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Complaining about how Jews spend their money brings us to an ugly conclusion. I just cannot find the words.
Aversion to coalition forces on Muslim sacred ground ( SA ) is just hides the real political ageneda of those who want control of the oil wealth. If the Saudi's want to change their political system, could they spring forth a Gandhi?
[ August 28, 2002: Message edited by: Rufus Bugleweed ]
 
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Originally posted by Jason Menard:
... to take actions that are in Israel's best interests.


... are they also in U$ best interest?
 
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Originally posted by some anonymous pansy:

... are they also in U$ best interest?


Most assuredly yes.
 
Jason Menard
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Originally posted by some anonymous pansy:
Who has placed their milatry in Saudi Arabia.


Ummm.... SA requested we place our military there. It was in their interest, our interest, and the world's interest. Remember, the US prevented SA from being annexed by Iraq ala Kuwait.
Everybody seems to be forgetting what the consequences of violating cease fire agreements are. Traditionally when cease fire agreements are ignored, the result is a resumption of hostilities.
[ August 28, 2002: Message edited by: Jason Menard ]
 
Rufus BugleWeed
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I think there is a side issue here that has is taken for granted or forgotten. US support of Isreal is in small part about Zionism. US has created checks and balances across the Suez canal.
There's long precedent that the seas shall be open for sailing for all.
 
Anonymous
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Why did u call me pansy?
I take no offence since unlike u I do not discriminate people for their sexual orientation.
 
Rufus BugleWeed
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We deeply regret our inability to control our temper over the issue of your refusal to register an identity. Please accept our humble apologies.
Could you make a point other than it's our instruction from Allah that we are to kill, conquer, or subjugate infidels?
 
Jason Menard
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What does being a pansy have to do with sexual orientation? I mean pansy as in coward, as in being afraid to have your opinions associated with your name. You should know by now that much abuse is often heaped upon people who choose to hide behind anonymity when discussing controversial topics with the majority of us who are not afraid to be associated with our views. This has been discussed and documented in several past threads already.
Why is this done? Often because of the manner in which anonymous posters choose to conduct themselves in such topics. Personally, since anybody can post under any anonymous pseudonym (like I could post as <anonymous> if I wanted), I generally treat such posters as non-entities when I interact with them.
The best solution to ensure a civilized discussion and so that you are treated with the respect you feel you should be, is to use the registered name you normally use in JavaRanch. On the off chance that you have never posted here before, register a name so we know who we are talking to.
I have no problem with people who share your views even if I don't agree with them. There would be no need to hold such discussions if we all agreed, which would make things kinda boring. So please register then come back and talk and we can all play nice.
[ August 28, 2002: Message edited by: Jason Menard ]
 
Anonymous
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Jason, I am curious where do you work? What kind of job will allow you to post here that much? You ever do any actual work during the day?
No wonder they choose H1-Bs over Americans
 
Rufus BugleWeed
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Maybe he made so much money as a capitalist he can fly balloons around the world again and again.
Only he seeks to educate miserable snipers like you.
It's none of your business how he spends his time.
There's a guy in the jobs discussion forum that would like a word with you, pansy.
[ August 28, 2002: Message edited by: Rufus Bugleweed ]
 
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Originally posted by <Curious George>:
Jason, I am curious where do you work? What kind of job will allow you to post here that much? You ever do any actual work during the day?
No wonder they choose H1-Bs over Americans


Have you seen Cindy Glass's totals???
Jason is a Greenhorn compared to her!
 
Anonymous
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Originally posted by Rufus Bugleweed:
We deeply regret our inability to control our temper over the issue of your refusal to register an identity. Please accept our humble apologies.


Apologies accepted, Jason.
 
Anonymous
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Originally posted by Jason Menard:

Because they are the only democratic regime in that part of the world and they also share our basic values and belief structures. In addition, there is a larger Jewish population (and a very politically organized one) in the US than there is in Israel. The Jewish lobby in this country is very powerful and is supported by a very powerful Christian lobby, and they of course lobby the government to take actions that are in Israel's best interests. The vast majority of American citizens seems to support this.


