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George Bush again

 
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Originally posted by Lalooprasad Yadav:
The question asked was. When you say "Americans" does it mean african americans , asian americans native americans or just european americans ?


I recently read a little about how categories work in human brains. There is often (not always) such thing as "prototype", or call it "default specimen", for a category. For example, when somebody says "bird!", humans normally think about something like a robin. Not penguin and not ostrich. Likewise, "American" will most likely evoke an image of a white male, born in America, whose ancestors are predominantly of European origin. I do not think, there is anything "political" here, and in general, there is little political in "political" talk of a layman.
-----------------------
"what happend to us..."
Ravish Kumar
 
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Originally posted by Cindy Glass:
Balaji,
I thought that it was funny, even though I knew that he didn't REALLY say all that stuff.
And I am a supporter of his. Frankly I really admire the man - even if he sometimes gets tangled up in the words .
Why does a man have to be "perfect" to be a great leader? He is certainly the best leader for the US right now - even if he is human.


I don't why your reply and map first reply is so convincing to me,is that because your are females ... if tom and jason would have replyed like this then i would have felt my mistake(if it is so)
I promise, i didn't tried to criticise bush, and thats why I named the thread subject as "George bush again" with reference to this
Bush-Condi thread. You all know that we have ranchers from china as well, they took it as joke because it is also JOKE.
this thread unnecessarily went serious.
 
Mapraputa Is
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Originally posted by Balaji Loganathan:

I don't why your reply and map first reply is so convincing to me,is that because your are females


No, no! Only because we are so smart!
 
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Originally posted by Mapraputa Is:

No, no! Only because we are so smart!


Oh! Then, does that also mean that Jason and Thomas are not smart?
 
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Originally posted by R Manivannan:

Oh! Then, does that also mean that Jason and Thomas are not smart?


Aern't you the guy who insisted that Grecian was not used correctly?
 
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Jason Menard
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Originally posted by Sankar Subbiah:
He effectively said "This is a spam, dont post it here"


No, he didn't. He suggested that somebody try to establish the veracity of something before attempting to pass it off as fact.
 
Jason Menard
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Originally posted by Ravish Kumar:
It depends on the joke.


Put it this way, if Cindy or Thomas had posted it, it would have been funny (of course they are smart enough to have checked the veracity first). If you, Pakka Desi, Sanka Subbiah, or other people here who have demonstrated their anti-American tendencies post it, it's not funny. Can you possibly comprehend the difference?

I am leaving .


Stop getting my hopes up like that.
 
Mani Ram
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Originally posted by Jason Menard:

Aern't you the guy who insisted that Grecian was not used correctly?


No. I said Grecians is wrong. I never said Grecian is wrong!
Anyhow, why this question?
[ December 24, 2002: Message edited by: R Manivannan ]
 
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Originally posted by Jason Menard:

If you, Pakka Desi, Sanka Subbiah, or other people here who have demonstrated their anti-American tendencies post it, it's not funny.


Did you check your facts before posting this? I am not anti-american. Just because I oppose the POV of some americans, I become anti-american? Probably you and Thomas are anti-world (of course, except USA) then.
 
Mapraputa Is
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Originally posted by R Manivannan:
Oh! Then, does that also mean that Jason and Thomas are not smart?


Well, can I at least try to suggest so?
---------------------
"I'm pro human, whatever it means. Just trying to wish for something that does not exist."
Alex Ayzin
 
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Originally posted by Jason Menard:

Yourself and the others have made your attitudes towards us clear in this thread and in previous threads, so quite frankly I'm not seeing anything new or unexpected.


If my memory serves me right, you started all this. The only difference now is that you are on the defensive most of time (remember your attempt to share the patent on ones and zeroes with the Indians? ) . Most of these people are not anti American. They are just expressing a political opinion. If some Indian criticises Hugo Chavez it should not be construed as an anti Venezuelan feeling among Indians in general. As Donne said "No man is an island, entire of itself. Any man's death diminishes me, Because I am involved in mankind" people tend to have opinions on political developments that do not affect them directly. Perhaps what you see here as anti American feelings is merely an anti Jason Menard , anti Thomas Paul thing. Many of the people who post messages here which you misinterpret as anti American have a lot of American friends. Some of them are related to Americans. Or they could be Americans posting with Indian sounding names (with the sole intention of annoying you) . If the rest of you don't consider it presumptuous I shall speak on behalf of all the Indians here. We are not interested in bashing the US our only interest is the suppression of the Jason Menards and the Thomas Pauls. What America needs is fewer and better Jason Menards. I wish you a Merry Christmas Jason and hope we will hear less from you in the coming year.
[ December 24, 2002: Message edited by: Lalooprasad Yadav ]
 
Jason Menard
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Originally posted by Lalooprasad Yadav:
If my memory serves me right, you started all this.


