sometimes you might just be able to train a college grad to do it. When I hear businesses complain about the cost of programmers, I wonder if they ever stop and think about the level they insist on hiring at?

[Homer Phillips]

I still see many new US CS/EE graduates could not find a job although the tech job market is better than three years ago...

Why hire a recent college grad when you can hire an H1-B non-immigrant with a couple years experience for the same money?

[Tim Cao]

hi all,

Back to the original post, does anyone know what state the proposal (bill) is in? Has it come into effect yet or, as someone already mentioned, it's getting diluted somewhere?

Thanks all,

Tim.

[Elizabeth King]

Originally posted by Homer Phillips:

Why hire a recent college grad when you can hire an H1-B non-immigrant with a couple years experience for the same money?

I know several H1Bs even do not have a college degree, and are still learning Java. I was told they were here because of some kind of agreements between
the two goverments. Their salaries are lower than new US graduates' although
my company pays the bodyshop at about the same rate as paying US
consulting firms.

Now you know why some employers like H1B....
[ November 03, 2005: Message edited by: Elizabeth King ]

[trupti nigam]

Originally posted by Elizabeth King:


I know several H1Bs even do not have a college degree, and are still learning Java. I was told they were here because of some kind of agreements between
the two goverments. [ November 03, 2005: Message edited by: Elizabeth King ]

This is really a new information to me!! Agreement between two Government!!

Can you please give any reference to the above statement.On what bases are you saying this?

Thanks,
Trupti

[Jim Baker]

Originally posted by Jim Baker:
It is time to take action.

http://www.washtech.org/news/legislative/display.php?ID_Content=5017

Send a letter to Your Congressperson

Below is the sample letter:

Subject: Plan to Raise H-1b Cap by 30,000

Dear [decision maker name],

I strongly oppose the Senate Judiciary Committee's compromise proposal that would allow 30,000 additional H-1B visas each year. Instead, I urge you to support the current House Judiciary Committee's proposal, which would raise the L-1 visa fee to $1,500, but does not add any extra visas in either program. The increased fees would bring in more revenue, but would also more accurately reflect the cost to our society for supporting such programs.

It's well known by workers that the visa programs are awash with abuse by employers. They displace American workers, depress wages, and discourage young people from pursuing careers in the high-tech industry. It also puts foreign workers at risk and may further a "brain drain" in other countries. Most alarming, it encourages employers to use contingent staffing solutions, instead of creating jobs that support workers, their families, and their communities. This approach should only be used when it is essential, not as a permanent staffing strategy.

I urge you to consider the social costs of these visa programs and rein them in with increased costs, instead of expanding them with extra visas. As a high-tech worker, I am depending on you!

Sincerely,

[Your name]

[ November 01, 2005: Message edited by: Jim Baker ]

The quickest and easiest way to send above letter to your law makers is to use their web sites:

http://www.senate.gov/general/contact_information/senators_cfm.cfm

http://www.house.gov/writerep/

It should be done ASAP.

[Henry Wong]

Originally posted by Jim Baker:

The quickest and easiest way to send above letter to your law makers is to use their web sites:

http://www.senate.gov/general/contact_information/senators_cfm.cfm

http://www.house.gov/writerep/

It should be done ASAP.

Not that I agree with this. In fact, I am leaning towards disagreeing with this... but...

If I was a Senator, I would tend to place a lower value on a letter that is worded exactly the same as other letters. If someone doesn't feel strong enough to write a letter in their own words, why should I feel strong about it?

Henry

[Mark Herschberg]

Originally posted by Henry Wong:


Not that I agree with this. In fact, I am leaning towards disagreeing with this... but...

If I was a Senator, I would tend to place a lower value on a letter that is worded exactly the same as other letters. If someone doesn't feel strong enough to write a letter in their own words, why should I feel strong about it?

Henry

It's commonly refered to as a petition and they have a long history of influence in US politics. One of the most powerful uses of this tool comes from the NRA who sends out postcards to all their members when they target a bill. An elected official may literally get millions of post cards when the NRA targets a bill.

--Mark

[Henry Wong]

Originally posted by Mark Herschberg:

It's commonly refered to as a petition and they have a long history of influence in US politics. One of the most powerful uses of this tool comes from the NRA who sends out postcards to all their members when they target a bill. An elected official may literally get millions of post cards when the NRA targets a bill.

--Mark

Mark, I understand the purpose.

