To Pranav and the Others... :)

[Anonymous]

Well Jason, you seem to be ok with the barbaric Mughals and imperialist Christians who forcibalicy converted locals.
You are also ok with the missionaries who are still fooling people.
You have no answer to the points that I made, and even though I said that I do not support the murderer of Graham stains, you are calling me fanatic. Cool.
I never said Poor==mindless. But poor == helpless. And that's what the missionaries taking advantage of. And yes, I strongly oppose that. Looks like you support that.
The case in US is totally different that in India. In US, nobody is fooling anybody to adopt his religion.
If you call me fanatic, what are you? Probably a saint who supports forcible conversions.

[Pranav Jaidka]

Originally posted by Jason Menard:
I was not attacking your country, as I had stated. I was countering the claims of that one individual. I'm shocked anyone is sticking up for him.

I agree as do you that whats wrong is wrong.
We have our problems and so do you .However finger pointing and slamming each other does not help.
I feel that before we post anythign against the other country first we should look into ours. What is not happening in ours and happens in the other is worth discussion .Otherwise were just a buch of fools arguing over the same thigns.

[Jason Menard]

Originally posted by Aman Chain:
Well Jason, you seem to be ok with the barbaric Mughals and imperialist Christians who forcibalicy converted locals.
You are also ok with the missionaries who are still fooling people.
You have no answer to the points that I made, and even though I said that I do not support the murderer of Graham stains, you are calling me fanatic. Cool.
I never said Poor==mindless. But poor == helpless. And that's what the missionaries taking advantage of. And yes, I strongly oppose that. Looks like you support that.
The case in US is totally different that in India. In US, nobody is fooling anybody to adopt his religion.
If you call me fanatic, what are you? Probably a saint who supports forcible conversions.

You make the assumption that I agree with your blanket characterization of the missionarie. I do not. You are using fale logic to attribute my support to anything.
I'm sure you will not believe me in this regards, but it is a fact. It is the religious duty of some Christian clergy to perform missionary work. To do that, they have to go to where the poor are. The edict is not to go out and convert the poor, the edit is to provide aid to the poor. I have no doubt that some of these missionaries convert some of the people they help. If you truly believed in religious freedom, this would not be an issue. Conversion however is not a prerequisite of receiving aid. There are Christain schools run by missionaries, there are also schools run by them where it is not required to be a Christian. The missionaries are convinced that the real problem some have is the fact that the poor are getting an education. Who's to say.
All my comments have been about Hinud extremists, not Hindus. You said you do not agree with the fanatics, yet at the same time you justify their actions. Justifying the murder of a man, and his 8 year old and 10 year old sons puts you in the same category with the perpetrators. There can be no justifications for such things. I would expect that most of your country was outraged however, but I did not expect to find somebody on this site justifying their crimes.
So you made two comments I failed to address.
One comment was about the Mughals and Christian Imperialists. I do not justify anybody's actions, but I have no interest in rehashing ancient history.
Your other comment about the poor people being not able to understand the issues involved. Well, if they are not educated, they may not understand the issues and may have no basis to make a free choice. The solution, if you accept your characterization, is to educate them. Isn't that what the missionaries are doing? Or is the only valid education available from someone who shares your point of view? And if so, why is that education not available?
As I said, I was trying very hard to only describe the actions of extremists. I did not forsee anybody actually sympathisizing the extremists. That was my obviously my mistake.
I have now noticed a common formula that seems very accepted around here. It is perfectly acceptable for anybody around here to be the target of possibly unflattering posts, particularly the US and Christians, but don't anybody dare bring up anything even remotely negative about India or anything associated with it. Now that the ground rules are layed out you guys should be happy.

[Anonymous]

Originally posted by Jason Menard:
You make the assumption that I agree with your blanket characterization of the missionarie. I do not. You are using fale logic to attribute my support to anything.

Well, did you say anything about the facts that I mentioned? How will I know that you do not support it?

