Somebody here should stop acting as a policeman

[Cindy Glass]

But Indians are all one race and all Indians live in India?

No I didn't say that. I believe I said that some Indics live in Pakistan. Some even live in the USA.
The problem is that the word "Indian" is used BOTH to mean the residents of the country of India, AND the race which is Indian (not to mention the American "Indians"). Therefore it is confusing. Life would be easier if we had a different word for each - like "national Indians" vs "bloodline Indians".

(edited to practice using the word Indic)

[This message has been edited by Cindy Glass (edited August 20, 2001).]

[Shama Khan]

Originally posted by Cindy Glass:
Pakistani's are a nationality - some of whom are caucasion, some of whom are negro, and MOST of whom are Indian.

Did you just call some Pakistanis Indians. Well, in a way you are right. If Taiwanese don't mind being called Chinese

[Cindy Glass]

No Taiwanese are Orientals, so are Chinese. You are confusing the nationality with the race.

[Shama Khan]

Indians are not a race. Indian is term for a national of India.
Calling Indians a race may be an oversimplification on the part of the western people for the western books only but believe me it's not very practical as there are many races in India and the surrounding region. It's amazing how to us, all Africans are only Africans the race but they would definitely disagree.
Now I am beginning to wonder what my race is. I gotta go look up some eastern resources!

[Cindy Glass]

On re-reading the dictionary posting that Thomas put out, the "Race" should be called Indic and the nationality Indian.
So now we need to go back and edit about 40 previous posts in this thread .

[Anonymous]

Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
And how do you know that this particular person was against "your" goals? Because he was Indian. That makes you a bigot. You expressed an opionion not because of the technical skills of this person but because he happened to be a member of an ethnic group that you don't like. Do you also refuse to hire black people because some black people want reparations for slavery?

Tsk-Tsk. I never said I did not like the person. I never said I did not like Indians. What I did say is that I cannot trust a person who is attacking my way of life.
Are you comparing reparations for SLAVERY with FRENCH FRIES?!! That is why I think this lawsuit will be successful, because people like you are suckers. You do and will associate the act of eating French fries with slavery.

[Anonymous]

Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
So you told your boss that he shouldn't hire that person because some Hindis are suing McDonalds? Or did you lie to him?

No, I told him I liked two of the other candidates. I did not lie to him. I liked them and I am sure they will make excellent employees.

[Anonymous]

Originally posted by Mapraputa Is:
Jacob, we all here are spending our time trying to figure out by WHAT you discriminated that poor guy. First you said that he was Hindu, then it turned out that you did not know if he was Hindu or not...

Mapraputa Is,
I did not say that he was a Hindu I said he was an Indian. Unfortunately Thomas Paul deleted my post to protect himself so others here cannot see that you are wrong. Please do not misquote me. If you feel you have to lie to make a point then say so and we can just agree to disagree.

I really cannot understand why you refuse to be called a racist. At least, they have rational explanations for their actions.

Whatever your pro-racist feelings are I am disagreeing with the incorrect use of the word. People incorrectly brand people racists all the time. It is a popular buzzword designed to get a pre-programmed reaction from the audience. Unfortunately most people do not use it correctly either by choice or just sheer ignorance. The population of India is not one race, nor are all ethnic Indians in India.

I am starting to think that it was not Thomas who felt he looked too foolish and could not take the responsibility for his own actions�

Of course Thomas has deleted his post, I have not deleted mine��

[Anonymous]

Originally posted by Cindy Glass:
No I didn't say that. I believe I said that some Indics live in Pakistan. Some even live in the USA.
The problem is that the word "Indian" is used BOTH to mean the residents of the country of India, AND the race which is Indian (not to mention the American "Indians"). Therefore it is confusing. Life would be easier if we had a different word for each - like "national Indians" vs "bloodline Indians".

(edited to practice using the word Indic)

[This message has been edited by Cindy Glass (edited August 20, 2001).]

So you admit that you are wrong?

[Anonymous]

Originally posted by Cindy Glass:
No Taiwanese are Orientals, so are Chinese. You are confusing the nationality with the race.

As are you....

[Anonymous]

Originally posted by Cindy Glass:
On re-reading the dictionary posting that Thomas put out, the "Race" should be called Indic and the nationality Indian.
So now we need to go back and edit about 40 previous posts in this thread .

