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Shrink it americans

 
Wanderer
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I don't have a copy myself, unfortunately, but if Map want's to post it, that's fine with me. I don't know how "brilliant" my post was - Map's just trying to butter me up to get me off-guard before her next assault, I'm sure. As I recall Michael did also confirm (in another lost post) that he was not linking India or Ram Ram with terrorists.
[This message has been edited by Jim Yingst (edited October 09, 2001).]
 
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posted October 07, 2001 12:46 PM
Hmmm... I'm trying to make sense of some of the misunderstandings in this thread. Did Ram Ram ask for an apology of some sort? The closest I can find to this are these excerpts from his first post:
> Is there any such thing as to learn from past mistakes in your
> democratic nation? I think first step is to admit that you
> made mistakes
> I did not see a single post from an american ready to admit
> these mistakes.
Now to my mind, admitting mistakes != apology. More importantly there seems to be a misunderstanding over who to admit these mistakes to or apologize to. For Michael's post:
> But you are apparently frustrated because no American has
> stepped forward to apologize? Apologize? For what? Causing
> these attacks to happen? " We're sorry we made you kill our
> own people, including several hundred foreign nationals who
> were also in those buildings?" Is that what you need to hear
> for you to heal?
It appears to me that Michael thinks that Ram Ram is expecting an apology to the terrorists. Which would be pretty idiotic to expect, and Ram Ram has subsequently indicated this is not what he meant. There is further confusion over the two uses of "you" in Michael's paragraph. The "you" in "you kill our own people" must refer to the terrorists - this is a hypothetical apology to them. The "you" in "you need to hear" must refer to Ram Ram. I don't think that Micheal intends to equate these two, since that would be pretty foolish. Note that the quotation marks in Michael's statement above put the hypothitical apology in a different context than the rest of the paragraph - "you" inside the quotes is not necessarily the same as "you" outside the quotes. But it's far from clear, and now Ram Ram thinks he's being identified as a terrorist. And Sahir, who believes (probably correctly) that Ram Ram is a fellow Indian, is now thinking that Michael meant to identify all Indians as terrorists. Which of course is absurd.
Now what I can't figure out is why anyone thinks Ram Ram is Russian? That one seems completely out of the blue to me. But of course it would help if Ram Ram simply said clearly where he was from - this is one of the difficulties dealing with unregistered and pseudo-anonymous folks. People make guesses as to who they are, where they're from, etc., and then the unregistered poster gets bent out of shape when incorrect assumptions are made. It would be trivially easy to register as "Ram Ram", from India or wherever. We'd all have a bit more context for understanding your statements. And then you'd also protect yourself against the possibility of someone else posting as "Ram Ram" - one reason many of us view unregistered posters with suspicion is that we never really know if we're dealing with the same person twice in a row. Just a thought...
 
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Ok, Jim, it was the best I could do...

Originally posted by Jim Yingst:
I don't know how "brilliant" my post was - Map's just trying to butter me up to get me off-guard before her next assault, I'm sure.


"her next assault"? Have I ever... No, I resolutely do not understand what you are talking about. As for your "brilliant" post, I thought as your publisher I am supposed to honestly inform our potential audience what they are about to read
[This message has been edited by Mapraputa Is (edited October 09, 2001).]
 
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: Originally posted by Jason Menard
Unless I am misinterpreting this, which is altogether possible, it seems like you may be a bit on the hypocritical side regarding your obvious hatred towards us. It seems that you worked here, and it looks like you may have even gone to school here. If I am correct, and as I said I may not be, then you felt the need to leave your own country in order to seek employment and education in the US. So we educated you and employed you but now you suddenly have issues with the US. Did something cause the termination of your employment here and that is why you are bitter? Or, and I hope not, are you still working here? If you were really all that concerned for your country you would have stayed there to begin with, and not given in to the alure of quick cash and good education to come over here. But as I said, I may simply be drawing the wrong conclusion from your post. I'm sure you will correct me where I am mistaken.


