Endangered Fish Policy May Have Cost Firefighters' Lives

[Anonymous]

i cannot stand phantom posters in threads such as this.

Ya all of you have such important things to say.

I bet your candy ass that you will be praying for those dumb and incompetent fire fighters, to save your sorry asses when your animal-friendly crack house is on fire.

I didn't feel anyone lick me!

[Anonymous]

I should have guessed that the original poster was in the military, and enjoyed it. Hey, tell us another war story - we would enjoy that. (And yes I have been in the military also.)

[Jason Menard]

Originally posted by the truth:
I should have guessed that the original poster was in the military, and enjoyed it. Hey, tell us another war story - we would enjoy that. (And yes I have been in the military also.)

I don't think shopping at the Salvation Army qualifies as being in the military.
J

[Eager Beaver]

Jason,
Excellent!! I appreciate your point of view and find an expression of my own thoughts in most of your posts on the topic.
The way you have responded to some whippersnappers here, inspite of their uncharitable remarks,is highly commendable. I believe these kids are more callow than callous and certainly in need of some direction in life.

[Peter Lyons]

"i was on the "fire party" on my ship for a couple years. our big concern was a fire in the engine spaces... they say the heat gets around 3000f (jason's description takes care of the rest). they also say the first 4 or 5 people on the hose are going to die... i was #3.
after drilling 3 times a week for several months, we thought we were invincible. one day, before our inspection, there was a real "fuel oil leak" in the #1 engine room (that usually leads to a main-space fire). as luck would have it, i was on duty that day. we were dressed and heading down to the space within 2 minutes... fortunately we were able to control the situation before the fire got going.
you should have seen the looks on the rest of the guy's faces when we were getting suited-up... everyone of us were thinking that we might die that day. the only reason i was able to go down that ladder was because i did not want to let my team down, so i put death out of my mind, and did my job.
Mr. Harris, I salute you!
I don't know how I would behave possibly facing death in doing my job (pretty unlikely as a Java developer)...
but you have proven your honor and courage and I sure hold that in high regard.

[Ronnie Johnson]

I have actually been thinking about this post quite a lot. Some people here, (aka Jake the Snake and Adrian) seem to detract from human kind, these are the types of people that make one callous. People like them, that as far as I know can only post inarticulate (sp?) garbage (which means this is most likely how they form ideas) and I hope they understand that what amounts to written primitive grunts does not get your point across well. I have however been thinking about it and while it is the fault of human kind for endangering the fish, I guess I do actually value the lives of the firefighters more. Before people think they have achieved some sort of victory over my thoughts, you must know that my mind did not change due to any post here. I found many of the quite bad actually, because many of them were meant to try to make you feel a certian way, when that should come from something in you, not posts talking about what the two small childern are going to do without their "daddy." Granted this is terribly sad, however this is an obvious ploy to try to make one feel a certian way. So basically what I am saying is that it was sad that the delima had to come about in the first place. The fish should not be endangered, and the fire fighters shoud not have to die. I am sorry for their deaths, and I hope this clears up some of the mounting hostility.

[Jason Menard]

Originally posted by Eager Beaver:
Jason,
Excellent!! I appreciate your point of view and find an expression of my own thoughts in most of your posts on the topic.
The way you have responded to some whippersnappers here, inspite of their uncharitable remarks,is highly commendable. I believe these kids are more callow than callous and certainly in need of some direction in life.

Thanks for your kind words.
J

[Jason Menard]

Originally posted by Ronnie Johnson:
Before people think they have achieved some sort of victory over my thoughts, you must know that my mind did not change due to any post here. I found many of the quite bad actually, because many of them were meant to try to make you feel a certian way, when that should come from something in you, not posts talking about what the two small childern are going to do without their "daddy." Granted this is terribly sad, however this is an obvious ploy to try to make one feel a certian way.

Actually one point of a persuasive argument is to appeal to the emotions, or evoke an emotional response in some way. This is an emotional issue, so a logical argument, one dealing only in facts, wouldn't generally be the approach taken. Regardless, I am grateful for whatever your thought processes were that caused you to re-evaluate your position.
J

[Jason Menard]

To lighten things up...
This somewhat unrelated piece is on The Onion today.

Just A Stay-In-Bed Kind Of Day, Fire
Department Declares
ALBANY, NY-- Citing inclement weather and a
general "blah" feeling among the firefighters,
Albany fire chief Martin Brundle declared Monday
"just a lazy, stay-in-bed kind of day." "We've been
working hard all year," said Brundle, speaking from
his firehouse cot. "Our men deserve a day to just
lie around and watch TV, and maybe order some
pizza in the afternoon." The department's outgoing
answering-machine message advised citizens of
the greater Albany area to "call back tomorrow."

J

[Andy Ceponis]

I like firefighters
I like fish
I like firefighters who slap each other with fish
I like fish who slap each other

[Lance Anderson]

I have a couple relatives in the US Forest Service who have been involved in fire fighting operations off and on for nearly 30 years. One died in a helicopter crash fighting a fire, the others have had close calls. Firefighting is dangerous work whether it�s in the woods or a city.

The recent tragedy points out just one of the challenges involved in fighting these large blazes. Coordination between agencies and the various jurisdictions fighting a fire can be a hair puller I hear. Inevitably �political agendas� can hamper their efforts, sometimes costing both lives and property.