You could just delete the entire thread like Thomas...

[Mapraputa Is]

I did not say that he was a Hindu I said he was an Indian.
You did say he was Hindu.
Unfortunately Thomas Paul deleted my post to protect himself so others here cannot see that you are wrong.
You already were told that Thomas CANNOT delete any post in this forum besides his own. Ok, let's say it one more time: your post was not deleted, it was moved in "moderators only" forum, where all bartenders and sheriffs can enjoy it. That's why I know that in your first post (posted August 20, 2001 07:47 AM) you said that the guy was Hindu.
Please do not misquote me.
I did not.
If you feel you have to lie to make a point then say so and we can just agree to disagree.
Well, now you know that I do not have to lie to make a point You also know that your post exists, so it can be proved.
By the way, now, when you know that Thomas did not delete your post, how about apologies to him?

[Andy Ceponis]

I sometimes think about getting naked and wandering the streets of the town i live in. How about you?

[Anonymous]

Originally posted by Mapraputa Is:
You did say he was Hindu.

Well it would be simple to check, but Thomas deleted my post.

You already were told that Thomas CANNOT delete any post in this forum besides his own. Ok, let's say it one more time: your post was not deleted, it was moved in "moderators only" forum, where all bartenders and sheriffs can enjoy it. That's why I know that in your first post (posted August 20, 2001 07:47 AM) you said that the guy was Hindu.

Well I do not know how much you know about computers but he moved it thus changing the pointer to a place I cannot, nor I assume the majority of people here, cannot view. He effectively deleted the file.

I did not.

Well unfortunately people here cannot see what I said. There is a reason for that. If not this thread also have been deleted.

Well, now you know that I do not have to lie to make a point You also know that your post exists, so it can be proved.

I do not know what you are saying is the truth. I know the post �exists� in some form but what that form is I am not sure of.

By the way, now, when you know that Thomas did not delete your post, how about apologies to him?

As I have explained, he moved the pointer to a place that it cannot be viewed effectively deleting it. If I delete a file it goes to the �Trash�, it still exists in the trash but I have �deleted� it.
If you need anymore rudimentary computer knowledge just ask. This board is full of interesting and intelligent people!

[Lance Finney]

Jacob refuses to use logic. He ignores points that are uncomfortable for him. He attacks people personally. He claims the high road by whining about being persecuted when he's willing to deny someone a job. He parses posts for tiny points to avoid the message.
These are all the characteristics of a troll.
He's either a bigot (who cares what particular version - we don't need to know for sure) or flame-bait. Either way, he's a troll and should be ignored.

[Sahir Shibley]

Is all this ruckus about a missing pointer? Now dont make a fuss Jacob. I will buy you another one

[Bunny Girl]

Hey Andy! When you go wandering the streets naked in your town, just give me a call, Baby!

[Manku Thimma]

Is this one of those sleepless nights, Sahir? It should be around 2AM where you are

[Mapraputa Is]

Originally posted by Jacob�Golden:
As I have explained, he moved the pointer to a place that it cannot be viewed effectively deleting it. If I delete a file it goes to the "Trash", it still exists in the trash but I have "deleted" it.

Jacob, your explanations would (perhaps) make sense, if it were Thomas who moved (=deleted) your post. But it was not Thomas. Another moderator did it, as s/he said it in "moderators only" forum.
The difference between moving threads, and deleting them is that if the thread was moved, it can be always moved back "as is". If the thread was deleted, it cannot be restored. It doesn't "still exists in the trash".
If you need anymore rudimentary computer knowledge just ask. This board is full of interesting and intelligent people!
If you need anymore rudimentary politeness, just ask. Maybe you can find some volunteers to teach you.

[Manku Thimma]

>Either way, he's a troll and should be ignored.
Well said. This is not the first time this fellow has been in trouble for bigotry/xenophobia. His comments had to be deleted/severely edited by the moderators in the original McDonalds suit discussion.
I think it all boils down to political correctness - Javaranch supports it, and opinions that reek of prejudice are NOT welcome - there are plenty of other places where you can tell the world what you think, without fear of any moderators (usually there are none), so why not go there?