You are jumping to conclusions here. Just because he posted a message criticising US foreign policy does not mean he hates America. I had mentioned this in an earlier message (which was lost) . The average Indian neither hates nor loves America. As far as he is concerned America is just another country. Indians are generally fond of discussing politics , they are just as likely to have an opinionated view on political issues in foreign countries as much as local politics . For example it quite possible two Indians discussing politics in a cafeteria start calling each other a jackass on issues such as Britain's adoption the Euro or Mexico's foreign debt. This has nothing to do with love or hate.
Neither the Indians in India nor the ones working in the US, owe any country a debt of gratitude. For the last time let's get this cleared up. The Indians in the US have gone there to work and they get paid for it. This is purely a business transaction between a buyer and a seller . Why are you dragging obligation or hatred into this ? How would an American working in India feel if I told him " hey you left your country and came here to seek a better ife" . This statement is only applicable to immigrants. That means, Americans can say it to Americans. It doesn't make sense to say the same thing to a foreigner. I know it may be difficult for the descendants of immigrants to grasp this concept. But try your best anyway .
Some of you who have this "frog in the well" attitude may dispute the fact there are American's working in India. This is for them.
Perhaps you will admit that companies such as Pepsi , McDonadls , IBM , Microsoft etc from your great country have spread their operations as far afield as India ?
OK ?
So far so good.
Now follow the reasoning carefully. Obviously you cannot trust the running of these companies to fakirs , snake charmers , tigers and camels ?
So what do you need ?
You need Americans [ well done ] .
Now what is the American doing in India ?
Yes. [ You are a clever boy. Didn't I say so. You just lacked self confidence ]
He is working there !
See how easy it is, once you get the hang of it.
And a note about spelling.
I spell civilisation as "civilisation" and colour as "colour" and programme as "programme" and initialise as "initialise" . That does not mean I dont know how to spell. It just means you have had a sheltered upbringing .

[This message has been edited by Sahir Shibley (edited October 09, 2001).]
 
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Way to go, sahir !!
I think u have done a great job in conveying some of the things that people like me have been thinking of for a long time.
( "frog in the well" , but then you cannot blame them, it's not their mistake, looks like media shields them from anything that is outside US borders. I saw a reporter from one of the leading American newspapers saying on CNN the other day - "We have been ready with the article on 'Why a section of the world hates USA' for some time now, but we think that Americans are not yet ready for this kind of self-criticism as yet" !!! )
 
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Perhaps you will admit that companies such as Pepsi , McDonadls , IBM , Microsoft etc from your great country have spread their operations as far afield as India ?
OK ?
So far so good.
Now follow the reasoning carefully. Obviously you cannot trust the running of these companies to fakirs , snake charmers , tigers and camels ?
So what do you need ?
You need Americans [ well done ] .
Now what is the American doing in India ?
Yes. [ You are a clever boy. Didn't I say so. You just lacked self confidence ]
He is working there !
See how easy it is, once you get the hang of it.


That is totally different from what jason was referring to. American companies branch out globally because they want to make more money. How many Indian companies expand to America? I know that i havent seen any. Dont use random facts and twist them around to try and fit them into your point of view.
 
Sheriff
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Sahir,
First off, I was directing my comments soully at Ram Ram. They were in direct response to the following, although I probably should have just responded in that thread:


Ram Ram spewed the following in another thread
My theory is this is attributed to the fact that most of them came here for quick money and are kind of people who
are ready to leave their home land for personal gain. So there is higher chance that they will cheat. ie You may find
40% cheats among indians in america if the percentage is 20 cheats in 100 among americans.
But please do not consider indians in america as representative of indians.
Same goes for original post ... 35% in NASA does not represent avg indian IQ or education. This is only because in
most cases only highly educated get visa to come here. So do not brag too much about it. In fact if the percentages
are really so high it is something to be ashamed about. Because it means that we already have skills to make our
own Microsoft, IBM in india ... and I am sure VC's will give you money for that. But I guess these 30% or whatever
IBMites indians dont give shit to india or they do not love their country enough. So please do not brag about it.


posted by Sahir Shibley:
You are jumping to conclusions here. Just because he posted a message criticising US foreign policy does not mean
he hates America.


I don't think I'm jumping to conclusions. He seems to be filled with a dislike for many people. Americans, the British, Pakistanis, and probably many more that just haven't happened to come up yet. The following statements he has made show how much that race and country of origin are on his mind, as well as his disdain for Americans and others.


Link to original thread
TO GIVE YOU "WHITE" EXAMPLE.
DID YOU READ HISTORY OF EUROPIAN COUNTRIES? YOUR BELOVED FRANCE? ITALY?
GERMANY?
TO GIVE YOU BLACK EXAMPLE DID YOU READ HISORY OF SOUTH AFRICA?
BROWN: INDIA
RED: CUBA. DID YOU READ ABOUT CHE? HOW CAN YOU IT MUST BE BANNED IN FREE WORLD.
Link to original thread
I dont know why brits have separate flag.
Don't americans have a place for an extra star on their flag?
Link to original thread
Now, I get to see a good example of so much bragged about American Freedom of Speech:
Link to original thread
I do remember few americans caught while sneaking in to china with their plane. It was real fun watching you
guys beg chinese to return these people. So china is one country suffering from american trying to sneak in.
May be you shuld have attacked china then with help of pakistani dictator.
ohh no but china is communist. So you will also need to take osama bin laden's help to beat it. He is your old
friend in war against communism. He is expert in that field.
Think of it. America, Musharraf and Osama fighting holy war for freedom and peace and liberty and justice
(ultimate of course)... just fill in the psudo values that you talk so much about all the time.
God bless America! and its ignorant people.

