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View of the US from "Outside the continent"

 
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Originally posted by Rufus BugleWeed:

You would like to forget Chile and the Bannana republics wouldn't you?


As I stated, and to paraphrase a favorite American of yours, read my lips... I am not talking about the numerous friendly regimes that we have supported, not am I talking about using influence to support opposition of regimes who are not friendly to us. Neither of those situations is relevant here. Read my last post.
 
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Originally posted by Jason Menard:

Out of the four examples I don't think you can point to any one of them and say "that's what will happen in post-war Iraq", but it does give you some indication.


What will happen in post war Iraq basically depends on what US does after the war is over. If the US just installs a goverment (democratic or whatever) and then simply walks away, I will expect future terrorists from there. If the US really helps build the infrastructure and wins the hearts of the people, it may open up the flood gates of true democracy (Indian style ) in the Arab world. I think the situation will be just like Afghanistan.
 
Jason Menard
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Originally posted by Pakka Desi:

What will happen in post war Iraq basically depends on what US does after the war is over. If the US just installs a goverment (democratic or whatever) and then simply walks away, I will expect future terrorists from there. If the US really helps build the infrastructure and wins the hearts of the people, it may open up the flood gates of true democracy (Indian style ) in the Arab world. I think the situation will be just like Afghanistan.


I almost totaly agree with you. Hopefully we will stay and rebuild. I would like to think that we will at least. I would be careful though with drawing too many parallels with Afghanistan. This is mostly because the population of Iraq has a much greater level of education than that of Afghanistan, and this will be instrumental to the success of reconstruction.
 
High Plains Drifter
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All this hand-wringing over the US promoting its interests is rather sad. We've always been in the business of promoting capitalism and a democratic form of government that -- surprise, surprise -- we believe benefits free trade. And here's the thing about free trade: free trade stops wars. Ask yourselves who GWB thinks is evil. Ask yourself how much business we do in those places. Thank you, I'll be here all the week.
It seems insipid to me to bring up Cold War history as evidence of the US' ongoing bad faith. In the Cold War, you were with us or with someone else. That's the way the world was getting divvied up in the eyes of the superpowers.
So sorry if all that US-, China- and Soviet-sponsored military hardware, which we all know no one ever wanted on their virgin, fawnlike soil, actually made it possible for other countries to defend themselves against their enemies. So sorry the Big Three wanted something in return for their largesse. So sorry if we have some genuine a-holes in our government who want more control than the rest of us think they're entitled to; in global politics, however, control and power are the only games worth playing.
That's just the way it is. Go ahead and tell me how it would be different if some other country was the most massively equipped superpower in the world.
 
Pakka Desi
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Originally posted by Jason Menard:

I almost totaly agree with you. Hopefully we will stay and rebuild. I would like to think that we will at least. I would be careful though with drawing too many parallels with Afghanistan. This is mostly because the population of Iraq has a much greater level of education than that of Afghanistan, and this will be instrumental to the success of reconstruction.


Actually, I think, better education level of Iraqis make them more dangerous that Afghanis. In Afghn. people are more engrossed in making their ends meet. They don't have food to eat, let alone books to read. In sucha situaltion, at most they can think of is fighting locally. I do not think Afghnis would realistically think of setting up a caliphate in the whole world. All they care is about their own problems. They may keep fighting locally but will never think of getting a US visa and blowing up some other building.
Iraqis (just like Saudis), will have plenty to eat (thanks to the oil money) and thus enough time to think. That's when these guys start dreaming of making the world Islamic. In Hindi, their is a saying, "Khali dimaag shaitan ka ghar"..i.e an empty mind is a devil's workshop. That's what is happening with Saudis (most of the terrorists are from there). They already have the basic ingradients of terrorism and education increases the reach of their minds.
Of course, this is just a theory. But I do see it happening in muslim countries which are relatively well off.
 
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I think middle-east needs better heros. If you look at the leaders who are popular among the masses in the Muslim world then it not difficult to see why so many terrorists are coming from there. Sadam is popular in the Muslim world. So is Osama Bin Laden. If violence is portrayed as a virtue then what else can you expect from that society. Besides it would definitely do US some good if is not seen as exploiting oil resources in the middle-east. Let the Saudi royals be removed by their people if that�s what they want. Even Israel doesn�t need American protection anymore.
 