I am just saying that when the words are the same, there is little difference between 10 letters, and one letter with 10 signatures.

Henry

[Homer Phillips]

It's a well written letter that hits the target. It would be better if you'd call your reps in their districts or state.

[Anand Prabhu]

Originally posted by Jim Baker:



The quickest and easiest way to send above letter to your law makers is to use their web sites:

http://www.senate.gov/general/contact_information/senators_cfm.cfm

http://www.house.gov/writerep/

It should be done ASAP.

Aren't you guys a bit too late? I read in yesterday's (11/04/2005)Wall Street Journal that the Senate had already passed the move along with others like the drilling of the Arctic Reserves. Or am I reading of some other legislation?

[Jim Baker]

Originally posted by Anand Prabhu:


Aren't you guys a bit too late? I read in yesterday's (11/04/2005)Wall Street Journal that the Senate had already passed the move along with others like the drilling of the Arctic Reserves. Or am I reading of some other legislation?

Yes, Senate passed it.

http://www.newindpress.com/Newsitems.asp?ID=IEH20051104111036&Title=Top+Stories&Topic=0

But it is not too late. You can still write to your congressperson.

[Tim Cao]

Jim,

I appreciate that everyone is entitled to his/her opinion. However, I think many, if not most, people here in javaranch are non US-citizens, and many of them are actually looking for a position with a US company. As a consequence, I dont think you will get too many responses from this venue. I might be wrong though.

Besr regards,

Tim.

[Eric Lemaitre]

Hi Tim !

I appreciate that everyone is entitled to his/her opinion. However, I think many, if not most, people here in javaranch are non US-citizens, and many of them are actually looking for a position with a US company. As a consequence, I dont think you will get too many responses from this venue. I might be wrong though.

IMHO all these responses would be totally irrelevant anyway, as the real question is never asked.

At both extremes there is on one side industrial lobbies who can't be trusted because they want the most qualified for cheapset wages even from abroad, on the other side US IT citizens lobbies who can't be trusted either because they want to keep all jobs for US citizens only even if they aren't qualified enough. These 2 totally opposite lobbies want many IT pros in US to lower wages for one, scarce IT pros in US to raise wages and lower unemployment for the other. Both do their job, they can't be blamed for it, but none may be trusted because they defend partisan interests.

The real question to me is : where is the trustful authority which should estimate how many IT pros are really lacking in US, and whether the staff already there is skilled enough ? It must be US gov, of course, but it looks like as usual it doesn't do its job, despite skilled IT pros avaibility is claimed a strategical matter for US. In fact nobody knows at all in US whether skilled IT pros are lacking or not, so as to estimate how many visas should be set without spoiling US citizens. This is why US congress always does the easiest and stupidest thing possible each time, like each year : if skilled aliens seem to be lacking it cuts the asked figure in two so as not to disatisfy too much both parties. But the real question about the real number of skilled people lacking in the country is never considered, if not simply carefuly avoided by all parties (for foul reasons ?).

Best regards.

[Homer Phillips]

Originally posted by EL

The real question to me is : where is the trustful authority which should estimate how many IT pros are really lacking in US, and whether the staff already there is skilled enough ?

You talk about the problems of France. IMO you are looking at this from the wrong view point. Fact: adding imports to the US is highly associated with attempts by a government to tune market or subsidize an industry. Capitalists, dare I say Americans, fundementally don't believe a governmental authority can make a tuning decision or should subsidize an industry. Capitalists and progressive western economic thought believes the market better allocates the right amount of supply of intellectual capital or high skilled labor than does a planning committee.

Let the market work. That's what Bush used to say about petrol.

When the government tries to fine tune, subsidize or otherwise meddle in the economy, the government is just as likely to fuel a technology bubble, or promote irrational exuberance as it is to get it just right or not do enough.

If there's a shortage of labor in the the US, or anywhere, corporations have many options on how to more efficiently deal with the problem than moving the workers about the globe. It's a win-win deal.

OTH, some people advocate things like slavery, indendured servitude and torture.

[Eric Lemaitre]

Hi Homer !

...Capitalists, dare I say Americans, fundementally don't believe a governmental authority can make a tuning decision or should subsidize an industry. Capitalists and progressive western economic thought believes the market better allocates the right amount of supply of intellectual capital or high skilled labor than does a planning committee. Let the market work. That's what Bush used to say about petrol.