That is what I say, since there are lots of jews in america, america support israil with arms and money. America dosent care whether israil is right or wrong, they just supply arms to kill innocent plaseteninas.
You guys have been talking about the innocents got killed in 9-11. Are the people of palesten who are getting killed by israil soldiers powered by american guns and bullets not innocent.
 
Jason Menard
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Originally posted by <Mr. Pansy>:

Apologies accepted, Jason.


Mr. Pansy, that was Rufus, not me. Hence the "Originally posted by Rufus Bugleweed", as opposed to "Originally posted by Jason Menard". Keep using these forums, you'll get the hang of them. :roll:
 
Anonymous
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Originally posted by Jason Menard:

Mr. Pansy, that was Rufus, not me.


Yep, Rufus, you're right.
It was not u, it was Jason.
 
Jason Menard
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Originally posted by some anonymous coward:
That is what I say, since there are lots of jews in america, america support israil with arms and money.


You are oversimplifying. The emphasis should be on them beingvthe only democracy out that way and more importantly sharing our values. I can't speak for everyone, but I believe most Americans find it easier to identify with Israel, and they seem to have much in common with us in many respects.

America dosent care whether israil is right or wrong, they just supply arms to kill innocent plaseteninas.


Actually we supply them arms so they can protect themselves from millions of people inside Israel and in neighboring countries who want to wipe them from the map. As far as being right or wrong, most of us identify with their legitimate campaign to eradicate terrorism and we support it.

Are the people of palesten who are getting killed by israil soldiers powered by american guns and bullets not innocent.


Many who are killed are innocent, most who are killed are not. What about the innocent Israeli's being deliberately slaughtered by the Palestinians? Do you give them a second thought? Oh let me guess, there are no innocent Israelis. Or, maybe you believe that targetting women and children are legitimate tools of the so-called "resistance". :roll:
This is way off topic and has been covered in-depth in past threads, which are invariably closed soon after the arrival of the anonymous cowards. I respectfully request you to keep on-topic. I don't see us breaking any new ground on this topic, and near as I can tell, this has little to do with Iraq (the topic of the thread, remember?). It would be nice for once to have one of these threads die a natural death.
 
Anonymous
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Yep Jason, I agree....I agree that we both will not agree upon each other...this is a dead lock situation...there is no end..it is meaningless to discuss on such sensitive issues.
How great this world would be if people stop killing each other.
But that is something more theoretical than in practice.
OK, let us talk something else. Which car do u have.I personally like Oldsmobil Ctulass Ciera. What do u say.
 
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Great a middle east topic!
May I take part?
Posted By Rufus


Saddam could be spending the wealth of his nation fighting aids, cancer, raising the standard of living for Palestinians.
Looks to me like he'd rather dominate the gulf.
The US has given up it's colonialist ways.


We could return the question to US. Looks to me like the US wants to dominate the gulf. Are we talking about Pax-Americana?? Do you wonder why?
Because US is acting like they world is under their law, maybe Bush feels himself like Caesar


We don't want any war. We've been waiting patiently for the last ten years for somebody to quietly put a pistol to Saddam's temple and blow his brains all over the pillow.
We'll give a new despot a longer leash.


US and UK is bombing quite everyday Iraq, is it what you call "not wanting any war, waiting patiently"? I think that the long-suffering are the Iraqui people. US don't want any war but they are involved in more wars than any other country, in the past century.
At least you recognize that Saddam is US-made Despote, if you takes-off his clothes you may see "Made in US"


Could you make a point other than it's our instruction from Allah that we are to kill, conquer, or subjugate infidels?


Huh What are you talking about?
 
Younes Essouabni
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Posted by Randall Twede


responding to the original post, i read this today.
If invoked, the War Powers Act, passed in 1973 late in the Vietnam War, would prohibit the president from waging war for more than 60 days without congressional approval or a declaration of war by Congress.