Link to original thread
You are just a big talk using words democracy and freedom. You already sold your values for short term gain in cold
war.
Welcome to the group of countries affected by terrorism.
Even today both love pakistan
Another reason to have so much antipathy against US


There are others but these are just some highlights. Follow the links to the original threads if you need to see the entire context. It is very clear what he thinks of us.
Just like Americans who have antipathy towards a foreign country they might be living in are not wanted in that country, people who have an antipathy towards us are not wanted in this country. If you want to buy into our way of life, more power to you, welcome aboard. If not, then you are being extremely hypocritical because you are only allowed this opportunity to prosper because of our way of life and our values. But this is definitely not the place for that discussion and I would rather not get into it. I am only addressing your response and Ram Ram's actions.
As for your cute little diatribe about Americans working overseas, we are very much aware of that. Usually, but definitely not always, in American companies. I don't think we have too many programmers going to India, to work in Indian companies, in jobs that should be filled by Indians, but I may be mistaken.

And a note about spelling.
I spell civilisation as "civilisation" and colour as "colour" and programme as "programme" and initialise as "initialise"
. That does not mean I dont know how to spell.


Once again, I have never made any comments about anyone's spelling.
[This message has been edited by Jason Menard (edited October 09, 2001).]
 
Jason Menard
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Originally posted by soumya ravindranath:
Way to go, sahir !!
I think u have done a great job in conveying some of the things that people like me have been thinking of for a long time.
( "frog in the well" , but then you cannot blame them, it's not their mistake, looks like media shields them from anything that is outside US borders. I saw a reporter from one of the leading American newspapers saying on CNN the other day - "We have been ready with the article on 'Why a section of the world hates USA' for some time now, but we think that Americans are not yet ready for this kind of self-criticism as yet" !!! )


You want to talk about American arrogance? I think you, Sahir, Ram Ram, and many others have shown us that Americans are not the only ones who have this problem.
I am sick and tired of hearing this constant myth that the poor Americans are so sheltered, they know nothing about the world, but those of us from [insert country of your choice] are just so worldly. Come down off your high horses. Speaking only for myself, since I can't speak for anyone else, I have lived in five foreign countries (in Europe, the Middle East, and the Far East), and visited countless others. I do not claim to be an expert on the way the world works, but I hardly think I am sheltered. So you all just need to get over your bad selves. <-- obligitory smilie to show I'm not just being an @#$#hole, isn't that why we have been using those lately?
As for self-criticism, we don't have much problem with criticizing ourselves. The problem comes when people are simply lining up to take their shot. And while you are all busy criticizing us, some of you have been acting like your own country is so enlightened and morally superior, but that just ain't the way it is. Every country in the world has issues, including your own.
 
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Originally posted by Andy Ceponis:
How many Indian companies expand to America? I know that i havent seen any.


fyi,
In the field of software and services Indian software companies have strong presence in US markets .last year India exported US$ 6.2 billion worth of software out of which Almost 62 percent of exports were to North America . please see http://www.nasscom.org/it_industry/it_industry_home.asp for further details .
thanks
 
Jason Menard
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Originally posted by Kripal Singh:
fyi,
In the field of software and services Indian software companies have strong presence in US markets .last year India exported US$ 6.2 billion worth of software out of which Almost 62 percent of exports were to North America . please see http://www.nasscom.org/it_industry/it_industry_home.asp for further details .
thanks


I think Andy was referring to companies that establish offices physically located in the US, since they were talking about American companies with offices physically located in India.
 
Jason Menard
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Someone *cough*Ram Ram*cough* brought up the dropping of the atomic bombs on Japan. I think the question was why did we drop the second one.
My understanding is that the rasoning behind why we dropped the second bomb is two-fold. It seems that after we dropped the first one, the Japanese (and the Russians) were convinced that it was a one-shot deal and that we could not have made more than one atomic device. The Japanese were not yet ready to surrender. I understood that the dropping of the second bomb was to convince Japan it really needed to surrender, as well as having the side effect of demonstrating to Russian and Japan that we had the capability to deploy the A-bomb as needed.
It should be understood at the time that the scientists who came up with the A-bomb did not know what the long term effects of radiation exposure. In fact we exposed countless numbers of our own troops during testing. I would like to think that if we did know what the long term damages were, that we wouldn't have done it.
As for why we bombed a city and not just a military site, that's just how wars were fought back then. There were no precision guided weapons. The cities I believe were chosen for their industrial value. It is also my understanding that we at first had another city in mind other than Hiroshima (can't remember which) but did not bomb it because of the cultural and religious importance of it.
This does not mean I agree with what we did, there is a school of thought that points to the number of lives that were saved by ending the war, but I am just presenting the situation as I understand it. There is not a country in the world that doesn't have the blood of innocents on its hands however, to pretend otherwise is foolish.
 