This simply can't be true of US gov, which claims for no state funding at all for all others govs but gives gigantic funds to many parts of its own private industry : civil and military planes, crops, steel, to state the most famous ones, which regulary provoke commercial skirmishes between Europe and US for excessive public funding to private industry. All G7/G8 and Davos meetings see great debates about US huge public funds for its private sector each year, as well as WTO (? Worldwide Trade Organization ?) meetings.

Anyway this shouldn't be the matter, as letting or not skilled people in is primary a political matter, very secundary industrial matter for private industry can easily set abroad branches/subsidiaries for hiring the skilled aliens it needs without any administrative issue. So I am totally against your opinion on this one, visa numbers issues are political matter, (almost) not industry matter, so it should be set by the state as an internal political matter.

And if you are sure market is the best regulator, why aren't simply all labour visa caps abolished, so that industry can freely choose as many workers it wants from any country ?

If there's a shortage of labor in the the US, or anywhere, corporations have many options on how to more efficiently deal with the problem than moving the workers about the globe. It's a win-win deal.

Which means offshoring, sending the jobs abroad as present limited visa numbers (industry says) doesn't allow aliens in. Are you sure you can call this a win-win deal from US workers' point of view, considering all the complaints from US workers to jobs lost abroad with offshoring ?

By the way there is an interesting study which states for the 2nd year offshoring was beeficial to US. I would be very interested to read it, so as to check how many US jobs were lost, how many were created, and to whom financial benefits went.

Best regards.

[Luke Kolin]

Originally posted by Homer Phillips:
Let the market work. That's what Bush used to say about petrol.

...

If there's a shortage of labor in the the US, or anywhere, corporations have many options on how to more efficiently deal with the problem than moving the workers about the globe. It's a win-win deal.

It is interesting that you advocate free markets, but then state that they shouldn't be applied to labor. I think a free market in labor continues to work within the United States despite huge disparities in wealth - it has yet to drive New York wages to the level of Mississippi, despite being in operation for two centuries....

Cheers!

Luke

[Homer Phillips]

It is interesting that you advocate free markets, but then state that they shouldn't be applied to labor.

You are comparing apples and oranges. Moving the cheapest workers around the world is not trade. Workers, people, simply are not free to move about the globe in search of employment. People have not been able to cross national borders without government permission for a long, long time.

Immigration or guest workers from another country is adding supply to one market from another. There is a market for IT people in the US and another in the UK. Those are two seperate markets.

Adding IT workers to the US labor pool from about the globe when the market is good is a subsidy to the US IT industry at the expense of the US labor force. Did you notice they don't do much for the workers when the market is bad?

[S Sand]

So what about the second generation immigrants like ABCD's [American Born confused Desi's] why do they get to be lucky. After all their parents came here to clean up MOTELS,GAS STATIONS and write software programs. They should also be kicked out of this country along with all Indians.
[ November 16, 2005: Message edited by: S Sand ]

[Amit Saini]

JavaByChoice Or NotByChoice,
You're talking about something irrelevant here.
The 'ABCD's are born here and are citizens of this country, not immigrant labor.

Why are they lucky you ask? You sound like a disgruntled Indian, btw. Well, their parents took the risk of leaving their family behind and starting a new life in a strange country from scratch. Yours didnt. Thats why they are lucky and you aren't (if having US Citizenship is your definition of being lucky)

And whatever their parents/grandparents did is no concern of yours. You're going to end up offending any American born Indians that we might have on this forum.

According to your logic, whole of USA should be kicked out of USA, since everyones grandparents / great grandparents were immigrants.

LOL

[Jason Cox]

Originally posted by Amit Saini:
According to your logic, whole of USA should be kicked out of USA, since everyones grandparents / great grandparents were immigrants.
LOL

Mine weren't.

At least on one side. So it's not really possible to say where we might have ended up. Your point still stands however, as we are a vast majority of people whose ancestors were immigrants.

Frankly, an American is an American. I don't care if someone is the first generation son of a motel maid. They're just as much a citizen as I am in the eyes of the law.

[Homer Phillips]

why do they get to be lucky?

You mean like they don't have enough money to buy a US college degree? They join they National Guard to earn some college tuition. They get to spend an extended tour of duty guarding the green zone in Baghdad, you mean lucky like that?

