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ultimatebb.cgi???????

 
Ranch Hand
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I have been continuously employed as a developer and project manager for the last 10 years.

My .sig is meant to express my disdain for folks who write books and teach classes, but never actually build anything that is in use in the real world. I have found that the world is full of such people.

Your site certainly has a fairly academic feel to it.


I'm sorry that your world is full of such people. Are you assuming that the world of JavaRanch is also full of such people, i.e. authors and teachers who have never actually built anything that is in use in the real world?

Do you actually know anything of the background of any of the people who post here or of the owner?

... assuming that you might make your living off of running this site.

Is this site broke because of the .com economy or because you all never intended for it to make any money?


Is the site broke? Is the owner making a living off of this site? Is there nothing between these two extremes?
 
Ranch Hand
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Originally posted by Chris Cingrani:
Chris -
After reading this thread, I have an idea. In one of his posts Paul mentioned that this site is visited by a quarter of a million people a month. I can't think of a better place for you to spread some of your philanthropy than to JavaRanch. Since you have mentioned that you could write a Java based bulletin board, why don't you do it and give it to Paul as a replacement to UBB? I for one would be interested in learning something from you, as I'm sure would the rest of the ranch. Since you claim that:

"The quality of my work raises the bar of society's expectations of software. My philanthropy lies in my ability to increase the value of what programmers do in the eyes of the world. That is a far greater gift than any mere cash donation I could ever afford."
I say it's time to stop talking and start coding. Come back and show us what you can do, rather than continuing to pat yourself on the back.


What a great idea? Chris vs. Chris
Our SCJD development team can benefit from your philanthropy too. I wrote a simple forum in Java for us to use, but not good enough to handle large volume of traffic yet. If you're worried about advertisement used here, we definitely have no ad banners.
We will keep our hope open, but will not wait for it. Our members will work on improving our premature one concurrently.
BTW, I was a univ. teacher for a long time, both in China and US. I was/am loved by my students both in my formal jobs and my private tutoring. I'm also one of those software developers who wrote quick, clean, well-documented code. I'm proud to be both and still have a positive attitude toward them.
Thanks!
Roseanne
Need Java real project experience? Join our project team here!
[ April 03, 2002: Message edited by: Roseanne Zhang ]
 
Bartender
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Originally posted by Chris May:
I don't expect much more from a Java site that won't even implement their forums in Java.


Chris:
Not to be personal about this, but you obviously have no idea what programming is about. Programming is not about what language is better than others. Neither is it about being a slave to a particular company or methodology (or a die-hard anti-company or anti-methodlogy person, for that matter). By insisting that this site should be written in Java, then you demonstrate that the only thing that you know how to do is mindlessly program in Java.
I agree that, when I first visiting the Ranch, I found it amusing that the site was a CGI site instead of a J2EE site. Amusing, but not heretical or bad. But I assumed that the people who set up this site selected the best software they could find.
Perhaps if you paid more attention to your instructors in college, you would find that the number one rule in programming is to not re-invent the wheel if you don't have to. UBB is current, supported, and works very well. If UBB ever fails for some reason, then a J2EE BB might move in. Or another CGI one might take over; it depends on what is on the market when UBB has run its course. This is called capitalism, and (at least here in the United Sates), is what governs business. Businesses run by idealism (which seems to be what you proffer) rarely succeed.
I have never learned nor programed in ADA. I have never needed to program in Scheme (a LISP dialect), although this is primarily because I have not done considerable AI. Any language where you can write a function to dynamically generate other functions (such as Scheme/LISP) is one that is very useful in AI. I would have loved to learn Smalltalk, because my job first involved programming in Objective-C, which drew on both Smalltalk and C. In fact, I have a tool that generates EJB code that is written in Objective-C. Why? Because the toolkit was already there. I could re-write the whole thing in Java (and eventually that will have to be done), but currently see no real need to do that. Each language has a specific purpose, and it behooves the programmer to know that so that he can choose the best language for the purpose. To that extent, I know and use C, C++, Objective-C, Java, and PERL. I also know, but have not yet professionally used, Scheme, LISP, and Python. I am always looking to learn new languages (although I have stayed away from VB and C#; my tolerance for M$ can only go so far ).
In short, I would encourage you to stick around this site and listen to the rest of us. We might be able to find you some easier ways to do things.
 