Anonymous
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I get to see lot of "Made in China" stuff in US and still history tells me that you hate communists more than laden.


Hold up. While communism is against American ideals(freedom -- i.e. capitalism), it is not at all an inherently bad thing. That communists have made a mess and mockery of the Marxist philosophy is their own problem. The arms race and power struggle between the communists and freedomists was what cause tension. Laden is actually much worse. There is nothing in the communist philosophy that dictates mass murder (although Stalin found killing Russian citizens to be effective). The Osama (or Usama, whichever you like) bin Ladin is ten times worse.
 
Sahir Shibley
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Andy,

You seem to have been leading an amazingly sheltered existence. Believe it or not, many Indian companies have offices in the US. I know you are a born sceptic so I will post this link here. This is about an Indian company called WIPRO .
http://www.wipro.com/shortcuts/locations.htm
Now about Americans working in India for Indian Comapanies. This may come as a shock to you but such a thing also exists. I know you need evidence for everything. It is hard to provide evidence unless the person concerned has been in the news. Usually only high profile executives like CEOs make it to the news columns. I found one for you.
http://www.financialexpress.com/fe/daily/20000421/fco21035.html
This is a news item about an Indian domstic carrier called Jet Airways. Please scroll down to the part that says " Jet recentlyappointed Steve Forte, a US citizen of Italian origin, as its new CEO."

[This message has been edited by Sahir Shibley (edited October 09, 2001).]
 
Jason Menard
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Sahir,
I don't think anyone doubts (at least I don't) that there are Indian companies in America, we have companies from all over the world here, I think Andy's point was one of scale. Ditto for my point about programmers, I am sure it does happen to some extent, but not in the hundreds of thousands.
I find that interesting that the paper refers to Steve Forte as "a US citizen of Italian origin". With a name like Steve Forte it doesn't appear as if he is a first generation immigrant. Why not just say "an US citizen"?

[This message has been edited by Jason Menard (edited October 09, 2001).]
 
Andy Ceponis
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Sahir,
Please try to read your posts over again and then read our responses. You were talking about HUGE companies like "Pepsi , McDonadls , IBM , Microsoft ". Now name an Indian company like one of those. Please. I beg you. So please do us a favor and dont use examples and then forget about them a minute later.
And i think i made my point. WIPRO? I can guarantee you 99% of Americans have never heard of it. But how many Indians have heard of your above mentioned companies? Different scales at work here. Get it?
 
Andy Ceponis
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Originally posted by Sahir Shibley:
Andy,
You seem to have been leading an amazingly sheltered existence.



And what makes you so worldly? Are you an expert in all the countries of the world? Your arrogance amazes me. You have no clue about me or my life, and you just blurt things out even though you look down upon others who do the same.
 
Mapraputa Is
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Originally posted by Sahir Shibley:
Here's a hypothetical situation to elucidate the point Jim made about "admitting mistakes != apology ".


Since we all here are programmers, the only thing we should care is formal correctnes of our or our enemies statements. I applaud Jim and Sahir and to contribute to this noble intellectual MD tradition, here is my illustration to Jim's point "admitting mistakes != apology ".

A while back Mapraputa posted something like: "Ok, Jim, you won. This time" More elaborately it means "Jim, I admit that I made a mistake, which allowed you to win our argument. But I promise to learn from my mistakes, so do not expect an easy victory next time". Absolutely no apologies
 
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Originally posted by Andy Ceponis:
WIPRO? I can guarantee you 99% of Americans have never heard of it.


Thats the "frog in a well" attitude that was being explained elsewhere in MD.. Fact is that there are lots of Indian companies here that employ Americans too.. If you care not to see them since you cant seem to pull your head out, thats your problem.
 
Sahir Shibley
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Jason,
The issue is not how many Indians work in the US or how many Americans work in India. Nor is it a "mine is bigger than yours" contest . I was quoting an example in an attempt to define the relationship between the expatriate employee and the host country.
Now regarding hatred. I dont think the words you quoted express hatred. The words


TO GIVE YOU "WHITE" EXAMPLE.
DID YOU READ HISTORY OF EUROPIAN COUNTRIES? YOUR BELOVED FRANCE? ITALY?
GERMANY?
TO GIVE YOU BLACK EXAMPLE DID YOU READ HISORY OF SOUTH AFRICA?
BROWN: INDIA
RED: CUBA. DID YOU READ ABOUT CHE? HOW CAN YOU IT MUST BE BANNED IN FREE WORLD.


seem to be a borderline case. It almost seems like a racist comment. But if you read it with a dispassionate attitude it may not appear so. If he really did express some kind of pathological hatred toward the United States he would have been subjected to a similar treatment , or even worse .
Regarding arrogance and air of moral superiority. I dont know about the arrogance. I must see conclusive evidence of arrogance before I admit that I am an arrogant person. Regarding air of moral superiority. You have me there. But I think I earned it with my willingness to admit my mistakes and apologise if I have unnecessarily hurt someone's feelings and the ability to abstain from hating someone who displays hostility and hatred and the willingness to spend so much time in attempting to educate them .
[This message has been edited by Sahir Shibley (edited October 09, 2001).]
 