If US declares war to Iraq, it will last more than 60 days. Doesn't it makes Bush need a congress authorization?
 
Younes Essouabni
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Posted by Jason Menard


While it is true that polls are only of limited value, there is a bit of a difference between an informal internet poll and a scientific poll conducted by an internationally respected organization such as Gallup. ...


By those hard times, it appears that a lot of respectable organization were just not respectable.
 
Jason Menard
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Originally posted by <Mr. Pansy>:
Yep, Rufus, you're right.
It was not u, it was Jason.


Add another name to the list of people I've been accused of being (or they me) at various times. :roll:
  • Thomas Paul
  • Jim Yingst
  • Michael Ernest
  • Several anonymous posters
  • Rufus Bugleweed
  • Shura thinks I'm a secret agent or something


  • [ August 29, 2002: Message edited by: Jason Menard ]
 
Rufus BugleWeed
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Hey, stick to the thread or start a new one.
[ August 29, 2002: Message edited by: Rufus Bugleweed ]
 
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I would say, It's OIL stupid!
Just see what happens after 30-40 years when their oil reserves get exhusted.
Basically, nobody gives a damn about the middle east or the gulf or Iran/Iraq/SA etc. They are important because only they have oil.
Unfortunately, these people are using their oil money in stupid jihad and what not, instead of uplifting their people. So rest of the world basically needs to contain/bear them for some decades. Once oil is over, so will be the money and they'll be back to where they were...a desert.
 
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o.k. once again, just as relax myself from filling out that phreaky job posting online formulars with still having a job:
points of view:
1. Palestinean conflict is used by authoritarian arabic nations to cover internal conflicts, to create unity where there is no unity. They dont help the palestineans, they use them.
2. There is a palestina-problem. Imagine you all day have to suffer body-controls. There are people with political power in israel, who want all the land. There were and are policies of expulsion.
3. violence does not help.
4. USA, as all "imperialistic" nations in history are dependant on local allies. Often these local allies use the americans for their own interests (as Osama bin Laden 10 years ago)
5. the primary goal of USA is a security issue and not an economical issue. Of course securing oil supply is part of the western security agenda. But: Do you think oil is under market value? No it is not. There is an OPEC cartel which keeps prices up. Also there are huge taxes on gasoline (in Europe more than in USA). If cheap oil would be such an issue there would be no taxes.
 
Tracy Woo
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Originally posted by Axel Janssen:
5. the primary goal of USA is a security issue and not an economical issue. Of course securing oil supply is part of the western security agenda. But: Do you think oil is under market value? No it is not. There is an OPEC cartel which keeps prices up. Also there are huge taxes on gasoline (in Europe more than in USA). If cheap oil would be such an issue there would be no taxes.


Security has become a primary issue NOW. But I think this issue is actually a by product of the Oil issue. However, it has become so big now that the original issue seems nothing. Do you think there was such a big security issue 15-20 years ago?
Pricing of Oil is a different issue (and is less of an issue actually) than having a steady supply of oil.
 
Axel Janssen
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Yes. Of course. Steep rises in oil prices leads to world economic downturn in the medium run.
For many countries it seems to create problems, when they are situated in a prominent geostrategic position (Cuba is another example). They attract other interests and they do not find a stable, democratic internal balance.
{
Cold war Germany, where I grew up, was different. We (the west) had no problems being frontier state between the blocks. Perhaps because we saw USA not as an enemy, but as an ally.
}
 
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Originally posted by Jason Menard:
Shura thinks I'm a secret agent or something


Can I simply call you J?

