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Its Oil !!!

 
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Can't agree more, Tracy!
Its oil too!
 
"The Hood"
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The original implication seemed to be that there was something wrong with wanting to buy oil from these countries.
Yes the US wants oil. This is a GOOD thing for both countries. The US gets the oil that it needs, the selling country gets some of the money that the US has.
It seems to me to be sort of silly to try to destroy the largest customer for you major product to sell :roll: .
Just because the US want to do business buying oil, does not make it evil. However many of the above posts make the illogical leap from "the US wants to buy oil" therefore "the US must have committed war crimes that it should be punished for".
That sort of logic will not get a person very far in the computer industry :roll: .
 
Ashok Mash
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Originally posted by Cindy Glass:
Yes the US wants oil. This is a GOOD thing for both countries. The US gets the oil that it needs, the selling country gets some of the money that the US has.


Microsoft wants money. Its a GOOD thing for both Microsoft and the customer if MS includes IE with their OS. MS gets more money as they want, and customer gets additional value for his/her moeny!
So as we all know, its about monopoly and its about how one reached the top spot!
Its not about the USA being a rich super-customer, but its about how USA reached there. Of course with lot of hardwork and talent. But do you think its some 'brotherly love' that makes OPEC nations supply oil cheap to the USA and sell it at a much higher for rest of the world?
Isn't it just plain fact that gas is cheap is the USA because of the successful (yes!) government strategies for last 30-40 years? Well, that is the good part, but the middle-east based Islamic militancy is a disastrous side effect of those 'successful' international policies!
Two sides of a coin!
[ September 20, 2002: Message edited by: Ashok Manayangath ]
 
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Oil is cheaper in the US for a few reasons. For one thing, we still produce some of our own oil. We have the capability to produce much more, but right now it is cheaper for us to import oil than it would be for us to produce our own. Secondly, unlike Europe, we are not as dependant on OPEC oil. We get a large percentage of our oil from non-OPEC nations. Additionally, we have a more capable infrastructure, and this has the effect of reducing transportation costs. We can also refine oil to an extent not possible in Europe.
OPEC, Oil, and Energy Economics 101
 
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NO!!! Gasoline is cheaper in the US because we don't put $4 plus dollar a gallon taxes on it.
 
Jason Menard
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Originally posted by Ashok Manayangath:
Isn't it just plain fact that gas is cheap is the USA because of the successful (yes!) government strategies for last 30-40 years? Well, that is the good part, but the middle-east based Islamic militancy is a disastrous side effect of those 'successful' international policies!


Okay, so now the US is responsible for Islamic militancy... and the reason is because we buy some oil from the Middle East? Right... I'm sure of course you can provide some evidence of this? Of course you can't back this up. You people make these ridiculous claims that have no basis in fact and refuse to provide even the smallest hint of factual evidence to lend even the tiniest bit of credibility to your statements.
Heaven forbid that possible explanations for the rise of Islamic militancy possibly include the policies of the governments of the region, the cultures of the region, or (gasp, shudder) maybe even something in the religion itself that people misinterpret. No, those certainly can't be relevant factors or possible explanations. It's far more likely that Islamic militancy is solely a byproduct of US policies.
[ September 20, 2002: Message edited by: Jason Menard ]
 
Jason Menard
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Originally posted by Paul Stevens:
NO!!! Gasoline is cheaper in the US because we don't put $4 plus dollar a gallon taxes on it.


Oh yeah, there are the taxes too! Got so wrapped up in the other stuff I forgot that!
 
Cindy Glass
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Originally posted by Ashok Manayangath:
Microsoft wants money. Its a GOOD thing for both Microsoft and the customer if MS includes IE with their OS. MS gets more money as they want, and customer gets additional value for his/her moeny!