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Sahir you forgot
YELLOW Chinese.
 
Andy Ceponis
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Great, now its not only Sahir but Maky as well that cant read. What i posted was in response to SAHIR's post. I didnt start the discussion with examples of my own. Please read all the posts before responding. And if you dont get it, then dont post. And if i have my head stuck, then your right there with me, except i can obviously still read.
 
Jason Menard
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Originally posted by Sahir Shibley:
Jason,
The issue is not how many Indians work in the US or how many Americans work in India. Nor is it a "mine is bigger than yours" contest . I was quoting an example in an attempt to define the relationship between the expatriate employee and the host country.


Agreed


Now regarding hatred. I dont think the words you quoted express hatred. The words ...
seem to be a borderline case. It almost seems like a racist comment. But if you read it with a dispassionate attitude it may not appear so. If he really did express some kind of pathological hatred toward the United States he would have been subjected to a similar treatment , or even worse .


I guess this is all a matter of perceptions. I was taking the totality of Ram Ram's statements and his tone of hostility into account.


Regarding arrogance and air of moral superiority. I dont know about the arrogance. I must see conclusive evidence of arrogance before I admit that I am an arrogant person. Regarding air of moral superiority. You have me there. But I think I earned it with my willingness to admit my mistakes and apologise if I have unnecessarily hurt someone's feelings and the ability to abstain from hating someone who displays hostility and hatred and the willingness to spend so much time in attempting to educate them .


Like you I also have no problem admitting I am wrong, and have done it in these forums, while not going back to edit my original offensive comments to make myself look better.
As for non-American arrogance, these stem from comments such as "the place of brains", posts that basically say "we are the smartest people in the world", you get the idea.
As for you alluding to me as someone who displays hostility and hatred... I will accept the appearance of hostility in some of my posts, but the characterization of hatred is just plain unfair. I have been careful not to hurl insults at any person or any group. I realize it is hard not to be offensive because pretty much anything that anyone has said has offended somebody, regardless of intent. So let's just say you have misperceived my intents. In fact if you go to the Job Discussion board, and check out some of the old H1B threads, you will see that while I have issues with the H1B program as designed by the US government and the US tech industry, I have no problem with the people in the program and actively encourage immigration where the goal is citizenship.
All I have been doing all along is to try to educate you as to what the basis for some of our reactions is, or why we might think a certain way.
What I am beginning to realize now though is that if anyone dares to brings up anything negative about India, regardless of the tone or context it is presented in, then they are seen to be "finger pointing" and they must hate Indians. What a load of bull.
Ram Ram actually has some valid points worth discussing, but when he presents them like he does, the response is not always going to be good.
 
Anonymous
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"TO GIVE YOU "WHITE" EXAMPLE.
DID YOU READ HISTORY OF EUROPIAN COUNTRIES? YOUR BELOVED FRANCE? ITALY?
GERMANY?
TO GIVE YOU BLACK EXAMPLE DID YOU READ HISORY OF SOUTH AFRICA?
BROWN: INDIA
RED: CUBA. DID YOU READ ABOUT CHE? HOW CAN YOU IT MUST BE BANNED IN FREE WORLD."
The "EXAMPLE" in above post was about how people of all sorts of race/religion/culture/countries earned their freedom by spiling blood.
It only shows my respect to all the above mentioned people.

If it does not show the respect (because it is pasted out of context by jason). Let me make sure I make it clear that I do respect white people from europian countries because it was italyian and Franch revoln from which many indian freedom fighters took inspiration.
I respect black people in south africa for the way they fought peacefuly using mahatma gandhi's methods of non voilance.
Same goes in other cases.
In case you do not know Red is not a skin colour. Its colour of an idology(which I do not blv. in)
It was my reply to Jason's post which claimed that americans are unique in that sense. I just gave him examples of four corners of world.
This is just another example of how Jason is trying to distort facts. Same goes for all the other examples he gave. (If you read the context).
About Brits: After losing Falklands war against argentina their confidence has touched rock bottom (which was already very low after WWII). And I have not heard of a British PM saying anything different than US. Whether its bombing Tripoli/Bengazi, Iraq or afgh. The comment was supposed to be taken lightly(which Angela took lightly). But Brits did not help terrorism. In fact Poor guys suffered a lot from IRA.
Unfortunatly, I know bit too much for Andy Jason et al. And I see both sides of the coin. And make my points with examples.
They can not match me with counter examples. But they do not want to agree with me so they distort the facts as shown above or say "Go Back", "Grow UP" and other BS.