[Jim Yingst]

This whole discussion about the distinction between racism, nationalism, religious bigotry and other unsavory practices is amazingly irrelevant to Jacob's original posts. Bigotry is bigotry, regardless of what it's called. Let's pretend for a moment that the people suing McDonalds are evil and must be stopped. (Gee, I'm trembling in fear - my way of life is threatened.) Jacob, do you have any reason to think that this particular person was involved in that lawsuit? Other than that he was Indian / Hindu / whatever, rather than a "real American" like you? Evidently not - and such an attitude is moraly repugnant, whatever you call it.
For what it's worth, Thomas did not remove your post, nor did I - but that's only because someone else got to it first. If I hade been awake earlier, I would gladly have removed it, so feel free to blame me. I'll try to endure the shame.
[This message has been edited by Jim Yingst (edited August 20, 2001).]

[Anonymous]

Originally posted by Jim Yingst:
This whole discussion about the distinction between racism, nationalism, religious bigotry and other unsavory practices is amazingly irrelevant to Jacob's original posts.

I do not think so. They misused an overused word out of sheer laziness and ignorance. It is a keyword that denotes the person to whom you are referring to is �evil�. It was used incorrectly here as in most other instances it is used and I have attempted to point this out.

Bigotry is bigotry, regardless of what it's called. Let's pretend for a moment that the people suing McDonalds are evil and must be stopped.

Well I do not want to stop them. I just want to send them back to their room until they learn to behave.

(Gee, I'm trembling in fear - my way of life is threatened.)

Yes, it is OK for people to commit wrongs to other people as long as it doesn�t affect you. Yea, I�ve heard this before.

Jacob, do you have any reason to think that this particular person was involved in that lawsuit?

He was from India and I assume may now be on his way back to India. The lawsuit is a class action lawsuit and represents ALL Hindu�s as far as I know. It is morally repugnant. If a man got out of prison for molesting children I would not want him as my neighbor even though he served his time and I have no reason to believe he may molest/rape my daughter.

Other than that he was Indian / Hindu / whatever, rather than a "real American" like you? Evidently not - and such an attitude is moraly repugnant, whatever you call it.

Don�t be surprised when the snake bites you.

For what it's worth, Thomas did not remove your post, nor did I - but that's only because someone else got to it first. If I hade been awake earlier, I would gladly have removed it, so feel free to blame me. I'll try to endure the shame.
[This message has been edited by Jim Yingst (edited August 20, 2001).]

If what I did was so morally repugnant why remove it? Let other people draw their own conclusions about me.

[Mapraputa Is]

Regarding the Bartender who posted a response, then felt he looked too foolish (because Jacob's response made him look a little less than intelligent ). Everything was (but this is only between us! ) um... the other way around. So the Bartender had absolutely no personal reason to delete Jacob's post. But we will not tell anybody. Let's pretend he did it, much more fun, huh?
[This message has been edited by Mapraputa Is (edited August 20, 2001).]

[Sahir Shibley]

Jacob Golden,
You speak of suing McDonalds and molesting children in the same breath. If you are trying to equate the two aren't you beginning to look faintly ridiculous. And just because some Indian (or Indic ) sued McDonalds you want to boot out all Indians working in the US ? If everyone thought like you the world economy will grind to a halt. Has it ever occured to you that it is necessary for the well being of the world economy for people from country A to work in country in B and people from country B to work in country A , then for some of them move to country C etc etc. If you know someone who has been to school ask them and they may be able to tell you it is called "mobility of labour" and is supposed to be a good thing for the economy. Do you think that there aren't any Americans working in India ? They are there because the Indian economy requires their presence, the same rule applies to the Indians in the US. Do not think anybody is doing anybody a favour. When their presence is no longer required they will go. If any of them decide to settle down there and accept American citizenship they become Americans just like all the other people from all the other countries who came to make America their home (this includes the people who came on the Mayflower). Of course any problems you have with Americans of a different ethnic origin from your own is purely a domestic issue. But if I catch you messing with someone who holds an Indian passport, I will despatch a missile from here and nuke your loo while you are taking a crap. The neighbours arent going to be happy because the entire neighbourhood is going to be full of shit.

Cheers
Sahir
PS. And what is an illiterate f*****r like you doing in a techie forum. Shoudnt you be out there hauling garbage or something ?

[This message has been edited by Sahir Shibley (edited August 21, 2001).]