Your memory does not serve you correctly I'm afraid.

The only difference now is that you are on the defensive most of time


I am?

(remember your attempt to share the patent on ones and zeroes with the Indians?


No, but I do remember ridiculing one of you for going on about the great inventor of zero. What I said at the time was:

And congratulations to that mathemetician for discovering zero. Do you think the Italians still brag about inventing the western alphabet? Or do you think that they realized that after so many thousands of years or whatever that no one is impressed anymore?


Perhaps what you see here as anti American feelings is merely an anti Jason Menard , anti Thomas Paul thing.


Perhaps. Anything is possible. However once you establish a trend.... Let's look at yourself as an example. Anonymous postings baiting us last year and multiple personalities (one a Russian if I recall) used for the same purposes. But once you started posting with a this particular name let's take a look at what you said:

Originally posted by Lalooprasad Yadav
I am just anti-american, not pro-taliban.
...
I wasn't anti-american until I cam here and was turned into an US baiter by the javaranch americans.


Your words speak for themselves, as have the words of others.

We are not interested in bashing the US


I have already shown this to be false.

our only interest is the suppression of the Jason Menards and the Thomas Pauls.


Yeah, the truth hurts, doesn't it?

What America needs is fewer and better Jason Menards.


So one Super Jason will do then?

I wish you a Merry Christmas Jason and hope we will hear less from you in the coming year.


Why? Are you going somewhere?
[ December 25, 2002: Message edited by: Jason Menard ]
 
Mapraputa Is
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Jason, do you really believe in all you said, or you made a rule to fight back every time you feel provoked, without too much thinking? Now Laloo is anti-American? You are surrounded by enemies, aren't you? In case you are interested, I agree with him, so I must be anti-American too.
Let's look at yourself as an example. Anonymous postings baiting us last year and multiple personalities (one a Russian if I recall) used for the same purposes.
He has been doing exactly what you've been doing here: react when he feels provoked. So it's Ok when you are doing it, but is "ANTI-AMERICAN" when anybody else (especially with foreign name) is doing the same?
Today is probably the worst day for this sort of clarifications, but heck, I feel provoked, so I'll do what I feel like doing. And I feel that you and Tom see enemies where there are none. I realize that MD after 9/11 isn't a nice place and reading some posts can set you in certain mode, but maybe it's time to try to shake it off? We had a bunch of idiots here, now they are gone. Why do you need to see rest of MD as enemies?
I am not even sure if you are serious, or you and Tom are just having fun insulting and hurting people
 
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One particular morning I stayed home from wherever I was supposed to be and I noticed a dog barking in another yard. And I mean all day long. It had nothing else to do, and all day to do it.
It wasn't like I never herd it before, but this time it just registered. You can't ever, ever outdo a dog like that.
What you can do is feed it, spend time with it. It'll still bark if go away the rest of the day. But whose fault is that? I'd say the owner who doesn't understand some dogs can't be left alone all day.
Candles, the aromatherapy kind, apparently can have a profound effect on animals. Their sense of smell is so well wired that you can associate certain odors with their sense of companionship over time, and that will help.
And then again: some dogs just love to f***in' bark. Merry Christmas everyone!
 
Mapraputa Is
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Originally posted by Jason Menard:
Originally posted by Lalooprasad Yadav
I am just anti-american, not pro-taliban.
...
I wasn't anti-american until I cam here and was turned into an US baiter by the javaranch americans.



Thank you for the link.
Yet another proof how MD degraded since then.
Something I did not respond timely because I was just *too* mad:
Yes, envy and an inferiority complex can have that effect sometimes.
Jason, have you ever been born not in The Best Country of the World, but in some well... worthless country? There are so many of them on the Globe... Actually, all countries but one. Do you know how it feels? Really? What do you think gives you right to teach people what they should be proud of and what they should be not? Hint: "I am not a liberal" wont work as a carte blanch. Another hint: lack of elementary sympathy wont do it either.
---------------------
"But, to respond to the point you started off with - I agree that Tony and some others have had a tendency to label anyone who disagrees with them as "anti-American", and I certainly disagree with Tony on this in many cases. Overuse of the "anti-American" label comes off as paranoid and reactionary, and undermines our (USA's) relations with the rest of the world."
Jim Yingst
[ December 25, 2002: Message edited by: Mapraputa Is ]
 
Jason Menard
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Originally posted by Mapraputa Is:
Now Laloo is anti-American?