[This message has been edited by Jim Yingst (edited October 13, 2001).]
 
Sahir Shibley
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Originally posted by Ram Ram:

About Brits: After losing Falklands war against argentina their confidence has touched rock bottom (which was already very low after WWII)


Stevie,
Cancel the Bali trip. We are going to a new place .


[This message has been edited by Jim Yingst (edited October 13, 2001).]
 
Jason Menard
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Ram Ram! You're back! I missed you. Or were you just taking the last several days to formulate a response?

Originally posted by Ram Ram:
The "EXAMPLE" in above post was about how people of all sorts of race/religion/culture/countries earned their freedom by spiling blood.


I never said other cultures didn't. You (surprisingly) misinterpreted what I said. I said the US was the model often pointed to by other countries. Our documents stating our freedoms and form of government such as the Constitution and Bill of Rights are actually derived from European documents, the Magna Carta for example. The common thought though is that we simply had a better implementation.


If it does not show the respect (because it is pasted out of context by jason). Let me make sure I make it clear that I do respect white people from europian countries because it was italyian and Franch revoln from which many indian freedom fighters took inspiration.
I respect black people in south africa for the way they fought peacefuly using mahatma gandhi's methods of non voilance.
Same goes in other cases.


I wonder why many of your opinions seem to be race based? Why does it have to be respecting white people or black people? Why not just people? And as a side note, the South Africans resorted to a great deal of violence on both sides as they waged their battle for freedom. It is very true that peaceful means were also employed very successfully, but I don't want you to think that it was a peaceful struggle for freedom (but a necessary and just struggle for freedom).


In case you do not know Red is not a skin colour. Its colour of an idology(which I do not blv. in)


It is also a skin color. The skin color of Native Americans is referred to as red.


This is just another example of how Jason is trying to distort facts. Same goes for all the other examples he gave. (If you read the context).
About Brits: After losing Falklands war against argentina their confidence has touched rock bottom (which was already very low after WWII).


I'm distorting facts? Well, you obviously aren't aware, but the British won the Faulklands War. Unless there is another interpretation to be made from the June 14, 1982 surrender by Agrentina.


Unfortunatly, I know bit too much for Andy Jason et al. And I see both sides of the coin. And make my points with examples.
They can not match me with counter examples. But they do not want to agree with me so they distort the facts as shown above or say "Go Back", "Grow UP" and other BS.


You kill me man. It's like I'm fighting a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent. I need only to refer to your comment on the Faulklands war as the latest example. I only started even really responding in this thread when you continuously misrepresented my comments. And to those misrepresentations I'm fairly certain I did provide counter-examples and clarification. I even tried to address one of the serious points you made in one of your posts, but it seems you have no response once someone actually responds to you.

[This message has been edited by Jim Yingst (edited October 13, 2001).]
 
Anonymous
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Apology for not getting back quickly. Work is bit hectic now a days. So not getting much time for "educate america about international terror" campaign.

Originally posted by Jason Menard:
"In case you do not know Red is not a skin colour.
Its colour of an idology(which I do not blv. in)"
It is also a skin color. The skin color of Native Americans is referred to as red.


Yes, but not in the statment that I made and you refered. I think I did make it clear enough that I was talking about cuban revolution in there. That is what I mean by seeing things out-of-context.
About Falklands war.
I know very much that Brits won on paper. The amount they had to struggle to get that victory was not something they ever expected. It was almost a defeat like situation, considering the strength of their navy and the fact that just 30 yrs back, they were absolute power ruling half the world. The war shattered their confidence and since then
britForeignPolicy = USForPol.deepClone();
Rest of the NATO countries also support US. but they use shallow copy.The way brits do it is almost submissive.
[This message has been edited by Jim Yingst (edited October 13, 2001).]
 
Jim Yingst
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FYI Ram, I believe the spelling you were looking for is "Falklands". I've taken the liberty of correcting it for you.
 