I'm sure you will not believe me in this regards, but it is a fact. It is the religious duty of some Christian clergy to perform missionary work. To do that, they have to go to where the poor are. The edict is not to go out and convert the poor, the edit is to provide aid to the poor.

This is perfectly fine.

I have no doubt that some of these missionaries convert some of the people they help. If you [b]truly believed in religious freedom, this would not be an issue.
[/B]

This definitely is. They are converting them "before" they get educated. I have no objection if they provide education and whatever according the their addict and then let them decide.
Fooling somebody or taking advantage of ones situation is NOT religious freedom. It is a FRAUD.

All my comments have been about Hinud [b]extremists, not Hindus. You said you do not agree with the fanatics, yet at the same time you justify their actions. Justifying the murder of a man, and his 8 year old and 10 year old sons puts you in the same category with the perpetrators. There can be no justifications for such things.
[/B]

When did I justify it??? I said I do not support them but I can't blame them either. They are the same people whome the missionaries tried to convert. If missionaries can take advantage people's un-eviable position then so can others. If you play with fire, it is very much possible you'll get burnt too. And if you get burnt, who is to blame? Fire?

One comment was about the Mughals and Christian Imperialists. I do not justify anybody's actions, but I have no interest in rehashing ancient history.

Dear Jason, by any parameters 100 to 200 years is NOT ancient. It is very much has an affect on the present. You may call the conversion on Afghanistan from Buddhist to Islam as ancient but this is not the case in India.

Your other comment about the poor people being not able to understand the issues involved. Well, if they are not educated, they [b]may not understand the issues and may have no basis to make a free choice. The solution, if you accept your characterization, is to educate them. Isn't that what the missionaries are doing? Or is the only valid education available from someone who shares your point of view? And if so, why is that education not available?
[/B]

As I said before, if missionaries are so selfless, then why convert before educating the people. Why not first educate them and then let them convert on their own???

I have now noticed a common formula that seems very accepted around here. It is perfectly acceptable for anybody around here to be the target of possibly unflattering posts, particularly the US and Christians, but don't anybody dare bring up anything even remotely negative about India or anything associated with it. Now that the ground rules are layed out you guys should be happy.

You cannot be more wrong. Not in a single post, never, have I opposed the US. You amy want to check out my other posts but for your convenience I'm quoting my previous posts:
http://www.javaranch.com/ubb/Forum32/HTML/001137.html

I mean, look how US is helping itself....look how they responded to WTC. I have to admire US's attitude. If you have the will power, the world will line up with you.

http://www.javaranch.com/ubb/Forum32/HTML/001173.html

I respect American people for their hard work of centuries that turned the barren and hostile terrain into the best place on earth.

There are a lot more. But I guess this should be enough.
In fact, I have critisized Indians for thing that I believe are wrong. Here is a post: http://www.javaranch.com/ubb/Forum32/HTML/001182.html

I'm an Indian and I'll start with my top dislikes:
1. Caste System.
2. We Indians only talk a lot in the sense that we indulge in a lot of "discussions" but actually do nothing to improve our state of affairs.

Now, may be you should get out of your "boxed" thinking and try to understand what I am saying.

[Jason Menard]

Originally posted by Aman Chain:

Now, may be you should get out of your "boxed" thinking and try to understand what I am saying.

This definitely is. They are converting them "before" they get educated.

I would need evidence that this is the norm, I do not dispute it is in the realm of possibility that this happens on occasion, but I have no reasn to believe that it is the normal course of things because it goes against my experience. But I am open to the possibility. But I believe you should also be open to the possibility that this is not the norm.

When did I justify it??? I said I do not support them but I can't blame them either. They are the same people
whome the missionaries tried to convert. If missionaries can take advantage people's un-eviable position then so
can others. If you play with fire, it is very much possible you'll get burnt too. And if you get burnt, who is to blame?
Fire?

That looks like justification to me. And no these people are not necessarily people this man tried to convert.