His words not mine.

You are surrounded by enemies, aren't you?


No Map, this is only a discussion forum.

In case you are interested, I agree with him, so I must be anti-American too.


Did I say something to make you think that?

He has been doing exactly what you've been doing here: react when he feels provoked. So it's Ok when you are doing it, but is "ANTI-AMERICAN" when anybody else (especially with foreign name) is doing the same?


It seems that you don't agree with my choice of words. I may have been mistaken, but let's see if we can't try to be more precise. Let's look at the term anti-American. It's rather imprecise actually and means different things to different people. I have seen several attempts at definition on the Internet.
Paul Hollander, professor emeritus of sociology, University of Massachusetts-Amherst defined it as "a historically specific expression of a universal scapegoating impulse, a type of bias similar to racism, sexism and anti-Semitism, and a largely irrational, often visceral aversion to the United States and its government, domestic institutions, prevailing values, culture and people, fueled by a variety of frustrations and grievances." That's sounds pretty good I guess. I'm sure Prof Hollander is a smart man.
The following definition can be found in Webster's Unabridged Dictionary.

Opposed to the Americans, their
aims, or interests, or to the genius of American
institutions.


The American Heritage dictionary has the following definition:

Opposed or hostile to the government, official policies, or people of the United States.


To what extent does any of that apply, if any of it does?
Wiki houses this definition:

Anti-Americanism is strong disapproval or even hatred for the United States of America, its government, people, or its way of life. Such views can be based on any or all of a number of different attitudes, such as political (anti-imperialism), economic (anti-Capitalism), religious (anti-Christian, anti-secular), cultural (anti-Hollywood), or ethical (anti-"Western decadence"). It can be harbored by Americans themselves (who might prefer to use the term Usian) or by non-Americans.


One Internet denizen of no particular importance suggested the following are some of the indicator paramters of anti-Americanism on a particular message board:


1) Reference to past American actions or policies with an implication that Anti-American hate crimes, such as 911, are justified.
2) Claiming or implying a moral (or immoral) equivalence between the inadvertent deaths of Afghani civilians to the murder of innocents (e.g., the 911 barbarity).
3) Attributing OBL and his barbarian murderous ilk with the qualities of "freedom fighters" and "saviors."
4) Proposing an end to the Allied action without offering an alternative means to bring OBL and his ilk to justice or to stop their murderous rampage.
5) Assigning greater credibility to the pronouncements of OBL and his sycophants than to the statements of Allied leaders and representatives.


I'm not sure to what degree I agree with that, but I find it mostly interesting in that these are all things that have been seen here at one time or another.
The lesson you should take from this is that the term is somewhat loosely defined, and in fact means slightly different things to different people. The statement of mine that I believe you take issue with is:
JM: If you, Pakka Desi, Sanka Subbiah, or other people here who have demonstrated their anti-American tendencies post it, it's not funny.
Let mre attempt to re-phrase without changing the meaning:
If you, Pakka Desi, Sanka Subbiah, or other people here who have in the past seemingly demonstrated their anti-American tendencies (as I see it anyway) post it, it's not funny.
It's a little more verbose, but maybe more precise.

Why do you need to see rest of MD as enemies?


For one thing, I didn't realize that four or five guys equals "the rest of MD". Secondly, to see anyone here as an "enemy" is not really possible, at least from where I stand.

I am not even sure if you are serious, or you and Tom are just having fun insulting and hurting people


Yes, we are the ones throwing around insults. Let's ignore your little inuendos and jibes (as I usually do), as well as those of others. But as I said, I'm a big boy and I don't take this stuff too seriously. Similarly, I'm not all that interested in political correctness.
So did I misapply this term anywhere? I will allow for that possibility? Can the above definitions be applied to past behavior? Or is it simply the term that some find objectionable, not that they might hold these attitudes?
If I may quote from Donald "Duck" Dunn in the movie The Blues Brothers: "If the shit fits, wear it."
 
Balaji Loganathan
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--------No Good---------
Shall I delete this thread.
 