Jason Menard
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Originally posted by Ram Ram:
About Falklands war.
I know very much that Brits won on paper. The amount they had to struggle to get that victory was not something they ever expected. It was almost a defeat like situation, considering the strength of their navy and the fact that just 30 yrs back, they were absolute power ruling half the world. The war shattered their confidence


Ok.... So you make blantanly false statements, I call you on it, and then you say something along the lines of "well of course I knew that but what I meant was..."? This has happened multiple times now in multiple threads. Anyway...
The British defeated the Argentinians in 74 days, only 33 of which was actual combat. At the time their military, including their navy, had been on a steady decline since WW2. Similarly the US military I should mention was also on the decline around the same time, post-Vietnam. The Argentinian navy was only slightly smaller than the British navy. The British Royal Navy did learn some lessons regarding air defense, and faulty design issues with some of their vessels. Some of their designs proved to be structurally unsound, and they also made an unfortunate choice in paint for their vessels. This paint proved to be highly flammable and was the cause for the vast majority of British Royal Navy casualties. They also learned that the Harrier was an invaluable weapons system, and that their militaries un-battle-tested tactics were very sound. The war was a huge success for Margaret Thatcher and cemented her re-election. So this was not an "almost defeat like situation". In fact it served to help re-focus the Royal Navy into becoming the force it is today.

and since then
britForeignPolicy = USForPol.deepClone();
Rest of the NATO countries also support US. but they use shallow copy.The way brits do it is almost submissive.
[This message has been edited by Jim Yingst (edited October 13, 2001).]


You seem to have little understanding of either the United States or the United Kingdom. Anglo-American relations were pretty much strained up until the 1930s when Winston Churchill took office. While it was already acknowledged that we shared ideals, he recognized that the two nations in fact needed to realize that they share common interest. It is important to note that Britain was a by far a major world power at this time, who many countries looked to for support, guidance, inspiration, etc... It is also important to note that Britain has seldom had much in common with the continental Europeans.
So given the situation at the time, and the recognition that the United States had become a great world power, Churchill recognized the need for close ties. He wrote "the first and surest of all methods of maintaining the peace of the world would be an understanding between Great Britain and the United States whereby they would together maintain very powerful air forces and navies decisively stronger that those of other countries put together, and secondly that they would use these forces, as well as the whole of their influence and money power, in support of any state which was the victim of unprovoked aggression." This at a time when we didn't exactly have the closest relations. Possibly in a backhanded reference against the continental Europeans he stated that "the greatest tie of all is language", reflecting the common thought in England at the time that "the ultimate policy of Britain and the United States of America must be identical if civilization is to hold together." The British were taking a view of the two great English speaking nations in the world, the two major powers in the world, as being responsible to save the world from destruction.
The coming of WW2 gave much more need for Britain to cement her ties with the US. Despite the attack on Pearl Harbor, it was in some ways the Brits who actually brought us into the war. Since the war we have maintained the vision of common goals and interests, made deeper by shared language and heritage as a British colony. You can pretty much also lump the Canadians and Australians in with the British and Americans.
It's not a matter of Britain copying our foreign policy, it is simply that because of our history we have nearly the same interests and a very close relationship. Ditto the Australians and Canadians. I think the thing that upsets the weaker, squabbling nations of the world about our relations are that we are individually very powerful nations, but our power is magnified when we act as one in world affairs (in the UN for example).
That's just the way it is and the way it will always be. I don't think there are many Americans who would hesitate to go to war if Canada, Australia, or the United Kingdom were threatened, and apparently they feel the same way.
Class is dismissed.
[This message has been edited by Jason Menard (edited October 13, 2001).]
 
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Here are some people who claim to be Indian but I feel they are
not:
- The Point
- Ram Ram
They might be Pakistanis who are masquarading as Indians.
 
Sahir Shibley
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Originally posted by Jim Yingst:
FYI Ram, I believe the spelling you were looking for is "Falklands". I've taken the liberty of correcting it for you.


But that makes my previous post meaningless
[This message has been edited by Sahir Shibley (edited October 14, 2001).]
 
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Why do you think they are not Indian, and what would their motive be for masquerading?

Originally posted by Amitabh Sharma:
Here are some people who claim to be Indian but I feel they are
not:
- The Point
- Ram Ram
They might be Pakistanis who are masquarading as Indians.


 
Amitabh Sharma
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Arthur,
Well "The Point" always seems to be making points that actually go against India / Hindu religion. I dont like what he says.
 
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Originally posted by Sahir Shibley:
But that makes my previous post meaningless


Sahir...
you're complaining about your posted became meaningless in the meaningless forum... you make Angela and the other moderator confused now (probably the other member of this forum too)
btw..
about the "edited" island..interesting.., but why we have to cancel our trip to Bali, Baldamus and Wasabe are there already, and they started to enjoy themself with exotic asian female
 