"The Hood"
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After re-reading the entire conversation, I have to say that we are going overboard whipping Chris here. Several times he has conceeded that he now sees some of our points. He even called this a "Nice Site" at one point.
I really think that he just does not realize how offensive and insulting some of his comments are. Perhaps if we just explained to him that many of the folks here are teachers, many of the folks here are authors, many of the folks here have been seriously burned by "quick and dirty" code, then he might understand why his original comments were not well taken.
And frankly Chris Cingrani has a good point. If Chris May really believes that this site SHOULD be based on java - and it is a valid opinion, just not mine (I am just too overloaded to help on that venture), and he is REALLY willing to pitch in and do some work with us, then we should be willing to talk about it nicely.
Of course if it is all "someone ELSE should do this" - then forget it. Just ask him to improve his manners.
 
Ranch Hand
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People calm down. I realize that the socialist java hacker is a bit immature and rebellious, but that is his own choice to make. He doesn't have many posts here, so I assume he is new to JavaRanch
What kind of welcome is this? We could have directed him to the Process forum or book reviews for his sig. We could have directed him to one of the JavaIsDead like wiki's at c2.com so a Smalltalk programmer could have told him that Java sucks and that software exists in the world beside the stuff you write. He could clearly benifit from the JavaRanch community. Let's not lock him out.
 
High Plains Drifter
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Chris May is not a socialist, if his posts to this topic are any indication. I find some of his comments obnoxious, some narcissistic, and some provocative apparently for personal satisfaction. Contempt for capitalism, by the way, is not a socialist tenet. Finding fault with capitalism and academia on principle suggest more frustration than philosophy at work.
Strangely enough, the idea that anyone considers his chosen industry bettered by his mere participation in it, thus constituting a form of philanthropy, is the one idea I find most in touch with the excesses of capitalism itself. It sounds quite familiar to some testimony I was listening to during the Enron hearings (or was it Iran/Contra? The S&L Collapse? The Milken trial?)
Darn memory.
 
mister krabs
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Originally posted by Chris May:
Classic. Rather than defend positions with rational arguments you all gang up and make personal attacks.

Classic demonstration of paranoia, as well. And what postions are we supposed to be defending?
 
Ranch Hand
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Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
Classic demonstration of paranoia...


Just because someone is paranoid doesn't mean someone isn't after them. I love that line, can't remember where I heard it but I really liked it - maybe MST3K ?? hmmm
 
Greenhorn
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I feel compelled to respond to a number of the comments that folks have made here.
In the world of fortune 500 companies, a programmer's power to dictate the language, architecture, or infrastructure that he/she works on is generally limited by his or her willingness to change employers.
Lotus Notes & Domino was a serious force in office automation from 1986 - 1998, which embraced Java wholeheartedly with a complete Java API in 1998, which I learned and applied immediately. From 1995-1998 I was employed by IBM as a contractor and had little choice as to what language I was writing in.
I would challenge ANYONE to build simple office automation and workflow application with another tool faster than I could build it in Lotus Notes & Domino. Lotus Domino is actually a great platform for a discussion forum. Ask the CIA.
After I stopped working for IBM and went to work for my current employer, I started off using Domino's Java "Agents", but they scaled poorly beyond 100 or so simultaneous users, so I strapped GNU JSP onto the Domino servlet engine in 1999, and have written web applications in JSP and Java ever since.
Oracle has all but discontinued new development with the legacy "forms" environment, and I always avoided any sort of Oracle forms development. Currently I develop front ends for Oracle Portal in pure Java against an Oracle database back-end. Oracle Portal is a fairly revolutionary product in my opinion, which can draw content from multiple "portlet providers" (servlet engines) to form a single html page, and provides a page authoring and security framework. IBM's Websphere portal product is a johnny-come-lately product based 99% on Oracle's work.
I am not "socialist". I am a corporate capitalist to the core, owning my own small corporation, working full time for a large corporation (global Fortune 75), and paying about 43% of my earnings in taxes.
I am very much disturbed by the special status our government affords academic, religious and other so-called "non-profit" organizations which act holier-than-thou while they take advantage of a system which is funded in large part by folks like myself paying 43% of my wages in taxes.
Many of my professors often abused students by putting us to work on projects to obtain fat corporate grants for themselves and help to develop material for their books... yet still took students' money in the form of tuition and then give the students poor grades just to make them work even harder on projects that are teaching skills which are far from those the real job market wanted or needed.
I have worked in many programming languages since I learned Basic on a Commodore PET in 1978 at the age of 8. Subsequently I learned Pascal, 6502 Assembly, 8085 Assembly, Fortran, C, ADA, Scheme, C++, REXX, Visual Basic, Visual C++, LotusScript, TSQL, PL/SQL, Java, HTML, ECMAScript, CSS and more recently XML and XSLT.
If and when I build a java forum from scratch, I will use it for my own site, which is currently under construction, www.javabeanery.com. Since you're happy with ubbs, I wish you all the best with it, and this site.
[ April 03, 2002: Message edited by: Chris May ]
[ April 03, 2002: Message edited by: Chris May ]
 
tumbleweed
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Well said Mr. Cingrani
 
Rancher
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I can't believe this thread is still going, and I just wanted to be a part of it.
 