Lalooprasad Yadav
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Jason, Jason , Jason,
Where is all that hate coming from ? If I really enjoyed baiting people , I would go to someplace like this
http://www.stormfront.org/forum/forumid9.php
and enquire about the prospects of mongrelising the nation .
But what good will it do ? These people are beyond redemption.
Pardon me for posting this here, but let me quote from something posted by someone called 'Breaker of White Chains'


Hitler was the greatest man in History. His legacy lives on through the awake Aryans who will rise again to give hell to the evil anti-aryans who steal their pride.
SIEG HEIL!


The "they are against us" concept is what really sustains them. I wouldnt use that as a staple diet Jason. If you dont watch it you will soon end up being like them.
P.S. In hindsight some of the things I said in the old post seem to be in bad taste. Hence they have been deleted. Map once referred to this kind of thing as "polishing history"
[ December 25, 2002: Message edited by: Lalooprasad Yadav ]
 
Mapraputa Is
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His words not mine.
Laloo (well, Ok. let's call a blade a blade Sahir) said "I wasn't anti-american until I cam here and was turned into an US baiter by the javaranch americans" -- why do you read only a half of the message?
Did I say something to make you think that?
You did not. Your attacks on other MD participants made me wonder what's the difference between them and me and why wouldn't you attack me with the same vigor.
Let's look at the term anti-American
These definitions are too broad. I think, we need to ask every MD resident to choose which part of these definitions they feel like applicable and which are not. It isn't that easy, sometimes I feel anti-American and sometimes pro-American, depending on the situation.
I'm not sure to what degree I agree with that, but I find it mostly interesting in that these are all things that have been seen here at one time or another.
Well, yes. But these people are gone? Now Sameer Jamal says "Americans are the most confident people in the world" and this is being read as "American are arrogant". Frankly, I did not realize this can be read as an offense, but even after I was explained the reasons... People, if you live in the most powerful country of the world, cannot you feel secure enough to tolerate a little bit more of hostility and to explain your POV with a little more patience? You could lose more than a few enemies that way...
Yes, we are the ones throwing around insults. Let's ignore your little inuendos and jibes (as I usually do), as well as those of others.
If you mean my personal little innuendos and jibes, they are nothing but attempts to avoid an open confrontation, which attempts I was able to suppress until today -- the best day for an open confrontation indeed. :roll: Sorry for that.
But as I said, I'm a big boy and I don't take this stuff too seriously. Similarly, I'm not all that interested in political correctness.
I do not think anybody here cares about PC , but "I'm a big boy" - I am not sure it's a universal thing. If I ever grown up, it's not because I cannot be hurt any more, it's because I learned to forgive quickly, and it's not the same.
So did I misapply this term anywhere?
Oh, I do not know. I hate terms anyway.
I would rather operate in terms of "Pakka Desi", "Sameer Jamal", "Ravish Kumar", "Lalooprasad Yadav", or whatever other names of people I never met, than in terms of "anti-American" whose semantics is so unclear.
[ December 25, 2002: Message edited by: Mapraputa Is ]
 
R K Singh
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Originally posted by Jason Menard:
Stop getting my hopes up like that.


Wannan listen ... hell with you ..
I and no one else (if I am not wrong) dont care what the heck you think and do and same applies on me too.
And BTW, may I know which of my post did show that I am anti american.
As I told earlier, for you everyone is against you/US. Go and see some psychiatrist.
 
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Originally posted by Lalooprasad Yadav:
The "they are against us" concept is what really sustains them.


Exactly my thoughts! Or in other words "we against them". Cannot we do any better than that?
Map once referred to this kind of thing as "polishing history"
Hey, I hate polishing history, what is said is said, it's only if the author feels like correcting himself - that's another matter.
 
R K Singh
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Originally posted by Jason Menard:
If you...


Yes .. and for now onwards I am an anti-american and will remain for YOU.
I will give counter proof for everything YOU will say for US.
AW you have shown your enough smartness
some dogs just love to f***in' bark.
and some are having food/drink and not barking right now.
 