Anonymous
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Ha Ha Ha.. So all the medals earned by some Argentinien soldiar should be given to some cheap afghan worker working in British paint factory for producing inflamable paint. Good excuse for hiding defeat ...
---------------------------------
"You seem to have little understanding of either the United States or the United Kingdom."
Which is still much better than your understanding of India, China, Russia, Pakistan, Afghanistan Panama, Japan.
UK is no longer worth going in to details. And Canada, Australia never were and never will be. Of course they share your ideals in the sense that these countries are also formed by white "immigrants" who occupied and killed the natives.
(The "Red" that you refered to unfortunatly couldnt be mentioned in my list because their freedom struggle could not succeed or take shape.)
But I daubt if they do share the US "ideals" any more. If they share something it is only vasted interests in oil resources or they are your pupets. And I do see a difference between Aus and British foreign policy. Aussies are not submissive.
So if co-operation between these countries continues, it is not a surprise for me. None of these "powerful" nations said anything when you tested your N-Bomb at cost of 100 thousand japanees lives. Of course because they shared your "ideals". Ideals that made zia ul haq, Bin Laden, Musharraf and Noriega.
-------------------
"...Churchill recognized the need for close ties. He wrote "the first and surest of all methods of maintaining the peace of the world would be an understanding between Great Britain and the United States whereby they would together maintain very powerful air forces and navies decisively stronger that those of other countries put together, and secondly that they would use these forces, as well as the whole of their influence and money power, in support of any state which was the victim of unprovoked aggression."
..."
Wow!!
He made these statements while british forces were still holding on to their own three centuries old "agression" over half the world population mostly in third world countries.
So distortion of facts is continuing since then. He should have applied for US citizenship. You guys surely share "ideals" I can see that.
Now being an educated person you do not find his statements contradictory and think you are making a good point then I wont blame uneducated muslims around the world if they believe in bin laden's jehad. Because also thinks like churchil that his war is "in support of thoes who are the victims of unprovoked aggression". (Amitabh, Dont worry. I do not agree with him)
But again Churchil and Bin Laden can have common things. I ve read somewhere that he had simillar concepts of "pure blood" as Hitlar. Though this may not be true.
--------
"Despite the attack on Pearl Harbor, it was in some ways the Brits who actually brought us into the war."
Good you stated that clearly. Because many americans try to see it as they were attacked without reason by japan. The reason you were attacked was you had already started helping allies in big way on other people's soil so Japan had to start the real war.
In fact many try to use PH as an analogy for WTC. PH was an attack on military base and WTC an attack on "civilians". (Which makes it closer to use of second atomic bomb on "purely civilian" population.)
I pray to god that WTC should not end with loss of 100 thousand lives. And reason I am afraid that it might is not just because Bin Laden is involved. Because he is not capable of killing 100 thousand. Who is and who did ?? (Avoid it as you did with almost all of my questions in all the threads and talk about your "ideals" instead)
----------------------
Since the war we have maintained the vision of common goals and interests, made deeper by shared language and heritage as a British colony. You can pretty much also lump the Canadians and Australians in with the British and Americans.
I do not remember clearly if USA is member of British commenwealth. does anyone? I do get to see lot of sign boards in lanuage that I do not understand when I go to canada. No it is not language. I leave it to you to guess what binds these countries.
----------------
"I think the thing that upsets the weaker, squabbling nations of the world about our relations are that we are individually very powerful nations, but our power is magnified when we act as one in world affairs (in the UN for example)."
UN ?? Why dont I hear much about them when there is real big problem ? Ohh yeah ... how did I forget yesterdays news about 4 UN people killed in US bombings on afgh.
I know that at present the "squible" is between US(weak?) and afghanistan. One before that I remember was between US(weak?)and China(weak?) over few americans who tried to sneak in to china. Or may be they were on humaniterian mission to drop food packets for weak chinese children.
And I also know very well that India which you guys still imagine as a nation of snake charmers is certainly more powerful than some small island counry and some deserted contenent.
So nothing upsets me about that. I do not know if it upsets weak country like pakistan.
That's just the way it is and the way it will always be.
Class is dismissed.
-----------------------
Jim,
Dont you know they changed the name since brits "f***ed up" in that war. C'mon it was just a good joke. And I dont think any brits feel bad about that because it was aparantly due to their own "paint"
Any way, I can understand if you are concerned about f word as it comes with one of your duties as sherif.
------------
Andy,
Talk about length of my post or find out some misspells and gramatical errors. You can not do better than that.
 
Jason Menard
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Ram Ram unregistered,
That may have been your most incoherent one yet. Basically I'm done with you. You apparently have no capacity to hold an adult conversation. You try to pass off things that you apparently simply make up as fact. You make wild accusations and statements that do not have a shred of support behind them in an attempt to further your own views. You either have a total lack of comprehension of the subtelties (and not so subtelties for that matter) of the English language, or you simply distort what people are saying in their responses for the shear enjoyment of it. When people do try to respond to you with reason it usually results in you trying to ridicule them or insult them, or both. Have fun.
/ignore "Ram Ram"
 
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