Are you comparing the Middle East countries with Microsoft ? Yes they both have something that we want to buy. Yes, they are both selling something and trying to get the most money that they can for it.
The Middle East does not have QUITE as strong a monopoly on oil as MicroSoft does on Desktop Products, but you can see how we feel about Microsoft .
[ September 20, 2002: Message edited by: Cindy Glass ]
 
Cindy Glass
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PS - even given the way that we feel about MicroSoft - no one in the US would kill people over it :roll: .
 
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US like ANY country is not fighting a moral war nor it has a superior morality.
US is just defending its own interests, as ANY country.
I think anybody can accept this statement.
If US -like ANY country- has to decide between its own interests and the interests of other countries then US government will surely choose to defend its own interests, even though they are going to harm somebody.
This behaviour is not bound to US but I repeat, to ANY country.
US interests include the possibility to have a reliable access to cheap energy.
It is very plain and natural to me.
 
Ashok Mash
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Good one Cindy. But I know that you understand what I meant there. I was talking about US monopoly in the market, and yes, customer is the king!
Jason, I agree I do not have any sort of proof or links to live documents to state the fact that I said up there - but that was my opinion, based on the news item I have been reading, watching etc etc. Its just history, AS I LEARNED, made me comment so. That could be wrong, but I am entitled to my opinion, until unless proven otherwise!
I have been following all the posts, arguments and counter arguments in here, and elsewhere, but I should tell you, so far, no one was bold enough to say that 'America is being hated by a majority of the world is ONLY because of jealousy and Islamic fanatism'. That was my only point.
I have said this before ? Taliban, Saddam Hussain and a bunch other serious issues that we have today is there because of some shortsighted foreign policies of respective US Governments. Other countries do have a share in starting/continuing this foul scene, and I am NOT denying that.
Unfortunately this is not just about the past. Even today mistakes being made by US government (and others), and that might cost America and rest of the world even more later. Its terribly sad, and that why I am whining about it.
And to Thomas, I could be wrong about the oil prices part, and I am sorry for that. It is a common belief else where in the world that USA is getting cheap petrol from OPEC, and I do not know how true it is, but its quite a possibility, I should say
I know I will get stoned to death (well, posted to death ) here for writing this, but this is my honest opinion.
 
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Originally posted by Ashok Manayangath:
I was talking about US monopoly in the market, and yes, customer is the king!
...
It is a common belief else where in the world that USA is getting cheap petrol from OPEC, ...


Of course we are!!! In your second sentence you explained it yourself. Although I think that only sellers can have a monopoly in a market, I understand what you are saying. You're right, we buy more than anyone else so why shouldn't we get a better price?!? It's common in business to give your best customers the best prices so why are you surprised that it applies here? Despite the scale and the players, it is just business.
 
Cindy Glass
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Are you saying that the US has a monopoly as a BUYER? That is not even CLOSE to true.
Better not say that too close to Canada. They want their share of oil too :roll: .
 
Jason Menard
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Originally posted by Ashok Manayangath:
Taliban, Saddam Hussain and a bunch other serious issues that we have today is there because of some shortsighted foreign policies of respective US Governments.


The Taliban was not in power due to the US! The supporters of the Taliban's rise were Pakistan and Saudi Arabia (also the only two nations to recognize the legitimacy of the Taliban). The Taliban was never funded by the US. But this has all been stated repeatedly.
Now we can be accused of standing by while the Taliban reign of terror enveloped Afghanistan. It is also true that we applauded some of the Taliban regime's policies, specifically their policies to stem the flow of narcotics to the world. But that's pretty much it, and it sure doesn't mean our policies gave rise to them.
http://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel/howthe.htm
 
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Originally posted by Asif Abbasi:

The facts of these kinds [the fact that since 1979 the US has provided more humanitarian aid to the Afghan people than any other country ] will always be reported in United States because it shows the real hypocrisy of United States. Was this fact ever widely reported how many innocent people were killed in Afghanistan ?? probably not.
Asif Abbasi


Since September 11 the United States has viewed the Afghan people as our allies in the effort to remove the Taliban and Bin Laden from power. For that reason, the United States did everything possible to avoid the death of innocent people. Each time a bomb fell on the wrong location, it was widely reported here in the United States and each time the death of innocent people has been viewed as a tragedy.
You have suggested that the United States is responsible for reducing the Afghan cities to rubble but that is not true. The Afghan cities were reduced to rubble by the civil war that brought the Taliban and Al Queda to power. The United States did not participate in that conflict. Are these facts reported differently in your area? If you feel that you are able to refute these facts then I welcome you to do so.
 