Jason Menard
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Laloo (well, Ok. let's call a blade a blade Sahir) said "I wasn't anti-american until I cam here and was turned into an US baiter by the javaranch americans" -- why do you read only a half of the message?
I read the whole message, and posted it. So his prejudices are our fault? Such a statement is similar to saying "I liked black people until I actually met one".
You did not. Your attacks on other MD participants made me wonder what's the difference between them and me and why wouldn't you attack me with the same vigor.
Attacks, huh? If you say so. Your MD career doesn't consist of a history of posting such nonsense, so I really haven't had much to say to you until you decide to make it personal. It is interesting that you seldom have anything to say against people who make statements that myself and others find objectionable. No, it is usually not until we fire back that you have anything to say.
These definitions are too broad.
Really, why is that? Is it that they are too encompassing maybe? Is it that we don't wish to see these definitions applied to ourselves, that we might not view ourselves that way?
If we want to be specific though, I never outright said these people definitively were anti-American. What I did say was that in past threads (whether with their current pseudonyms or as "anonymous" posters) they have "demonstrated anti-American tendencies". Is there a difference? Of course there is. Further, I have provided definitions of the term. Perhaps you are placing more emotional stock in the term than I am.
I personally don't care whether or not any of these people likes this country, the people in it, or its policies. I don't lose any sleep over it. The original point though was that jokes were being made that other posters didn't find particularly funny. When people tried to point out why it wasn't funny, that's when others tried to make a larger issue out of it.
Well, yes. But these people are gone? Now Sameer Jamal says "Americans are the most confident people in the world" and this is being read as "American are arrogant".
If memory and the search engine serves, he has a history of a certain type of post. Since people remember this and have detected a previous bias in his postings, it isn't a stretch to apply that bias to that latest posting. The Internet has a long memory.
People, if you live in the most powerful country of the world, cannot you feel secure enough to tolerate a little bit more of hostility and to explain your POV with a little more patience?
Sure, up to a point. And past that point it just becomes tiring.
 
Jason Menard
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Originally posted by Lalooprasad Yadav:
Jason, Jason , Jason,
Where is all that hate coming from ?


I'm not sure where your hate comes from. However, you posted those words, not me. You are the one who applied the label to yourself, nobody else did. That you would then go back and delete it is merely revisionist. I mean it's not like you offered appologies or explanations, merely attempted to distance yourself from your earlier statements. You're simply trying to avoid responsibility for things you have said. As I pointed out earlier though, the Internet has a long memory.

The "they are against us" concept is what really sustains them. I wouldnt use that as a staple diet Jason. If you dont watch it you will soon end up being like them.


I don't think in terms of "they are against us". Personally I don't care whether or not "they" are. But that doesn't mean that I'm not more than happy to point out the errors of your ways.
 
Jason Menard
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And one more thing, Merry Christmas.
 
Mapraputa Is
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Well, Merry Christmas to you too.
JM: It seems that you don't agree with my choice of words. I may have been mistaken, but let's see if we can't try to be more precise.
It's not your choice of words in this particular thread, it's an integral impression of your way of reacting during last months.
Attacks, huh? If you say so. Your MD career doesn't consist of a history of posting such nonsense, so I really haven't had much to say to you until you decide to make it personal.
I am a person, so I take everything personally. I did not want it to be personal, I wanted it to be focused. But I do not see anything wrong about being personal.
It is interesting that you seldom have anything to say against people who make statements that myself and others find objectionable. No, it is usually not until we fire back that you have anything to say.

There are a lot of reasons. Technically, often you already replied in a controversial thread when I came across it. Psychologically, I am afraid it's much easier for me to relate to views of those born outside of America. I wont even try to pretend to be unbiased, as I am obviously not. I remember a few cases when I realized that certain posts are insulting for Americans only after somebody said so. And mostly it is that I often do not see anything particularly wrong with posts of people you consider "anti-American", since they only react to your and Thomas rather hostile posts.
But I did try to stop certain "anti-American" tendencies, the last time in this very thread. While you would chastise Pakka Desi on 10 pages for supporting murdering of Christian missioners even after he said he does not (I think Pakka is "he" and not "she"? ). But when Tom says: "The Russian people suffered severely to win WWII. However, WWII might never have happened if Stalin hadn't signed the non-agression treaty with Hitler in the first place. As the saying goes, he who sows the wind, reaps the whirlwind"
- you do not object. "There is a huge difference" - oh yeah. And this difference is called "double standards".

MI: These definitions are too broad.
JM: Really, why is that? Is it that they are too encompassing maybe?