Ranch Hand
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Hi Chris,
If you need partener to develop forum from scratch then I am ready to help you.
If thing is to use waht is available then there would be no need of lot of things.
Even as per you there should be only one company which should manufacture TV/Tape or any thing as they are improving there product.
OR one should not migrate from Vaccume tubes to transistor (a dirty example....)
But I see lot of valid points to use UBB, but not willing to go for Java is what which makes me sick...
 
Thomas Paul
mister krabs
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Originally posted by Ravish Kumar:
But I see lot of valid points to use UBB but not willing to go for Java is what which makes me sick...

The Java forum world is limited to Jive. Until recently Jive was not ready for prime time. Converting to Jive would be a huge and expensive undertaking.
 
arch rival
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Chris wrote
"I am not "socialist". I am a corporate capitalist to the core."
You certainly are Chris, but you seem to have swallowed the baby and the bathwater in that you appear to believe that the accumulation of wealth is the motivation behind all effort. You appear to chriticise JavaRanch first for believing it to be a money making exercise, and then when told that is not the primary purpose you criticise it for not being "successful".
I suspect that the people behind JavaRanch know that serving tens of millions of pages and, teaching tens of thousands of people about Java, learning a whole bunch of stuff themselves and forming friendships accross the globe was part of a measure of success. I also suspect some people will have found that they have an enhanced reputation by contributing and that may have helped with employment, but that is a pleasant by-product not the original motivation.
Sit back and contemplate that some undertakings are not primarily motivated by the direct aim of making money. Some of the most interesting and informative websites on the planet are obviously not motivated primarily by the profit motive. But don't get me wrong, I have nothing against the profit motive, it just isn't the driving force behind all effort all of the time.

Marcus
 
Michael Ernest
High Plains Drifter
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Chris -
Tell you what, Chris. If and when you build that site, and your hard work and sweat result in a tool that you're very proud of, maybe karmic justice will come around. Maybe someone will take the time (won't be me) to post to your site that they kind of enjoy it. Then again, it sucks because it fails to meet certain criteria they hold as self-evident to all. Then hopefully that same person tells you they will do a better job on their as-of-yet vaporware site, and even promote it on your clearly problematic site. They'll part by damning with faint praise, all designed to make it clear that they're simply above the results of their own provocations.
Then, Mr. May, we can truly say welcome: you will have arrived as the newest internet cliche, yet another guy who can only build himself up by knocking down others, and blithely promises the world something better but only has a domain name to show for it. Speaking as one of your disdained book-writing academics, I can only say anytime, anywhere you want to see who's actually helped raise the bar for this industry more, you or JavaRanch, I'll be there to watch the vote count.
[ April 04, 2002: Message edited by: Michael Ernest ]
 
Ranch Hand
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I'm thinking of starting a forum on COBOL programming. Chris, would be be a doll and help me write a forum written in COBOL? I'd hate for others to think that I was copping out by using HTML and other web technologies. Should we be making our own databases using COBOL to store the data too? One thing's for sure, even though there is software and databases out there that do the job we want, we won't consider them because we can do better at only 20X the cost (we won't work for free!) and in 99999...99X the time. Happy coding. :roll:
 
Ranch Hand
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This thread is really funny. It always amazes me when somebody starts spewing stuff just to provoke a reaction and everybody gets upset instead of ignoring the jerk. Are Chris May's comments really worthy of 50+ posts of discussion? It's obvious that nobody agrees with him and that he gets off on pulling people's chains. People like him love the internet because the volumne of reaction is so much higher.
Let's call this an end to the thread folks, and anyone who sees Chris post again, please don't respond. Just ignore him. We all know that JavaRanch is a Good Thing (TM) - don't let him ruin it! Paul & everyone else who does good work around here - just go about your business and let your work speak for itself.
 
R K Singh
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Originally posted by Jamie Robertson:
I'm thinking of starting a forum on COBOL programming. :roll:


Once I went to seminar on Linux.
There first guy came and told us abt Linux and after that there was presentation on Linux.
He switched to Windows to show slides prepared in Power Point.
Everyone was surprised and some were laughing too.
It's also true you can not give presentaion on command mode OS Or it will be VERY difficult.
But if there is GUI OS and you support it then you must go for it for everything.
Yes some paths are difficult.
 
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Building a Better World in your Backyard by Paul Wheaton and Shawn Klassen-Koop
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