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I find it interesting that people who hate MS for trying to "protect" its iterests, vociforusouly support US's policies that also amount to protecting US's interest. I think, US does go out of its way to make sure its Oil interests are met. And people (including myself) have no problem with that. However, many of those people (excluding myself) curse MS like hell when MS does the same thing :roll:
 
Ashok Mash
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Sorry for confusing you all with me incompetent English.
Yes to simply what I was trying to say was, the USA has an advantage over other countries in the oil prices, because as of today it has great bargaining power with its troops stationed every free inch of Middle-East (exaggeration, of course)!
Now before you yell at me, I did not mean US threatening all the OPEC nations with their force! No No NO! It is like this. Because of all the help US has done to Kuwait (and OPEC), they are actually obliged to sell oil for less to America. After all Americans saved Kuwait from Saddam's atrocities in early 90s. But now when you relate things, isn't that some of the American military and intelligence activities in that region, for some other reasons made Saddam a monster since in 80s?
I am sure its not a decade long conspiracy planned and executed by American administrations etc. That could be purely coincidental that America first 'made up' or 'helped the growth of' a monster for some reason, abandoned him 'after use', and then at a later stage helped others who was frightened by that 'monster on loose'! In the whole situation, America had only benefits. That 'only' in the previous sentence is questionable; so let me change it to 'mostly'.
But the fact remains that there were such monsters left unattended, after the actual purpose, (which was short-sighted), and they continue causing troubles regionally. At times Americans came back and attended to it, for humanitarian purposes may be, for money mostly, some time they even act pre-emptively (like present movement against Iraq). But at times those monsters do deeds above White House's imagination, and hence Sep 11th!!
My conspiracy theory complete!
 
Ashok Mash
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Originally posted by Jason Menard:

The Taliban was never funded by the US. But this has all been stated repeatedly.


I know this posting like this is silly, but a quick one. And oh, a repeated one too.
From BBC:
[QI]The Afghan jihad was backed with American dollars and had the blessing of the governments of Saudi Arabia and Pakistan.
He received security training from the CIA itself, according to Middle Eastern analyst Hazhir Teimourian. [/QI]
Here are the links:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/south_asia/155236.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/south_asia/144382.stm
PS: I am trying to fix a silly QI/QI :roll: Its Friday evening for me (GMT) and I guess thats why!
[ September 20, 2002: Message edited by: Ashok Manayangath ]
 
mister krabs
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Originally posted by Ashok Manayangath:
The Afghan jihad was backed with American dollars and had the blessing of the governments of Saudi Arabia and Pakistan.

Did you read the article? The Afghan jihad they are referring to is the war agianst the Soviets. bin Laden did receive US support through pakistan but he was not a member of the taliban which was the original question.
 
Thomas Paul
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The reason oil is cheap in the US is because 1) we have oil reserves in this country. We even export oil to japan. 2) taxes on oil are much, much lower than Europe or Canada.
 
Ashok Mash
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Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
Did you read the article? The Afghan jihad they are referring to is the war agianst the Soviets. bin Laden did receive US support through pakistan but he was not a member of the taliban which was the original question.


I did read both the articles. And I see your point.
But its not too hard to understand that the people who received money/arms/training from the USA, thru Pakistan, to fight against Russians, and Talibans who took over Afghanistan are the same, is it?
 