Well, "Opposed or hostile to the government, official policies, or people of the United States" - I think every good American has been once opposed or even hostile to the government, official policies, or certain people of the United States, so this definition doesn’t really define anything.
"... Such views can be based on any or all of a number of different attitudes, such as political (anti-imperialism), economic (anti-Capitalism), religious (anti-Christian, anti-secular), cultural (anti-Hollywood), or ethical (anti-"Western decadence")."
Why call "anti-Capitalism" "Anti-Americanism"??? Then we can call these individuals "anti-French" or even "anti-Russian", since Russia is now building something that it likes to call "capitalism". The same about "anti-Christian" etc.
I liked Paul Hollander definition most: "a historically specific expression of a universal scapegoating impulse, a type of bias similar to racism, sexism and anti-Semitism, and a largely irrational, often visceral aversion to the United States and its government, domestic institutions, prevailing values, culture and people, fueled by a variety of frustrations and grievances."
I think, this is very close to how I understand "Anti-Americanism" myself. I observed a lot of this largely irrational hatred to the USA in Russia, and perhaps this is why I do not see any of our current participants as "anti-American" - they are too nice and too rational people to deserve this name.
Is it that we don't wish to see these definitions applied to ourselves, that we might not view ourselves that way?
Who are "we"? I do not think you included yourself in this pronoun, so it must be me or "my types"? If your irony was aimed at me, then you force on open door. "a largely irrational bias" - I wont deny that I have it. I was exposed to anti-American propaganda since I was born, and as much as I would like to claim that I overcame it, I do not think this is true. I already said in MD that I caught myself on negative emotions when I see American flag, something that I did not even realize for a couple of years. Dropping an atomic bomb on Hirosima and Nagasaki, or Vietnam war - I readily admit I see it differently than perhaps most Americans do. Perhaps this is why I do not see anybody who mentions these events as anti-American. You cannot make the rest of the world to see the history from your POV, admit it. People from other countries see it differently. There is no need to call them "anti-American" for it.
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[ December 26, 2002: Message edited by: Mapraputa Is ]
 
Mapraputa Is
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JM: If memory and the search engine serves, he has a history of a certain type of post. Since people remember this and have detected a previous bias in his postings, it isn't a stretch to apply that bias to that latest posting. The Internet has a long memory.
My memory refused to bring up anything that I could consider anti-American, so I had to check. Search for all posts made by JR member 9714 returned 149 posts. I checked all that have something remotely political in subject, and skipped topics like "puzzle of the day" or "being lonely sucks". Admittedly, I could skip some posts that exhibit anti-American tendencies this way, so if you have links, please post them.
Out of 149 posts, the only that have something to do with politics are:
1.
"One week back I used to think that the only solution for terrorism is the war against them, but three days back my friend who was a army person died in a mine explosion (in Kashmir ) then I thought, We r sitting in our home and office and discussing about the war against terror, Ask those people who r fighting at border or fighting against terrorism, War is not the only soultion it will shed more blood, there will be more killing, find out the root cause of terrorism, why the people become terrorist, they are also human being like us what cause them to become a terrorist, It dosent matter if Osama bin laden will be killed in the war after some time another Osama will be born we have to identify the root cause. again I say War is not the solution"
https://coderanch.com/t/36647/md/Why-India-have-war-terrorism
2. Subject: My dear Indians
"What happened to my country, Riots everywhere in Gujrat, so much hatred, I dont know when we start loving each other and began to hate those dirty politicians, may be never but still I have some hope that everything will be fine one day. "
https://coderanch.com/t/36850/md/Dear-Indians
3. Subject: How morons tried to conquer drivel ??
"By posting topics like
"How Islamic fundamentalist plan to conquer the world "
and
How Americans try to conquer the whole world"
4.
Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
"I think it's time to realize who the real enemy is. Let's ask Iraq to help us invade Saudi Arabia. After all, which country openly funds terrorists? Which country did most of the 9-11 terrorists come from? "
Pakistan
http://www.javaranch.com
bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=32&t=002615
5.
"Give Peace a Chance"
https://coderanch.com/t/37430/md/Back-Discussion
6. This is a long thread, and I did not check it all, but here are few examples of Sameer's responses:
Jason Menard: Might I suggest you take the entire sentence next time so that you have my comment in the proper context.
Sameer Jamal: Might be my tone was wrong, the thing I like to say that as in christians it is part of the religion that you help others same is in Hinduism that you have to give Daan or Dakshina to the poors and in Muslims also that you have to give Khairat, Zakat or Fitra some percentage of yor income to the poors whether they are muslims or not.
https://coderanch.com/t/37667/md/Clash-Civilizations
"Pakka I know most of the muslim will deny when u ask them to say "Vande Matram" the reson behind this is muslim beleives nobody is above god and he is the only who can be worshiped, and the meaning of "Vande Matram" is worshipping mother land which muslims cannot accept. But when you explain it to a common muslim that it is actually a respect of mother land then he will accept it from heart but that it what dirty polticians does not want do they just create difference. People like you and me can bring people of India together not the people like Bal thakrey or Imam Bukhary but first we have to clear our differences."
https://coderanch.com/t/37667/md/Clash-Civilizations
7. Subject: American History
A long joke I wont quote here.
https://coderanch.com/t/37659/md/American-History
Jason, where do you see anti-American tendencies?
[ December 26, 2002: Message edited by: Mapraputa Is ]
 