Aexl Janssen: the primary goal of USA is a security issue and not an economical issue
I fundamentally disagree. Money is the only issue; although those in power want security for stability (instability leads to loosing profits and power), still main drivers are money and power. BS-ing people about "security" as in "no explosions, planes do not fall off the sky, etc." is a nessesity, not main agenda.
Shura
[ August 30, 2002: Message edited by: Shura Balaganov ]
 
Jason Menard
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Originally posted by Shura Balaganov:
I fundamentally disagree. Money is the only issue


Sorry Shura, you are off on that one.
Oil is security. Natural resources vital to nations have often served as the catalyst of wars. It is often mentioned that a key factor in Japans's attack against the US in WW2 was the US slapping Japan with an embargo on steel, scrap iron, and aviation fuel.
Oil is the life blood of civilization today. Aside from it being essential to fuel our societies, it also has massive impact on our economies. If something goes drastically wrong with the oil market, economies all over the world are going to be seriously affected.
Any nation which sees a threat to its oil supply will take some form of action to defend itself. This is the reason we wen to Saudia Arabia in 1990. Those few misguided individuals back then who were shouting about us being over there because of money lining the pockets of oil companies, and about not wanting to fight "Exxon's war" were unbelievably naive at best, totaly failing to recognize the reality of the situation and the threat.
[ August 30, 2002: Message edited by: Jason Menard ]
 
Shura Balaganov
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Jason, I was ectually equating money with oil here, and security with "life security", rather than "oil security". So you are supporting my point exactly. Obviously, natural resourses are vital, and US wants at any cost to control that "Bermuda" 40th-parallel oil triangle. That's one of the biggest reasons, I think, why they support Israel...
Which brings me to an interesting question. Are we agreeing on fact that 1990 was "oil war"? This can be a step towards bringing Berlin wall down...
Shura
[ August 30, 2002: Message edited by: Shura Balaganov ]
 
Rufus BugleWeed
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1990 war was about oil.
1990 war was about keeping oil producing competitors competing.
1990 war was about the sovereignty of nations.
When the big bear descended on Afghinistan, we were concerned about the sovereignty of nations.
We'd like to run a pipeline through Afghanistan.
How many times has Afghanistan been conquered?
Shura Daddy driving a BMW needs gasoline.
[ August 30, 2002: Message edited by: Rufus Bugleweed ]
 
Jason Menard
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Originally posted by Shura Balaganov:
Jason, I was ectually equating money with oil here, and security with "life security", rather than "oil security".


In order for a nation be "secure", it must have physical security for its citizens, security for its economy, security for its infrastructure, and security for its natural resources. All these things are intertwined, with each one affecting all the others. A lack of security for one part, is damaging to all the other parts.
So you cannot look at oil as simply "money", nor can you merely talk of security in terms of "life security". Putting any one of these facets of security in danger is a situation that no people or their government can stand for.
So of course the Gulf War was an "oil war" predominantly. It had nothing whatsoever to do with us wanting to "control" anything. If we really wanted to control anything, we could. It was about ensuring that the world's source of oil would not be held ransom. While this would have hurt Europe and other parts of the world much more than us, instability in Europe (political or economical) and other parts of the world was also something we could not stand for to result from Iraq's aggression.

The point is, just because a war may be predominantly over oil, doesn't mean it is any less necessary.
 
Shura Balaganov
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Originally posted by Rufus Bugleweed:
We'd like to run a pipeline through Afghanistan.
...
Shura Daddy driving a BMW needs gasoline.


Run pipeline from where to where?
I could ride my bike to work, its only 15 miles away, but that will look funny on interstate, I think... People with SUVs that don't get 20mpg should be shot - now that will fix oil problem
Shura
 
Rufus BugleWeed
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Pipe line business comes out of your commondreams
hotlink

A. Follow the money. Various oil/gas/energy companies had wanted a Central Asian pipeline to run through Afghanistan


Have you noticed the results of Bush's mastery of gun-boat-diplomacy?
I saw Turdgeek Asseeze ( sic ) on the TV this morning. "Hey, I duh kno why the weapons inspectors left four years ago anyway! Come on back, under our specifications. Attacking a back water country like ours is a violation of international law."
[ September 03, 2002: Message edited by: Rufus Bugleweed ]
 
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