[Angela Poynton]

Jacob FYI I moved the origional thread to moderators only I havn't commented here since because I have a life and was happily enjoying the company of my friends (incidently of many nationalities) while this silly little conversation was raging!
I moved the thread for the following reason:
You showed blatent hatred for a large number of visitors to this site. This is not the best place to vent your personal feelings on this issue, I along with the other moderators at Javaranch will always do everything we can to remove such blatently offensive intentionally provocotive posts.
You are of course entitled to your opinion no matter how much it shows your ignorance but this is a moderated forum and we will use our discretion.
I actually moved the thread to Moderators Only because I wanted the opinions of the other moderators as to whether or not it was appropriate to this forum. if they had thought it was I would have happily moved it back. Unfortunatly a lot of them also shared my concerns and so in Moderators Only it will stay!

[Anonymous]

Originally posted by Sahir Shibley:
Jacob Golden,
You speak of suing McDonalds and molesting children in the same breath. If you are trying to equate the two aren't you beginning to look faintly ridiculous.

I find class action lawsuits are usually as morally repugnant. Big Tobacco, perfectly legal here, being sued because some people got cancer after receiving over thirty years of warnings that the product is not safe. If you bring it on yourself like in the Hindu�s who went to McDonalds good. You should be hailed as an example, not a hero.

And just because some Indian (or Indic ) sued McDonalds you want to boot out all Indians working in the US ?

No, my dream situation would be for a Hindu movement criticizing this lawyer who speaks on behalf of all Hindu�s. But that will not happen. Hindu�s could get money from this after all. You all speak of what is morally right but refuse to do what is morally right most of the time.

If everyone thought like you the world economy will grind to a halt. Has it ever occured to you that it is necessary for the well being of the world economy for people from country A to work in country in B and people from country B to work in country A , then for some of them move to country C etc etc.

Has it occurred to you that if I went to India that I would have a moral obligation to make sure the food I was eating was Kosher and not just walk into your biggest fast food chain and ignorantly assume it is Kosher for me? That I should not try to extort Indian businesses using racism as a weapon? I am not even sure how far something like that would go in India.

If you know someone who has been to school ask them and they may be able to tell you it is called "mobility of labour" and is supposed to be a good thing for the economy.

It should be. But it seems some Hindu�s would rather take the fast road than work for their gains.

Do you think that there aren't any Americans working in India ? They are there because the Indian economy requires their presence, the same rule applies to the Indians in the US. Do not think anybody is doing anybody a favour.

Are Americans over there suing Indian corporations because they did ignorant things?

When their presence is no longer required they will go. If any of them decide to settle down there and accept American citizenship they become Americans just like all the other people from all the other countries who came to make America their home (this includes the people who came on the Mayflower). Of course any problems you have with Americans of a different ethnic origin from your own is purely a domestic issue.

I do not have a problem with Americans of a different ethnic origin as long as they do not try to get SPECIAL rights. When my great grand parents arrived in America they did not sue restaurants because they were not kosher. They made their own kosher restaurants. The problem is not necessarily with the Hindu�s it is with the system but Hindu�s are taking advantage of it and doing it in a racist way.

But if I catch you messing with someone who holds an Indian passport, I will despatch a missile from here and nuke your loo while you are taking a crap. The neighbours arent going to be happy because the entire neighbourhood is going to be full of shit.

*Yawn*

Cheers
Sahir
PS. And what is an illiterate f*****r like you doing in a techie forum. Shoudnt you be out there hauling garbage or something ?

[This message has been edited by Sahir Shibley (edited August 21, 2001).]

Yes, anyone who thinks differently than you is hauling garbage��.

[Angela Poynton]

Ermm Jacob, I think you owe Thomas an apology!

[Anonymous]

Originally posted by Angela Poynton:
Jacob FYI I moved the origional thread to moderators only I havn't commented here since because I have a life and was happily enjoying the company of my friends (incidently of many nationalities) while this silly little conversation was raging!

Yes you are very important and have friends of many nationalities and thus are cosmopolitan and could not possibly be prejudiced. Now that we have established that we can move along.

I moved the thread for the following reason:
You showed blatent hatred for a large number of visitors to this site. This is not the best place to vent your personal feelings on this issue, I along with the other moderators at Javaranch will always do everything we can to remove such blatently offensive intentionally provocotive posts.