Mapraputa Is
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Oh, perhaps this:

Originally posted by Jason Menard:
I have a general rule of thumb for separating terrorists from legitimate freedom fighters.
Terrorists attack civillians, freedom fighters don't.


what do u call what America did it in vietnam and in Iraq freedom fight?
https://coderanch.com/t/36647/md/Why-India-have-war-terrorism
Is this enough to accuse Sameer in anti-American tendencies? I wonder why nobody called you anti-Indian yet.
 
Mapraputa Is
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Before misunderstanding went too far. I do not have anything personal against Jason Menard, and I think, I already said that I respect this man greatly and I appreciate his desire to make the World a better place. Otherwise I wouldn't spend my time replying to his posts.
Speaking of which...
Ravish Kumar:
Yes .. and for now onwards I am an anti-american and will remain for YOU.
I will give counter proof for everything YOU will say for US.

Even if he is right? Ravish, it's the same hatred you are opposed to! Why do not try to find the truth, regardless of whether Jason Menard agrees with it or not? Are you going to make JM your personal enemy? For what reason? He is a human being, so he can be wrong. Why hate him for it?
[ December 26, 2002: Message edited by: Mapraputa Is ]
 
R K Singh
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Originally posted by Mapraputa Is:
confused:


Why should I change myself for one Scorpion
I read Scorpions are stubborn so he is and I am.
Even if I want I cant support wrong things America does (atleast not for getting tag of pro-USian)and even if I want I cant be anti for good things American does(not for getting tag of anti-american).
I saw yesterday Jason's reply and laughed and thought of replying a smiley. Then thought even its not worth to put smiley.
But you made me to reply this dead thread.
Piece ... opssss Peace
PS: And Jason this Peace is not for getting your hopes. Everyone has to help himself.
 
Jason Menard
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Originally posted by Mapraputa Is:
... alot of good stuff ...
I liked Paul Hollander definition most:


Ok, I can go with that one.

"a largely irrational bias" - I wont deny that I have it.


And that's fine. You wre brought up that way, you admit it. I have no problem with that. Similarly, why get offended if somebody got the sense from one of your posts that you might have such a bias, and then made a reference to this apparent bias?

I readily admit I see it differently than perhaps most Americans do. Perhaps this is why I do not see anybody who mentions these events as anti-American. You cannot make the rest of the world to see the history from your POV, admit it. People from other countries see it differently.


I have no problem with that. But put it this way, if I was displaynig what you saw as anti-Russian tendencies, and you pointed it out to me that you saw it that way, would I be in the best position to say that I didn't see it as "anti-Russian"?

There is no need to call them "anti-American" for it.


Which is why I only pointed to certain apparent tendencies.
And regarding your other post highlighting various threads, I have been through them as well. Keep in mind that it is well known that certain posters used certain other logins or anonymous pseudonyms back then, and we know who was who. But be that as it may, particularly in the spirit of the season, I will decline from commenting further and just leave it at that.
I hope Santa was kind to everyone yesterday (in a non-denominational way of course).
 
Balaji Loganathan
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Originally posted by Abadula Joshi:

Just curious -- is this your full time job or you just do it when you do your full time job ? No offense and no interest in getting involved in this thread.


Dear Joshi,
Please delete your last post.
rgds
balaji
 
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To get back to the original topic, what pissed me off was that someone posted a bunch of nonsense that they received in an email. They made no attempt to check the truthfulness of it. We are supposed to be internet-savvy programmers who know that the internet is full of garbage that people spam each other with every day. We are supposed to be smart enough not to forward stuff like this. This had nothing to do with anti-Americanism in my eyes. I would have felt the same way about someone posting a new computer virus warning.
 
Thomas Paul
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Originally posted by Mapraputa Is:
what do u call what America did it in vietnam and in Iraq freedom fight?