[Pavan Tummala]

May be its that simple..US economy needs the software industry to churn out profits..These times are tough, so to make profits it needs cheap (as well as quality) labour...it will, if it has to, depend on imported labor..and the government will tune the supply accordingly so as to keep this industry alive...agree?

[Homer Phillips]

These times are tough, so to make profits it needs cheap (as well as quality) labour...it will, if it has to, depend on imported labor..and the government will tune the supply accordingly so as to keep this industry alive...agree?

No I don't agree. IMO

a) These times are not tough for the global IT industry.

b) Bill Gates is making money hand over fist.

c) Government has no business keeping industies alive. That is corporate welfare. A given market's IT industry may shink while another grows.

d) US government passed the Cost and Competiveness Act of 1999 to drive down the price it pays for software services. If you are a worker in the intellectual property business, this act cuts your wage.

[Mark Herschberg]

"JavaByChoice",

Welcome to JavarRanch.

Please look carefully at official naming policy at Javaranch & reregister yourself with proper first & last name, with a space between them. Obviously fictitious names are not allowed. Please adhere to official naming policy & help maintain the decorum of the forum. The naming policy can be found at http://www.javaranch.com/name.jsp

--Mark

[Eric Lemaitre]

Hi Pavan !

May be its that simple..US economy needs the software industry to churn out profits..These times are tough, so to make profits it needs cheap (as well as quality) labour...it will, if it has to, depend on imported labor..and the government will tune the supply accordingly so as to keep this industry alive...agree?

I totally agree, business forever keeps trying new practices which are abruptly replaced by others so as to try fixing flaws of former ones. Present trend is massive outsourcing/nearshoring so as to reduce costs at maximum but this drives down quality along, among other flaws.

But IMHO government doesn't tune anything, it simply dully tries to satisfy K-street lobies, in this matter both industrials claiming 60,000 more H1B and native US voters claiming no more imported cheap labour, government simply chose to cut the fruit in half hence provinding 30,000 more H1B only. Government simply tries coping between extreme lobies which fund him or vote for/against him, but doesn't try controling anything, or there simply wouldn't be 10 millions illegals on US soil.

Best regards.

[Pavan Tummala]

10 million illegals? I never knew that the number was that big..well then who funds for ignoring this huge number or there are simply not enough funds to track down these illegal immigrants or stop them?
But on H1 visas and a lot of other visas, the government makes good deal of money..Outsourcing is ugly, even uglier is professionals from other countries coming in and competing with locals..But its all in the game..control school dropouts, train professionals, and let them throw a challenge to the H1 .. how about that?

[S Sand]

padre! Amit
I just thought i feed you some fresh fodder, So we are not talking about whole USA [white, black people] , but just H1B holders in this forum. So correct me if i'm wrong this forum is to H1B or not H1B. I see folks here opposing H1B's and some Indian folks wanting it, it's a better life in America, Come on! just admit it. So now if H1B are stopped altogether and no more Green Cards for some reason, and it might you never know, just like Bush decided to invade Iraq. Then you are screwed, you gotta get back to India. But your kids [ABCD's]{who are born here} will get to stay here, is it?... fair trade! If so ......be it. Ahmen, worship the HOLY COW!
[ November 16, 2005: Message edited by: S Sand ]

[Amit Saini]

it's a better life in America, Come on! just admit it.

When did I say its a bad life here? LOL..what do you mean Come on, admit it?? Why would I be here if its not a good life?
America has a good life is known since the time of WW2 immigrants. Why are you telling me the secret now? I've been here for 3 years now (2 as a student)..so far..so good!

So now if H1B are stopped altogether and no more Green Cards for some reason,

Fine with me ! This will directly impact the number of students coming here for higher education. India alone sends 80,000 students every year for Engineering and Medicine related fields. Why would these people spend lakhs of Rupees when they know H1s have been stopped? If you add the Chinese and Koreans, the number is much higher. These students bring in billions of dollars in revenue for the US education centers.

Then you are screwed, you gotta get back to India

So?
I have a home in Bombay...I have family there. I don't even own a house or have a family here! I'm here for the experience, money and independence. Big deal if after a few years I gotta get back home. Atleast I'll have a wealth of experience and good amount of savings to take back with me!! Most H1b's will agree with me.

You make it sound like H1bs go back to India and beg on the streets!!!
lol

BTW, you'll have to wait for a *real* long time to see H1bs/GCs stopped completely. Reducing numbers is one thing and stopping H1bs is another.