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Khali dimaag shaitan ka ghar


on this side of the globe we say -
Idle hands are hands of the devil.
 
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Are you American? If not, you must be anti-american


Unlike some of these other countries, questioning ones leadership is a right, and a responsibility in the US.
Without this ongoing banter, just as we have in this post, a country becomes mindless sheep who follow their leaders into one stupid situation after another. Hence we have leagues of fanatics who strap bombs to themselves & hijack planes "for the cause"....what a load of CRAP, they are nothing more than mindless robots being controlled by their "demi-gods". Yea lets kill people in the name of our God so we will have a place in heaven. To bad these morons never read the books they supposedly base their "cause" on. If there is a hell it is lined with these idiots.
This is probably another thing most other countries dont understand about the US & one thing that I AM damn proud of being an american for! I can question authority, debate it freely & completely disagree if I want to without the fear of being dragged off to some prison as a political prisoner.
What I said, & you very much construed is that some of us AMERICANS are just a tad sick & tired of paying with our money & our lives to wipe up these moronic regimes. We have problems that need to be fixed too! When the hell are some of the other countries around the world gonna get off their butts & take some freaking resposibility for these nutjobs...... why do we have to run to help every damn time! If someone would have put a bullet in Hitler's head when they had the chance we would have never had to deal with him but NO, let him have this let him have that...pacify him.....& what did it get us?
I will admit that this comment struck a raw nerve right now as I just found out my sister is on her way back to the gulf, again (She did the first round) & it really pisses me off that once again I have to chew my nails off every time I hear a chopper went down over there.
Personally Im in the mood right now to go over & kick some ass myself but Im too damn old & I did my time. But the MOST of the rest of the world just sits there & lets these lunatics grow in power unitl its too damn late....then they run for the nearest Big Brother to save them.
Scariest part of all is that 90% of this stupidity is over religion.... My Gods better than your god, or my god is the ONLY god so you must go. And they wonder why I gave up organized religion years ago..... Folks quit trying to prove your god is the one god & try reading those holy books you preach about so much, & this time REALLY READ THE DAMN THINGS!
 
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Originally posted by Jason Menard:
I don't deny this.


Thanks God !!!
Atleast you got courage to say I don't deny this.
Hope soon you will have courage to say that I accept it.
Look nothing anti-US here ..
ATB
 
R K Singh
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Originally posted by Jason Menard:
I almost totaly agree with you.


You are almost there ..
still I am silent abt US, I am not saying anything anti-US or pro
 
R K Singh
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Now a bit serious..
I think US as a great nation because ....
1) It has more than 200 yrs of demcratic history.
2) It has no as such society. It has cosmpolitan culture.
3) It has grown up by its own work.
4) And now its enjoying fruit of its work and labour.
The problem is with other nations, who want US to intervain in everything, it includes India also. Why the hell India needs US view on any policy...
I dont know much abt international politics, but that much I know, now US wants to control it.
And with my little practical knowledge, when ever someone become stronger, weak people will hate them for no reason OR for one reason that he is stronger than him.
AW whatever US does, it does for its own interest. But at the same time it might not be suitable for others, so they have their own reasoning for their views abt US.
And like the US policy of not caring abt others.
If I shoot a bullet for defence, then one has to die.. and his family will curse me ...
But sometime US unnecessary pokes nose, in some cases, which is nothing but a hangover of being superpower.
 
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What I said, & you very much construed is that some of us AMERICANS are just a tad sick & tired of paying with our money & our lives to wipe up these moronic regimes. We have problems that need to be fixed too! When the hell are some of the other countries around the world gonna get off their butts & take some freaking resposibility for these nutjobs...... why do we have to run to help every damn time! If someone would have put a bullet in Hitler's head when they had the chance we would have never had to deal with him but NO, let him have this let him have that...pacify him.....& what did it get us?