Ashok Mash
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And before I call it a day, let me share this write up on Afghanistan's history. This is from LonleyPlanet.
http://www.lonelyplanet.com/destinations/middle_east/afghanistan/history.htm
That should give you some insight on why Russia was there in Afghanistan on the first place, and how Pakistan benefited from the deal, and how Afghanistan is how it is now.
Happy reading! And great weekend to you all!
 
Dan Chisholm
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In any conflict between nations, cultures, religions, philosophies, or geographic regions there will be at least two sides to the story. Some conflicts appear to be an obvious choice between good and evil and certainly the leaders of each faction will try to frame the conflict as such. In other cases, a reasonable person can sympathize with either side. Here in the United States many Americans sympathize with the Palestinian people yet strongly oppose the Palestinian use of terrorism. Similarly, many Americans sympathize with the Israeli people but question the policies of the Israeli government such as the construction of settlements in the West Bank. Many Americans do not view favorably the results of the Balfour Declaration but feel that both the Palestinians and Israelis need to find a way to work toward peace within the framework of the existing realities.
The foreign policy of any democracy is strongly influenced by those that vote. (I don't want to say that the voters dictate foreign policy because the issue does not always come up in the elections.) Here in the United States, the Jewish population is only about 3% of the total population. However, by far, they are the best organized and the most likely to vote in every election. As a result, the percentage of seats held in Congress by Jewish Americans probably greatly exceeds 3%. In contrast, Arab Americans don't hold any seats in Congress. Some may say that it is unfair, but I say that it is an example of the rewards available to those that work within the democratic system.
I doubt that American reaction to acts of terror by Islamic fundamentalists will be appealing to the Islamic world. However, American reaction to the efforts of Arab and Islamic political activists here in America could produce a major shift in American foreign policy. Muslims are required to donate some percentage of their income to charity and that includes the Saudi Royal Family. Today, many of those charities have been shut down due to suspicions of associations with terrorist organization. Where is that money going today? Why not use the money constructively here in the United States to develop the capability to participate in the democratic process? President Bush won the elections by something like a hundred votes in Florida. Similarly, any minority that cares to get organized and use their power to extract promises from the candidates can determine a close congressional race. Even if Arab Americans represent only 2% of the population in a particular district they can influence the behavior of the candidate if they get organized and vote.
If Arab Americans want to extend their influence to the non-Arab American population then they may do so by getting involved in the educational system. Here in America, there is now a trend to move children from public schools to private schools. If the money that is currently used to support terrorism is diverted to a system of private schools in America then the children that attend those schools might have an opportunity to gain a different view of the issues involving the middle east. (No I am not making a judgment on which view is correct.) If the schools are able to prove their success in low income school districts, then the possibility exists that similar success could be achieved in middle income districts. Once those children reach the age of 18 and register to vote, their impact will be apparent.
Tremendous political benefits could be achieved by getting involved in charity work within American inner cities. Contrary to popular belief, the number of poverty stricken people in America is very high and the US government has been reducing the resources that are made available to the poor. (No, I am not making a judgment against current domestic policy. Instead, I agree that such aid is sometimes better provided by charitable organizations.) If Arab and Islamic leaders would like to generate tremendous political support within our inner cities, then open some homeless shelters, soup kitchens, and day care centers for the children of working parents that can't otherwise afford day care. In return for the humanitarian support you can ask the people to register to vote.
My advice to the Islamic world is as follows. Abandon terrorism and instead invest in democracy, education, and charity. If you want to influence America then just become a part of America and participate constructively in the democratic process. A constructive approach will produce better results.
[ September 20, 2002: Message edited by: Dan Chisholm ]
 
Tracy Woo
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Originally posted by Dan Chisholm:
My advice to the Islamic world is as follows. Abandon terrorism and instead invest in democracy, education, and charity. If you want to influence America then just become a part of America and participate constructively in the democratic process. A constructive approach will produce better results.


And the same advise applies to people who are in mideast or in any place for that matter. ( No, I am not saying give up Islam and take Christianity ) But investing in schools that teach modern science rather than in regious schools that promote a very skewed view of the world, improving condition of the women, and most importantly thinking open and forward. These are precisely the things that have made US what it is today.
 