The examples that you've given about the murder of Graham Stains etc. is just a "long delayed" reaction of local
hindus. They never went to other countries to force Hinduism. In fact, there are other religions in India too. How
come nobody kills Buddhist or Jainist or Sikhs? They also practice and preach their religions. But unlike Islam and
Christ. they DID NOT and DO NOT force any body to do so. That is not their "belief". That is not "approved" by these
religions.
Even if you collect all such examples they are miniscules as compared to similar crimes done by Muslims and
Christians.
Do I support them? NO. But I cannot blame them either.

You seem to be implying that since his murder was "just a long delayed reaction...." it must have been okay. Because after all Hindus have never gone to another country to force Hinduism, so the death of this man and his two young sons must be okay. There must be something wrong with Christianity because nobody is trying to kill Sikhs etc..., so their murder was understandable. There have been more crimes committed by Muslims and Christians so what's three deaths in the grand scheme of things? And then you say you don't support them, but you don't blame them? Not holding somebody accountable, or not blaming them, is tantamount to approving their actions.

Dear Jason, by any parameters 100 to 200 years is NOT ancient.

The United States is only 225 years old, we have a slightly different scale of time than you do. We don't dwell on events that are even as little as 100 years old. I do recognize that most of the world doesn't share that trait with us though, as witnessed by the justification of war and killing in many places in the world because of things that happened centuries ago.

Now, may be you should get out of your "boxed" thinking and try to understand what I am saying.

I have a better idea. Why don't we try to understand what each other is saying?

[Anonymous]

>I have a better idea. Why don't we try to understand what each other is saying?
I am with you on this one.

[Anonymous]

>Not holding somebody accountable, or not blaming them, is tantamount to approving their actions.
Jason, you are treading the wrong territory buddy. It is a well know fact, even US president knows it, that Pakistan actively supports terrorism in India. Now, think again about what you just said

[Jason Menard]

Originally posted by Aman Chain:
>Not holding somebody accountable, or not blaming them, is tantamount to approving their actions.
Jason, you are treading the wrong territory buddy. It is a well know fact, even US president knows it, that Pakistan actively supports terrorism in India. Now, think again about what you just said

What on earth does Pakistan supporting terrorism have to do with this? Now if for some reason you are talking about the US not holding Pakistan accountable for its support of terrorism, although it may not have tangible results that you can see, I believe we have recently held their feet to the fire on that one. You don't think they just let us use their airspace cause they're nice guys do you? I have no doubts that we threatened them for their part in terroris, which is why they rolled over like a beaten dog. Sure we gave them some debt relief (or was it an aid package?), but we did the same for India at the same time. Rest assured that Pakistan was given no choice but to allow us use of their country. I wouldn't be surprised if we worked out a deal at the same time to see to the dismantling of their terrorist camps as well, but time will tell.

[Anonymous]

>What on earth does Pakistan supporting terrorism have to do with this?
Nothing. It just struck me when I read your statement. Uptill now, US has not spoken a single word against Pak. So, according to your statement, US thus supports terrorism.
Again, clubbing India with Pak as sensless as clubbing Hinduism and Islam/Christianity.
There was no point of putting santions on India in the first place. So removing those doesn't matter. In fact, unlike pak., India had virtually no impact of the sactions.
Further, unlike to Pak. US has not given any such aid/package to India. Not that I am complaining about it but I sure find this as double standards.
Again, let me make this clear to you. If I were a US citizen I would agree with US policies too. I have always said that it is perfectly fine for the countries to do what is good for them. As a third party, I appriciate and admire the way US takes care of it's people and business, but as an Indian, I hate this "smart" politics of US. And more than that I feel frustrated and angry with my government for playing in the hands of US and not doing what is good for India.

