I Really Think there is a Saturation of Java Developers

[Jeff Kinsey]

Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
A lot of job openings but no one's actually hiring.

So true, the fact that one sees a lot of job postings on Dice or Monster does not necessarily reflect the state of the current situation. One company may require a single java developer; they may have several placement firms working with them to fill that single position. The next thing you know there are a dozen postings from different placement firms trying to fill the exact same position. So it looks like there are 12 jobs when in reality there was only ever one.
The point is that job postings are not a true barometer for the current situation in the job market.

[Thomas Paul]

Originally posted by Jeff Kinsey:

So true, the fact that one sees a lot of job postings on Dice or Monster does not necessarily reflect the state of the current situation. One company may require a single java developer; they may have several placement firms working with them to fill that single position. The next thing you know there are a dozen postings from different placement firms trying to fill the exact same position. So it looks like there are 12 jobs when in reality there was only ever one.
The point is that job postings are not a true barometer for the current situation in the job market.

That is very true. One firm had 6 entries on Dice for one position which they decided not to fill.

[LadyMahler]

Unemployment seems to be a recurring theme on this forum.
Be careful, in your pain and struggle, to loose compassion for those that are with you in the same boat. We are all citizens of the world - none of us chose our place of birth or our parents. It is possible to point out many things/people/policies that made it harder for some to lead a better life (or, in fact, merely survive) in a place where they believe they have a right to.
I say: the pursual of these things (or scapegoats) are trivial if they are at the cost of even the smallest act of wisdom or love - we have witnessed how two of our most admired JavaRanchers stopped talking. Ignorance can hurt the receiver, yes, but nothing hurts more than realising that your ignorance has caused pain.
Second thing: do not be afraid to return to your country of origin if the life is perhaps not as easy or rewarding as it seems in the States (UK, Europe). The developing world as well as the underdeveloped world pose a huge responsibility as well as a challenge. You bring with you a wealth of knowledge and experience when you return. Do not forget who you are. You make a difference in the small things you do, every day - having compassion on those that are different, trying to mend a friendship, encouraging those that have lost hope. These are the things that carry us through tough times.
Remember that you are part of probably the coolest technology ever invented. Imagine the job problems of those techies that do not know Java. IT is in a slump: things will look up soon - mark these words.
Above all else, be kind. Trust that you will be given what you need to contribute to this world. You are all brave - "Our greatest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our greatest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure." (N.Mandela)

[Mapraputa Is]

Which two of "our most admired JavaRanchers stopped talking"? I did not, and Michael Ernest is simply on short vacations.

Kidding. Sorry. Whom do you mean?
Seriously, great post.

[Anonymous]

I feel terrible that many people lost jobs because
of US's economic slowdown. Many Americans were laid off. But They are not the worst kind in this
storm, the worst kind are those foreigners who are foreign to every one here, who are doing the toughest jobs with the lowest pay, and who are away from their family with ungrounded hope.
Life is tough for many immigrants, especially with no citizenship. They come here as cheap labor
when others need them, and are driven away as low-class human beings and even as hate targets. They
constantly work under pressure and discrimination. Yet, they are still hated with no reason when things get tough. Lots of people come from developping yet dynamic countries like China,
or India. They will be treated like treasures there if they come back, yet they still stay here to be treated like trash since they believe in a myth that says America is a land of promise! They work, work, work, contribute, contribute, contribute,...... They even still work when their
parents die. What is the main motivation for them to stay? In this country with a bunch of human beings with alianated nature? Simple stubbornness and stupidity and old dream that simply just do not exist. Sigh.

[Anonymous]

What is the main motivation for them to stay? In this country with a bunch of human beings with alianated nature? Simple stubbornness and stupidity and old dream that simply just do not exist. Sigh.

Maybe ur right......

[LadyMahler]

Map: I was talking about Thomas & Ernest.
Correct me if I'm wrong: doesn't the American Dream tie in with freedom to make one's own living and happiness, choosing one's own way? (Or is that the African dream?)
I guess my point is: remember why you left for greener pastures and if you did not find them, rather than lament the unfairness of life, perhaps learn and grow wise. You choose to stay/leave. And also: things can be much worse. If you have eaten today and had shelter where you slept, you're doing well compared to a rather huge percentage of the world population.
As long as you expect life to be fair and pay you out what it owes you, you'll be a very unhappy and frustrated person. And that's just it. If you realise that, perhaps then your eyes will open to the precious things that are present in your life, without you earning or deserving them.
I just got involved in a food security programme concerning the absolute poorest of poor and I think it has touched me, hence me continuing this debate. We are so privileged. I KNOW life is tough but we're all in it. If you are suffering then perhaps its purpose is to open your eyes, teach you compassion?