First off I do not �hate� anyone on this site. Secondly you do not know what my intentions were.

You are of course entitled to your opinion no matter how much it shows your ignorance but this is a moderated forum and we will use our discretion.

Thankfully my actions were beyond the scope of this board. I was just letting people know that there are reactions to the type of silliness that is perpetrated in the court system.

I actually moved the thread to Moderators Only because I wanted the opinions of the other moderators as to whether or not it was appropriate to this forum. if they had thought it was I would have happily moved it back. Unfortunatly a lot of them also shared my concerns and so in Moderators Only it will stay!

Well I guess I owe Thomas an apology. I assumed it was him since he responded to it and did not delete(move) it when he had the chance. Well I guess you are beyond reproach because you have �friends (incidently of many nationalities)� which seems to be the bulletproof shield.
TTFN

[Anonymous]

Originally posted by Angela Poynton:
Ermm Jacob, I think you owe Thomas an apology!

Ermm Angela, I think you did give Thomas an apology!

[Angela Poynton]

Oh dear ... you really just can't stop acting like a spoiled child can you!
Look, the fact is this, your origional post was inappropriate for this forum and I took the action that is in my power to take. I acted in the most democratic way I could by offering the opportunity for another moderator to say "Well you know it ain't so bad" but they didn't, in fact a good few of them supported my actions.
Secondly, my comment about friends of many nationalities was not meant to stress my importance or popularity, but merely the fact that I consider myself a fairly open-minded individual and also to explain that I hadn't been hiding from this conversation but wasn't actually aware it was going on.
If I had been aware i would have gotton bored with it pretty quickly anyway, nitpicking is no form of discussion as far as I'm concerned.
Maybe you don't hate anyone but your post could certainly very easily be interpreted that way which is why I removed it. Sometimes we post something and the real meaning is lost because with the written word we can't hear a tone of voice or see a facial expression. If you don't want people to think something about you think very carefully about how you write things.
What I really can't understand is how you can have the attitude you have. The fact is you live in the USA. You keep spouting on about Freedom, well what about the freedom of the Hindu lawyer to voice his grievence? Whether he wins or loses it will be according to your laws and so where's the problem? Also can you answer me this?
How is your attitude any different to that of the Nazi's who wanted to rid Europe of Jewish people? I personally find a very worrying similarity (even more worrying because I think I can assume from some comments you have made that you are Jewish).
The Hindu lawyer is using his right to use the law, as far as I can see his right to do this is legitimate or it would never have gotten this far anyway.
Let's just try to chill out a little and get along eh! After all this is only Meaningless Drivel and in the Friendly place for Java Greenhorns.

[Dave Vick]

Wow!! the things I miss when I go on vacation..

Originally posted by Jacob�Golden:
What I did say is that I cannot trust a person who is attacking my way of life.

That has got to be the most absurd thing I've thing (well, one of them anyway). You claim that someone is attacking your way of life because they are suing McDonalds??!!! Ohh my, wait... sorry... can't breath... laughing too hard....
OK...
I'm better...
Sorry about that,
First off the right to sue someone for some perceived wrong is a right given in this country, I would think that not using it or trying to stop someone from exercising it would be a better case of an attack on your way of life. There is a guy who sits in the same cubicle as I do, and beleive it or not we didn't vote for the same man to be president. now that all is said he still makes negative comments about my choice. I think I'll go to my boss and have him fired for attacking my way of life. Oh wait.. he is exercising his right of free speech?? Well those people are exercising their right to sue.
Second, to agree with a few others here, all dictionary definitions aside, you sound like a racist, or a bigot, or a hypocrit or whatever name you want to put on it. Trying to say that you're not because you based your decision on some law suite is just means that in addtion to everything else you're lying to yourself. Now you're going to answer and say that you really do have some Indian, black, or oriental friends and that you're not a racist or anything like that. Bull!! You probably know some of those people, but I would bet that they can also see through you (even if you can't yourself).
Just my opinion

Dave

..... McDonalds ... way of life.... ohh god that's great... haaa

[omar khan]

May I suggest the thread the word "communalism" that denotes excessive devotion to one's own community (i.e. a group of persons having the same religion, race, occupation, tastes ...)?
By the way I personally think that selecting employees on "communal" criteria is not an advantage for the company but ultimately reduces its value.
Omar Khan

[Ling Wu]

Originally posted by Cindy Glass:
No Taiwanese are Orientals, so are Chinese. You are confusing the nationality with the race.