I doubt if even the most rabid environmentalist envisioned that a water use restriction designed to protect a species which it turns out wasn�t even in the lake, would end up contributing to a loss of human life. This is however, a classic example of what happens when political zealots make rules to accomplish one purpose without thinking through the possible ramifications of them. Unfortunately our lawmakers and bureaucrats are great at this sort of thing.

[Paul Stevens]

Just curious Ronnie what is your view on abortion?

[Andy Ceponis]

Oh great another abortion thread.

[Conrad Kirby]

Originally posted by Paul Stevens:
Just curious Ronnie what is your view on abortion?

Just go to the comfort care forum.

[Ronnie Johnson]

Originally posted by Paul Stevens:
Just curious Ronnie what is your view on abortion?

I fail to see the relevance, but I would be labeled pro-choice, although I think adoption is a better alternative, I believe the woman who is bearing the child should make the decision.

[David Weitzman]

This world has a problem. The number of people is growing exponentially, but the amound of land is not increasing exponentially. When there are too many people in the world, should we kill some actively, or just let everyone suffer until a lot of people die (a disease maybe)?

[Ronnie Johnson]

Originally posted by David Garland:
This world has a problem. The number of people is growing exponentially, but the amound of land is not increasing exponentially. When there are too many people in the world, should we kill some actively, or just let everyone suffer until a lot of people die (a disease maybe)?

Very true, just prepared to be shunned.

[Paul Stevens]

Ronnie,
You have stated that animal and human life are equal. I guess unborn babies aren't considered life.

[J Polster]

Now hold on a minute here.

What is this argument all about? Aren't firefighters important? Aren't animals important? Shouldn't we be trying to figure out a way to have the two co-exist without fatality instead of bickering at eachother about who's more important? It's that entire mentality that prevented people in hurricane katrina being rescued, about the 'importance' issue. Mainly, poorer people weren't allowed to escape prior to the hurricane because they'd have to pass through richer territory and they feared looting.

If we want something done right -- we have to buck up and start considering everyone's feelings as a part of the equation. I respect firefighters deeply, and for the record, they're known for rescuing animals more than police officers.

I also respect animal life of any kind, and think this 'survival of the fittest � mankind' stuff is ludicrous. We're not a viable part of nature anymore except for our need of food, in a way, taking it upon ourselves to become almost demigods. The complete irresponsibility and lack of concern for the sorrounding environment won't just kill the environment, animals, plants, but guess what? Humans, too.

It's like people who say global warming isn't important. We all seem to forget the ozone layer keeps in our oxygen. Without oxygen, we all die, regardless how hot it is in our front yard.

Animals exist in a part of an ecosystem that even mankind relies on. I once had a friend tell me 'so what, you think your life is equal to some worm's in the ground?' thinking he was going to get me in my debate that all life is important. Yet the constant tilling of soil and replenishing of nutrients from the worms are what makes plants grow, feeding herbivores, feeding carnivores, and both plants and animals feeding humans. There's no two ways about it, animals are important in individuality and as a systematic whole.

Now, from what I've read of this article, it seems that some people who were trying to protect the forest, and consequently animals, died because of the irony they had to protect too many animals. I think in this kind of devision, that water should be on stand by instead of taking it from lakes. If the states and governments did more to equip these men trying to fight for animal or human life, then they wouldn't have to die.

Maybe it is silly that they died because of an endangered species, one in which, I don't feel has to die (but sheeze you'd think they'd take them to a safer place than the middle of some forest if they were so important? o.o). I think that the even more silly concept is that A) firefighters have to die or go unprepared because in all of mankind's great advancements, they can't think of ways to better equip them in cases like these and would rather leave them to roast and B) the fact we'd blame the government and or state's incompetancy to protect our firefighters on the nearest available scapegoat, endangered fish.

Honestly folks, no one or nothing should have to die. Not animals or people. "people before animals" has to go and vice versa, maybe if we cared more about animals, some people in hurricane katrina wouldn't have died trying to stay behind with their pets. Maybe if we cared more about people, we'd find ways to better co-exist with animals instead of using this same system that's hurt the animals to begin with.

We give them preserves or shelters because we've stolen /so/ much of their land. Instead of stealing land then from people and making things like firefighters dying, why can't people just learn to properly share? The attitude of 'anything above anything' is prejaduice, and astounding we'd still practice and praise it. In the long run, who does it help, if the ones involved in protecting whatever the first 'anything' in my quote dies in trying to do so?

For the record, someone said 'two of the fire fighters were 19 year old girls, does that change your opinion?'. No, it doesn't and it shouldn't. It makes me astounded that they'd send in nearly teenage girls to do such a dangerous task then leave them to die, but they joined not to be thought of as the poor weak girls that need protection -- but to do a job of a man and sadly died alongside them, but atleast they died in courage. I commend them, but blaming the fish isn't gonna bring them back. We need to do more for our firefighters before hand, so they don't need to rely on endangered fish to save their lives. As I last recalled, there's not so many endangered fish anyway ^_~
[ October 20, 2005: Message edited by: J Polster ]

[Jim Yingst]

[J Polster]: Now hold on a minute here.

Ummm... the posters in this thread have been "holding on" for over four years. You're resurrecting a very old thread. This thread comes from a time when we allowed much more controversial discussion in this forum. We don't anymore. Let's not drag up ancient arguments, please.