Ahmen, worship the HOLY COW!

I'm not sure what you mean by this.
[ November 16, 2005: Message edited by: Amit Saini ]

[Eric Lemaitre]

Hi Pavan !

10 million illegals? I never knew that the number was that big..well then who funds for ignoring this huge number or there are simply not enough funds to track down these illegal immigrants or stop them?

I recommend you Live News from "http://www.bmlaw.com/NewDesign/" which regulary state this, so you will have no doubt.

Dealing with illegal immigration would be extremely easy if whole US was not totally hypocritical about this matter : both K-street industrial lobbies who fund politicians and common low end jobs employers have a very strong interest in having such a very wide pool of very low wages workers available. Fines for employing illegals are ridiculously low (about $ 250) while very low wages allow gigantic profits. As long as K-street industrial lobbies will rule the political system through funding (the one who pays gives the orders) and that US citizens will vote anyway for the very same politicians, the system will continue and no one has to complain.
You will remark that no one in US is worried by illegals' financial exploitation itself but only by the security issues, illegals enter US too easily so terrorists could as well simply by infiltrating them, only this last point is an issue for US Home Department Security.
You will remark too that Bush plans to confirm the present system with the newest "guest workers" program which aims to legitimate temporary low wage workers for 6 years at max, and if possible make the illegals stand out for gaining legal presence (but doomed by advance, illegals can easily remain much more longer than 6 years if they don't show out).
Please note I am not calling anyone names, I am employed in a startup and happy where I am, this is simply my own conclusion built through mounths of immigration news.

But on H1 visas and a lot of other visas, the government makes good deal of money..Outsourcing is ugly, even uglier is professionals from other countries coming in and competing with locals..But its all in the game..control school dropouts, train professionals, and let them throw a challenge to the H1 .. how about that?

When labour visa system is really applied correctly it doesn't harm US workers at all for these skilled aliens devoted jobs are those not taken by US citizens, but the big problem is it is widely abused without any serious attempt by US government to control it. While US unemployment in IT is about 10%, twice national average for a given business, preference is given anyway to aliens with visa cap as single limit. No attempt is made by US employers to train US IT pros then hiring them, direct hiring of cheaper aliens remains prefered choice. Right now business wants to lower costs at practically any price through massive outsourcing and nearshore cheap aliens importation through labour visas, this is very dangerous on average term, but it is present system now. Business will change this trend if quality decreases so much it threatens profits, or if another country takes advantage of present situation to take US place as technological leader, but it could be too late. CIA economic studies clearly state China will be world technological leader before USA by 2030 if nothing changes, this is not for nothing.

Best regards.

[Eric Lemaitre]

Hi Amit !

I have a home in Bombay...I have family there. I don't even own a house or have a family here! I'm here for the experience, money and independence. Big deal if after a few years I gotta get back home. Atleast I'll have a wealth of experience and good amount of savings to take back with me!! Most H1b's will agree with me. You make it sound like H1bs go back to India and beg on the streets!!! lol

Totally agree, but you forgot to state another point on this matter : many brilliant Indians and Chinese on H1B go back home anyway despite US will to build their own company, because a gigantic pool of inexpensive excellent IT pros are available at home, while doing it in USA would be much more expensive, particulary the Chinese thanks to their local "chines sillicon valley" near Beijing.
In clear terms misused H1B allows too some most dangerous US concurrents (mainly China/India) to get perfectly acquainted with US market, then to build their own concurrent alien company for cheap, able to take easily market shares to US as they know it very well and still have many friends still there : US feeds his worst concurrents when they choose to get back home.

Best regards.

[Homer Phillips]

IIRC, if you come to the US annd graduate from a university then you are not on the H1-B program. I think it is F1 visa. Surely some one around here knows how this works.

[Amit Saini]

Homer., what do students do after F1?

F1 -> OPT (Optional Practical Training for 1 year) -> H1B.

[Tim Cerillo]

Originally posted by Homer Phillips:
IIRC, if you come to the US annd graduate from a university then you are not on the H1-B program. I think it is F1 visa. Surely some one around here knows how this works.

The holders of F1 visa are allowed to work at most 20 hours on campus. After graduation, these students seek H1B sponsorship. The government alloted extra 20k H1B exclusively for these type of students.

[S. Palanigounder]

Update on this issue:

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/articleshow/1302016.cms