Dan Chisholm
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Originally posted by Tracy Woo:

And the same advise applies to people who are in mideast or in any place for that matter. ( No, I am not saying give up Islam and take Christianity ) But investing in schools that teach modern science rather than in regious schools that promote a very skewed view of the world, improving condition of the women, and most importantly thinking open and forward. These are precisely the things that have made US what it is today.


I agree completely.
 
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If the money that is currently used to support terrorism is diverted to a system of private schools in America then the children that attend those schools might have an opportunity to gain a different view of the issues involving the middle east.


Who you saying supports terrorism? I don't think anybody is going to admit their funds are going for that.
 
Jason Menard
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Great post Dan. Well said.
 
Dan Chisholm
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Originally posted by Rufus BugleWeed:

Who you saying supports terrorism? I don't think anybody is going to admit their funds are going for that.


You are entirely correct. None of those organizations have admitted any associations with terrorism. Even so, the justice department has shut them down and impounded their funds. Are you saying that you are unaware of this?
Don't take my earlier post too seriously. I'm not going to hold my breath waiting for an organized effort to use our democratic systems to influence peaceful change. My intent was to simply point out that a peaceful approach would be far more successful than any attempt to use terrorism to influence our foreign policy. Even so, I don't believe that peace will be attempted.
The United States military is more powerful than the next 20 nations combined. Without question, such a nation will not be changed by force until its military options are exhausted. Does anybody on this earth want to experience that process? I certainly don't. Maybe force is not the best tool to apply to the task of changing American policy. Maybe it would make more sense to simply participate in the American political system since it is open to any person or organization that wants to be involved. Yes, success in our politcal system requires money, but that's a resource that is pumped out of the ground in the Gulf. That was my point.
 
Dan Chisholm
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Originally posted by Jason Menard:
Great post Dan. Well said.


Thank you.
 
Jason Menard
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There are US based Islamic charity organizations that are supporting terrorism as surely as there were at one time US based Irish charity organizations supporting terrorism. Of course they're not going to admit publicly what they are funding, but that doesn't stop our government from figuring it out. Money leaves a trail that probably isn't all that hard to follow.
The US government organization responsible for handling these matters is called the Office of Foreign Assets Control (OFAC), part of the US treasury. I attended to a talk given by a representative from this office in a class I took once... Interesting stuff.
[ September 20, 2002: Message edited by: Jason Menard ]
 
Dan Chisholm
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Jason,
Your link and the amount of work being done by the Office of Foreign Asset Control is an indication of the enormous amount of money that is spent every year to support terrorist activities that are intended to modify the behavior of the United States. It is truly amazing that these people haven't realized that they could get far better results by working through Arab American organizations to influence our political system through peaceful and productive action. Of course, the reason for this failure is the fact that terrorists are not interested in promoting the use of the democratic processes that are available.
 
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And yet again what a surprise.
Someone starts a thread about Taliban and 9/11 and what do you know we re-hash the same old arguements over and over, end up insulting eachother and generally getting very frustrated.
WHy this thread wasn't deleted / locked way befor it got to 70- posts I do not know but I'm going to lock it now, because I seem to remember there being a little phrase something like
"A FRIENDLY place" being associated with Javaranch.
If another Sheriff disagrees with me, then please use your discretion and reopen the thread if you like!
 
Ashok Mash
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One last post before Angela locks this thread!
I totally agree with Dan.
Ashok.
PS: May be Angela didn't get a chance to go through all 70 posts above! As far as I see it, there were no 'personal-attacks' or 'egoistic' posts in this thread, so far [in this page]!! :roll: Anyway, its far from meaningless and so qualifies to be locked!
PPS: Edited the post to add "[in this page]", because I just realised that there were some not-so-friendly posts in Page 1
[ September 23, 2002: Message edited by: Ashok Manayangath ]
 
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