I'm not sure what the comparison is between Vietnam and Iraq. Iraq was an agressor nation that attacked an innocent country. The US defended Kuwait from Iraq. Vietnam is a whole different question. Certainly US actions in Vietnam included some actions which can be described as terroristic and some Americans were prosecuted for those actions.
 
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Originally posted by Balaji Loganathan:

Dear Joshi,
Please delete your last post.
rgds
balaji


Balaji,
The reason why I didn't reply directly to the content of this thread is because your post about G.Bush is really not funny and is totally meaningless. It doesn't show us anything at all. So some non-related thing just got my little attention and that's why I posted that.
 
Abadula Joshi
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Originally posted by Balaji Loganathan:

Dear Joshi,
Please delete your last post.
rgds
balaji


but, I take your suggestion. To avoid any misunderstanding from others, I delete last post.
 
R K Singh
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Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
To get back to the original topic, what pissed me off..


Frankly Paul, no one has to do anything with you or anyone else ....
still I dont know why you or some dear ranchers could not take it as a normal joke
AW I am off .. I think this dead now.
PS: OFF, not to get your hopes or whatever you mean by getting hopes.... :roll:
 
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Originally posted by Mapraputa Is:

Dropping an atomic bomb on Hirosima and Nagasaki, or Vietnam war - I readily admit I see it differently than perhaps most Americans do. Perhaps this is why I do not see anybody who mentions these events as anti-American. You cannot make the rest of the world to see the history from your POV, admit it. People from other countries see it differently. There is no need to call them "anti-American" for it.


Sorry if it looks like this thread is being drifted from one point to another, but after reading Map's above statment and after reading the messages in this this thread (again pointed out by Map above) and after reading this article about the US helping Pakistan, I couldn't resist google'ing up a bit and found the following interesting stuff that will probably explain (only partly though) why people (read Ravish, Pakka, etc. if you like in this particular case) from different countries (Read India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, China, Russia, etc. in this case) see the history differently and why can't India have a war on terrorism too like US does.

Main Source:
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB79/

Declassified documents:
1. Around March/April 1971, from Dacca Consulate (East Pakistan == Banglash) to Henry Kissinger.
Selective Genocide by pak military in bangladesh
Source:http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB79/BEBB1.pdf

2. From New Delhi Consulate (Kneating) to Henry Kissinger
"Am deeply shocked at massacre by Pakistani military in East Pakistan, appalled at possibility these atrocities are being committed with American equipment, and greatly concerned at United States vulnerability to damaging allegations of association with reign of military terror."
Source: http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB79/BEBB3.pdf
Source: http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB79/BEBB2.pdf
Source:http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB79/BEBB8.pdf

3. From Kissinger to Nixon asking advice about the situation
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB79/BEBB9.pdf

4. Nixon to Kissimger
"To all hands, Don't squeeze Yahya at this time"
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB79/
6. June 21, 1971: Memorandum of conversation between Kissinger & Ambasaddor Kneating
"In all honesty, Dr. Kissinger pointed out, the President has a special feeling for President Yahya. One cannot make policy on that basis, but it is a fact of life."
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB79/BEBB13.pdf

During that time, Pakistan was declared Islamic state and had military rule, India was declared a secular democracy.
Explain the reason for US helping West-Pak Miliraty instead of East-Pak polulation & India
One reason may be because of the first para on page 3 of this http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB79/BEBB9.pdf document
Conclusion:
. East Pak people wanted their own representaives in the goverment so they get more power
. West Pak was interested in dominating East Pak
. India was interested in stopping refugee problemms and its effects own economic conditions.
. China was concerned about instability in its south and India's dominance over Pak
. USSR was concerned about China's political gains in that area and dominance over India
. USA went everywhere wherever USSR even remotely thought of going :-)
Every individual/community/state/country, is ultimately interested in his/her/its own gains/profits in the long run. No one is absolutely right/wrong morally/politically/whatever. And so people from different background see things differently.
 
Thomas Paul
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Originally posted by Mapraputa Is:
Dropping an atomic bomb on Hirosima and Nagasaki, or Vietnam war - I readily admit I see it differently than perhaps most Americans do.

I wonder what other people would have done about the atomic bombs. Would you have invaded Japan and killed even more people than the bombs killed? Would you have used conventional air strikes and probably killed just as many people? Would you have tried to starve them out and have more people die that way? I'm just wondering how people opposed to dropping the bombs would have ended the war that had already cost 50 million lives.
 
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