I hope you see the contradiction in this paragraph. Why do we have to do this. Why doesn't someone else. Look what happened with Hitler. The very reason is that nobody else does. So are you saying we just let it go and let him take over the Middle East. Or are you saying we have to do something but where the hell is everyone else?
I hope your sister remains safe. As well as everyone else.
 
DC Dalton
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No I dont think Im contadicting myself. Temper might have gotten the best of me but hey... As you said
are you saying we have to do something but where the hell is everyone else?
Exactly! & where they heck has everyone else been for 20 years with this lunatic (actually I think its more like 40 years), why do we wait until it becomes a crisis.
What I was saying was that if the countries who have a chance to deal with these madmen when they arent so powerful would take care of these problems they wouldnt escalate into the messes we have. France, England & Russia had a chance to take Hitler out early but choose to pacify him. Similarly Saddam has been "stroked" by many of his neighbors for a long time now. There is too much "Ignore them & they will go away" behavior with these nutjobs, esp by their neighbors.
But then again we all sat watching the gulf war on TV saying "why the heck are we stopping....finish the job!"
Let's hope all who are sent to the region return safe & let's also hope we havent come to the brink of total destruction, again.
 
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Originally posted by Ravish Kumar:

I dont know much abt international politics, but that much I know, now US wants to control it.


In the arab world this would mean control people who hate USA. Does not sound easy task to me.
What does USA control: oil price?
If its cheap then why Saudi Arabia is such a rich country. They have not much other to sell.
In my opinion this control thing is highly exagerated. The last remaining superpower has some influence, o.k.. But its very limited.
 
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DC: If someone would have put a bullet in Hitler's head when they had the chance we would have never had to deal with him but NO, let him have this let him have that...pacify him.....& what did it get us?
DC: What I was saying was that if the countries who have a chance to deal with these madmen when they arent so powerful would take care of these problems they wouldnt escalate into the messes we have. France, England & Russia had a chance to take Hitler out early but choose to pacify him.
You can say so now only 70 years later. Especially sitting in a superpower country.
Someone could also say the same about Stalin instead of Hitler: "France, England & Germany &(Poland?) togather had a chance to take Stalin out early but choose to pacify him". No! No one chose to pacify others. In those days, they were all almost equal in strength. Everyone was waiting for the right time because they were all still suffering by effects the First World War. All four of them were colonialist and were annexing other smaller nations expanding their own teritories. Even England and France had many fights over african and asian colonies. It was not like England telling France, "hey u know what?, we both are peace loving. We do not have any colonies, but this german is a bad guy. he keeps poking his nose around other places. Let's kick him out". How I wish international politics were so simple.
 
Leverager of our synergies
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Especially sitting in a superpower country.
Someone could also say the same about Stalin instead of Hitler: "France, England & Germany &(Poland?) togather had a chance to take Stalin out early but choose to pacify him".

Actually this happened. Not Stalin, but after Communistic overturn in Russia, many countries (France, Great Britain, US, Japan, Italy, Finland, Germany, Poland, Romania, Greece, Turkey) invaded her in 1918-21, trying to overthrow communistic regime. Did not work.
 
Melvin Menezes
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DC: Similarly Saddam has been "stroked" by many of his neighbors for a long time now. There is too much "Ignore them & they will go away" behavior with these nutjobs, esp by their neighbors.
The assumption in this statement is that Iraq's neighbours were all very powerful and could take out saddam, but did not do so because they were nutjobs and were "ignoring" him.?
Well Iran did fight with Iraq for a long time. And Iran did not fight Saddam because Saddam was a bad guy, but because Ayatollah himself was worse. And guess what US and USSR did? US announced its neutrality in the conflict in 1980 while USSR stopped supplying arms to both sides. But later they both secretly (and sometines openly) started supplying arms. USSR to Iraq in 82 and US to Iran in 84.
There is less other nations can do on their own when superpowers are always around. And yes, all this has happened within last 20 years(1980-1988).
So you know why the view of the US (or USSR for that matter) is different from other sides of the worlds.
DC: Exactly! & where they heck has everyone else been for 20 years with this lunatic (actually I think its more like 40 years), why do we wait until it becomes a crisis.
And Which everyone else are you talking about? As far as i know, there have been two and only two, since last 60 years, who could do the job. And now ONE and ONLY ONE since last 20 years.
 