[Jason Menard]

Actually we have had much to say about Pakistan. We recognize them as assisting the Afghans with terrorism. However we are not bombing them for more pragmatic reasons I expect. I am sure that pressures have been put on in other ways though. Remember that our plan isn't to use the military on every sponsor of international terrorism, We have several means at our disposal to obtain the results we desire, and not all of them require the military.
However I don't believe that every conversation here has to wind up being about Pakistan so that's all I have to say about it. The original topic was much more interesting anyway.

[Pranav Jaidka]

Jason
Youre begining to enjoy yourself right ??? ..he he he he.

[Jason Menard]

Originally posted by Pranav Jaidka:
Jason
Youre begining to enjoy yourself right ??? ..he he he he.

Always.

[Jason Menard]

Originally posted by Aman Chain:
>Not holding somebody accountable, or not blaming them, is tantamount to approving their actions.
Jason, you are treading the wrong territory buddy. It is a well know fact, even US president knows it, that Pakistan actively supports terrorism in India. Now, think again about what you just said

Oh yeah I forgot to mention... I stand by that statement.

[Sahir Shibley]

Having fun kids ? Its good to see people having a heated debate
about politics without insulting each other and becoming abusive .

[Bartholemu Smith]

If my Donkeys were Liberated...I would be having tons more fun

[Amitabh Sharma]

The Point,
Are you really a Hindu by religion. I very much doubt that.

[srinath prasad]

jason you should not be knowing that thousands of americans regularly come to india in search of peace of mind and because they are impressed by hinduism and they want to learn hinduism , as number of indians come to america every year for money .. here in india you will find number of americans learning hinduism in aashrams , iscon hindu temples etc.
one of the reason can be improper family structure and culture of usa , where
- even 12 years old kids have guns and they kill number of others , including their teachers.
- where appox. highest number of unmarried mothers ,children without legal fathers.
- highest average number of divorce after marriage and least average of years for keeping on married life, so childern are living either mother or father or alone , can be the reason they find mental peace even if they have money.
i am not saying that american culture and society is moraly bad or not organized , but i am trying to point that every society and culture have their own problems , for example india has money problem but very well organized family structure and they are moving ahead to solve their problems , same for americans also.

[Michael Ernest]

I don't want to burst your bubble here, Srinath, but the people who travel to India from here for religious inspiration are the ones that can afford it, not the ones who "need" it. Hinduism offers no qualitatively better view of the world. But from Western eyes, it is quite different. And there are lots of Westerners who want to understand it. So they go to the source! I wouldn't make anything more out of it than that.
Hinduism never solved any of the social problems you mentioned. You might be surprised to learn that many Christian organizations tout the same virtues in their systems: strong family order, respect for teachers, attention to the needs of the children, etc.
If you're looking for a real cause in America, it's opportunity. Everyone wants some. You find many married couples where both parents work, and in areas like mine, a cost of living so high that many couples must work. We have neglected children here like anywhere else; we apparently have people willing to sell guns to anyone. For many people in this country, family structure does not provide the means to cope with the liberties available here.
What we *don't* have here are border wars, armed conflicts between different religious sects, rampant disease, and overpopulation. That's pretty much how India appears to many of us. I'm sure you're just as unhappy with that impression of India as I am with your depiction of the U.S. In any event, if there are indeed thousands of European-derived U.S. citizens going to India to find something better, it's statistically insignificant. We send millions of people abroad every year for all sorts of reasons. It's the number that come back that should tell you something.
So far as the Pakistan thread has been going here, don't imagine for a second that Pakistan is NOT on the list of countries the U.S. may ultimately attack. They haven't fooled anyone, and they know it. Why would they be so eager to assist in negotiations otherwise?
[This message has been edited by Michael Ernest (edited October 13, 2001).]

[Jason Menard]

Originally posted by srinath prasad:
- even 12 years old kids have guns and they kill number of others , including their teachers.

if Americans really had as many guns as many in the world think we do....

[Tony Alicea]

Ha ha ha ha!! That's really funny!
In a more serious note, we will kill all terrorists in all countries.