[Johannes de Jong]

We are so privileged. I KNOW life is tough but we're all in it. If you are suffering then perhaps its purpose is to open your eyes, teach you compassion
Well said.
Now pse me endorsing this statement does not imply I think anybody else in this thread with their own personal problem's must shut up and get on with it, far from it. I simply agree that bad things too can happen for a reason.
And I definitely do think we "westerners" are very very privileged.
heck I actually hate posting here, one must be soo carefull not to offend
[ February 20, 2002: Message edited by: Johannes de Jong ]

[LadyMahler]

Originally posted by Johannes de Jong:
heck I actually hate posting here, one must be soo carefull not to offend

Yes! Me too! I really don't want to shut anyone up or offend anyone (sometimes I do though, and I am truly sorry if I had). How will we become aware of each other's if we all just look like this . I speak out when I see a discussion taking a turn towards a one-sided view and the other side just either gives up or doesn't care anymore. Then the risk is that you loose your own thoughts & morale in a group attitude which might not be a sensible one.

[Michael Ernest]

Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
As someone who has been out of work for 4 months I resent that comment. I have not turned my nose up at any job and with two children to care for (one of them is disabled) I am in no position to turn my nose up at any job. In that time I have had exactly two interviews. I am very happy that you have a job but when you start talking about something that you don't have a clue about I wish you would shut your face.

Against my better judgment, I'll answer this, now that I'm aware of it.
Where are you going with this, Thomas? For starters, my comments were directed at what's going on in the Silicon Valley. It's a very, very different job market for high tech than the rest of the world. Second, I certainly was not directing comments at you, your current situation, and certainly not your family. Third, I'm self-employed, Thomas. The only job I have comes 3-5 days at a time, where and when I find 'em. A few weeks ago I was in Baltimore. Today I'm in Minnesota. Doing, you guessed it, work that the internal employees of my major client don't want to do. I do know what I'm talking about, Thomas; it is precisely that kind of work -- work no one (who can afford to say no) wants to do -- that I do to make my way in the world.
Even with that, I have worked roughly 12 full days since Jan 1; my other time I have been shaking trees, just like everyone else, putting in time here to stay sharp and maybe catch an opportuntity, etc., etc.
I dunno why this should make a damn bit of difference, but I have a family of my own, Thomas. Two children, mortgage, the whole business. I would guess I simply respond to the lack of work differently, and because my work is by nature on-again, off-again, maybe I'm more accustomed to a drought. But if you see me as blithely dismissing the worries of the have-nots from atop my mountain of gold, I'm sorry. That's just not the case.
[ February 21, 2002: Message edited by: Michael Ernest ]

[Thomas Paul]

What I was talking about was your comment that people are out of work because they are turning their noses up at jobs. I don't know anyone who fits that bill. I do know companies that are still hiring H1B's in spite of the fact that unemployment in NYC among programmers is very high. I know people who were laid off while people with H1B's were kept on.

[Michael Ernest]

Just because people here are out of work doesn't mean they aren't looking down their noses at those jobs.
"Here" referred to the Silicon Valley, Thomas.
[ February 21, 2002: Message edited by: Michael Ernest ]

[Jason Menard]

ME: A few weeks ago I was in Baltimore.
And you didn't stop by for a drink?! I'm aghast!

[Michael Ernest]

Always a wise guy around. Next time I'm there, I'm buyin', how's that?

[sid smith]

I know this post is old, but I have faced the same situation today. There are plenty of Java jobs and plenty of Java developers.

If a language is popular, there are many jobs for it and there is high competition because everyone chases it. Conversely, if a language is not very popular, there are less jobs and less competition. So, I'd try to chase something less popular if I see the chances of its popularity increasing. If I adopt the language early, I will have a lot of experience by the time it gains significant market share. That way, I will be ahead of most of my peers. On challenge to learning something new and less popular is that there might not be enough (good) documentation, books and questions on forums for it. If you can learn quickly despite the curve, then go for it. I believe that if a person has the aptitude to be a developer and keeps learning even with a job, then getting a job in a tough market is easier for them, than the competition.

Now I am wondering which are the rising stars or which ones are capable of challenging or replacing java in the market of 2014 onwards. Ruby, Python, Lisp, Erlang ???

[Bear Bibeault]

A lot of it depends on a lot of things. But in the area of web development the hottest jobs I see are for JavaScript, and secondly for Java. I'm not seeing any demand at all for Ruby, and small (teeny tiny) demand for Scala.

As always, YMMV. And outside of web development, I couldn't say as that's my focus.

[chris webster]

I think it's a case of keeping an eye on your target job market e.g. looking at job ads and pay rates (bearing in mind many jobs are advertised by many recruitment agencies), and also keeping an eye on technology and business trends in your target sectors. In particular, watch out for areas that seem to be approaching critical mass. Don't jump on every bandwagon, but if you see one approaching, take some time to consider whether this one looks like it might actually represent a longer term trend, where you might be able to get in ahead of the crowd, or where it might lead you into more interesting/lucrative specialised work with long term prospects. It's probably better to be the first Scala or Node.js developer on your street than the last J2EE developer. Unless you can afford to wait around until those legacy skills are rare enough to become valuable again!