Melvin Menezes
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DC: Personally Im in the mood right now to go over & kick some ass myself but Im too damn old & I did my time. But the MOST of the rest of the world just sits there & lets these lunatics grow in power unitl its too damn late....then they run for the nearest Big Brother to save them
Are you assuming that most of the rest of the world did have the oppertunity to finish the job, but did not do so because they were lazy or did not have the guts?
There are two important points that makes it easy for someone from a superpower nation to say the above.
1) WWI and WWII were not fought on their land.
2) They never had to worry about the basic survival necessasity: FOOD.
In the last 60 years, most of the europe was still recovering from from the losses from two big wars in their own backyard. Even today, europeans have to worry about resource management.
Most of the asia (except japan and china) and africa was still recovering from the systematic loot by the colonial reigms of europe. Even today in 21 centuary, they do still have to worry about food for their very own survival.
How do you think it is possible for either of the three continental countries to even think of kicking some remote asses?
 
DC Dalton
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No I wouldnt say lazy or no guts. I think thats being a tad absurd. No, Im saying that most of these countries seem to adopt a policy of "ignore them & they will go away" which has NEVER proven effective & then the situation boils over into what we have here. When this idiot started with that gassing of Iranians & his own people the ENTIRE area should have wiped him off the face of the earth. 1st chance lost. Next was the invasion of Kuwait, once again another chance lost (no thanks to King Bush I). Im sure there are others but we dont need to go on & on.
I also understand the disadvantages of some of these countries, trust me I do. I am not one of those "typical" americans who sit around drinking beer, watching football & avoiding the world with a comment like "as long as they dont bother me" I am, or try to be an open minded, WIDE open eyed person who realizes that many many different cultures & problems make up this world & one countries problems can set off events that effect many, many others. Some might call me a liberal but I think of myself as "outside that" BUT I also see countries like Egypt, Saudia Arabia & Turkey, to name a few, who have the economic means by which to deal with a tyrant like this keeping "arms length" from the situation. Granted none of these countries have the military might to just walk in & wack him without a long & bloody confrontation but they have the ability to strangle him via commerce. Iran cant stand him so he's basically surrounded.
I really dont know anymore.....It just amazes me that in this day & age (hello 21st century) we have countries that can't afford to feed their own people spending billions on weapons. We have nothing but hatred between different races & religions that dates back to the beginning of time & no one has figured out that we all freaking need each other & can learn & help each other. I blame most of it on religion & simple greed. Yes there are power worshipers (basically sado masochists with money) but the stupidity of the human race just freaking amazes me.
On that note I think Im signing off this post, even though I started it. I think we can all agree that this thing is so far out of our hands its not funny & we can bitch & moan all day long but little will be changed from it. I thank you all for your thoughtfull comments & arguments, in all you really did answer my question. The only thing I think we can ALL agree on is to disagree somewhat, which I feel is damn healthy....we can air our differences, accept that we arent all alike & move on, without coming to blows (or war) on..........
 
Jason Menard
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To get back to what I think may have been your original point in posting this thread (or maybe not), the differing slant of the headlines for the same news item carried today on the front pages of CNN and BBC illustrate the differing views rather well I think:
BBC: 'No smoking guns' in Iraq arms search
CNN: Blix: Many unanswered questions on Iraq
 
mister krabs
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Originally posted by Jason Menard:
To get back to what I think may have been your original point in posting this thread (or maybe not), the differing slant of the headlines for the same news item carried today on the front pages of CNN and BBC illustrate the differing views rather well I think:
BBC: 'No smoking guns' in Iraq arms search
CNN: Blix: Many unanswered questions on Iraq


From MSNBC:
UNITED NATIONS, Jan. 9 � U.N. experts have found �no smoking guns� in Iraq, although there are many unanswered questions about the nation�s weapons program, chief weapons inspector Hans Blix said Thursday.
 
Jason Menard
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The AP wording things a little more strongly (no mention of this on BBC):
Blix Says Iraq Violated U.N. Sanctions
 
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