I have been reading all the postings so far and keeping seeing the words "race" and "nationality". Yet I haven't seen, or remember seeing, the word "ethnicity" being mentioned. First of all, people living in Taiwan and Mainland China are all Chinese. They are orientals, so are Japanese and Koreans. Chinese, Koreans, and Japanese are of the same race -- Asian-- but not of the same ethnicity. Nationality is a political and geographical description of a group of people. If your nationality is Chinese, then you must be a citizen of China but not necessarily be a Chinese ethnically. Even within China, there are a large number of ethnic groups whose nationality is Chinese but their ethnicities can be Mongolian, Korean, etc......
There are also Caucations in China who are citizens of that country. Therefore their nationality will be Chinese. However, their race is still Caucation and their ethnicity could be French, German, or Swidish, etc......
Sorry, I know I'm getting off the track here. Can't help it. Have to clear the air for myself.

[This message has been edited by Ling Wu (edited August 21, 2001).]

[Thomas Paul]

Originally posted by Dave Vick:
Wow!! the things I miss when I go on vacation..
That has got to be the most absurd thing I've thing (well, one of them anyway). You claim that someone is attacking your way of life because they are suing McDonalds??!!! Ohh my, wait... sorry... can't breath... laughing too hard....

Actually it's even better than that. He isn't claiming that the guy is involved in the lawsuit. He is claiming that the guy happens to come from the same country as someone involved in the lawsuit. So I am refusing to hire any Americans because some Americans are suing Philip Morris.

[Thomas Paul]

I decided to look up the lawsuit. Here is the deal. For the last 10 years, McDonalds has claimed that their french fries are made with 100% vegetable oil. They lied. They used ingredients derived from beef and then deceived the public. So this lawsuit is about deception and McDonalds should be sued.

On Tuesday, May 1, 2001, Seattle based attorney Harish Bharti filed a class-action lawsuit against McDonald�s Corporation on behalf of Hindu and non-Hindu vegetarians, charging that McDonald�s has been deceiving customers regarding the ingredients of their french fries. Although, McDonald�s has been claiming since 1990 that their fries are cooked in 100% vegetable oil, thus recommended for �vegetarians,� their list of ingredients includes �natural flavor,� which is actually extracted from beef fat. McDonald�s has now admitted their use of beef flavoring within an apology statement recently issued by the company. If you are a vegetarian and have purchased McDonald�s fries within the last 11 years believing them to contain no animal ingredients based on the deceptive media campaign by McDonald�s, you may be eligible to participate in this class-action lawsuit. Please complete, sign and mail your declaration directly to Mr. Bharti. For more information about this class action lawsuit, please go to www.hbharti.com .

[Thomas Paul]

Notice that the class action suit actually covers anyone who is a vegetarian so I guess Angela won't be getting a job at Jacob Golden's company.

[Angela Poynton]

Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
Notice that the class action suit actually covers anyone who is a vegetarian so I guess Angela won't be getting a job at Jacob Golden's company.

ooh Lucky escape I think!

[Cindy Glass]

There are also Caucations in China who are citizens of that country. Therefore their nationality will be Chinese. However, their race is still Caucation and their ethnicity could be French, German, or Swidish, etc......

Yeah . . . < I get SO confused > .
Well, no matter if it is a religious problem with Hindus (as Jacob said in his original post), or a National problem with Indians (as he latter claimed), or an Race problem with Indics, or a life-style problem with vegetarians, or an ethnic problem with . . . anyone vaguely "of some origin who might not like McDonalds", or a citizenship problem with non-America born folks or whatever. When any of the above considerations is used to determine someones fitness for employment - it is wrong. If anyone even remotely involved in the hiring process (such as giving recommendations) was doing this, then it is illegal.
I think Jacob owes Thomas an apology also. Multiple times he was strongly accused of something that he did NOT do.

[David Weitzman]

Has anyone here noticed the alarminly high percentage of asian descended/born people working at chinese resteraunts? They probably do it for some sort of tax benifit. There's just something fishy about it.

[Cindy Glass]

I think that it is called nepotism.