• Post Reply Bookmark Topic Watch Topic
  • New Topic
programming forums Java Mobile Certification Databases Caching Books Engineering Micro Controllers OS Languages Paradigms IDEs Build Tools Frameworks Application Servers Open Source This Site Careers Other Pie Elite all forums
this forum made possible by our volunteer staff, including ...
Marshals:
  • Campbell Ritchie
  • Ron McLeod
  • Paul Clapham
  • Rob Spoor
  • Liutauras Vilda
Sheriffs:
  • Jeanne Boyarsky
  • Junilu Lacar
  • Tim Cooke
Saloon Keepers:
  • Tim Holloway
  • Piet Souris
  • Stephan van Hulst
  • Tim Moores
  • Carey Brown
Bartenders:
  • Frits Walraven
  • Himai Minh

Wealth Redistribution

 
mister krabs
Posts: 13974
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Originally posted by Ram:
Couple of decade ago Iraqi (including Saddam) where friends US, now ???

The US and Saddam were never friends. But are you suggesting that India would use nuclear weapons as a first strike against the US?
 
Bartender
Posts: 1843
Eclipse IDE Ruby Java
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
The US and Saddam were never friends


Depends on how you define friends. Saddam was made an honary citizen of Detroit in 1980 and given a key to the city for his donations to charity.
Granted, that's Detroit and not the US as a whole, but that sounds pretty friendly to me....
[ April 16, 2003: Message edited by: Joel McNary ]
 
Ranch Hand
Posts: 43
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
But are you suggesting that India would use nuclear weapons as a first strike against the US?


When it is impossible to defend with convensional weapon the there is not option other than using nuclear weapon (It is always better to use it first when you face a superior opponent).

Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
The US and Saddam were never friends.


During early stage of Saddam's WMD program, Iraq got supplies from US and ("west") germany for its biological and chemical weapons program. And it was used against Iranian army during Iran-Iraq war .... which was not a labeled criminal act by then US government. So now you decide who is/was friend to whom ?
[ April 16, 2003: Message edited by: Ram ]
 
Thomas Paul
mister krabs
Posts: 13974
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Originally posted by Ram:
During early stage of Saddam's WMD program, Iraq got supplies from US and ("west") germany for its biological and chemical weapons program. And it was used against Iranian army during Iran-Iraq war .... which was not a labeled criminal act by then US government. So now you decide who is/was friend to whom ?

Do you have a source for your accusation that Saddam's WMD's came from the US? The US was selling arms to Iran during the Iran-Iraq war.
 
Thomas Paul
mister krabs
Posts: 13974
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Originally posted by Ram:
When it is impossible to defend with convensional weapon the there is not option other than using nuclear weapon (It is always better to use it first when you face a superior opponent).

I am sure your neighbors are happy to know this about you. Now they know to fire their nuclear weapons first at you.
 
Ranch Hand
Posts: 897
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator


When it is impossible to defend with convensional weapon the there is not option other than using nuclear weapon (It is always better to use it first when you face a superior opponent).


What youre proposing is striking the enemy (whoever that may be, I dont care right now) first.
Im no stormin' Norman but surely thats a case for using a weapon in a proactive manner rather than a reactive manner. And I always thought defence was supposed to be reactive.
Put it this way. You join the nuclear league, you make yourself a target for the other nuclear powers. If you cant take the heat, stay out.
 
Thomas Paul
mister krabs
Posts: 13974
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Originally posted by Joel McNary:
Granted, that's Detroit and not the US as a whole, but that sounds pretty friendly to me....


So Saddam gives a bunch of money to charity and some dopey mayor gives him the key to the city. How does that trun into Saddam being a friend of the US in the sense that the original poster meant it (as a strategic friend of the USA)?
 
Ram
Ranch Hand
Posts: 43
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
Do you have a source for your accusation that Saddam's WMD's came from the US? The US was selling arms to Iran during the Iran-Iraq war.


Check this one out
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/08/18/national/main519036.shtml
BTW, I saw a documentary on History Channel, a year ago, which showed the place from where Iraq's inital supply of anthrax and chemical weapon orginated. They even show the picture labs labs which sent them with govt supervision. I never saw that episode again.
Do you think Iraq's could have developed it all alone without any help from western nation, taking into conideration eastern bloc (communist) where with Iran (because Iranian leaders turned against US after the Islamic revolutions) during that period, It is easy to guess who helped Saddam.
 
Thomas Paul
mister krabs
Posts: 13974
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Did you read the article? It said that a covert group helped with battle planning for Iraq. It didn't say anything about the US supplying WMDs to Iraq which is what you accused the US of doing. The source for the story? Unnamed "military officers".
If the Eastern bloc was in favor of Iran then why were all Iraqi weapons from their tanks to their planes to their rifles made in Russia?
But I am happy to see that you admit that you have no source for your accusation.
 
Ranch Hand
Posts: 1551
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Thomas Paul - schizoprenia


Are you talking about the appalling ( no bad pun intended ) number of identities Jason Meynard has?
US sold weapons to Pakistan and India at the same time. US sold weapons to Iraq and Iran at the same time. US supports Irishmen and Englishmen. It's a Smothers brothers relationship, but US loves Isrealis and Palestineans.
Don McLean said it best, US's only friend is fire.
But back to the thesis of this thread my goal of suggesting that US spend 5% of Iraq oil revenue on Palestinians is to cause people to reject the idea. Like George Bush suggested, make them show their cards. I think it would be so very illuminating to have a UN vote on this issue.
Those of you that claim it's not the US's oil to tax, why is it US's fault the plight of the Palestinians. Why does the US get this burden???
US is to blame for everything and US taxpayer must pay for everything?
[ April 16, 2003: Message edited by: Rufus BugleWeed ]
 
Leverager of our synergies
Posts: 10065
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Are you talking about the appalling (no bad pun intended) number of identities Jason Meynard has?
What *this* is about? That MD now has four moderators? This wasn't Jason's idea.
 
Ugly Redneck
Posts: 1006
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Originally posted by Ravish Kumar:

And then overtaken by .......
You know why do US supports Pakistan? Because it knows what India is.US needs one puppet in south asia region, which neither China nor India could be.


US supports Pakistan because India took a Soviet tilt during the cold war era. Neverthless once the cold war came to an end US has hardly done anything to prove its friendship to Pakistan. India reaps the benefits of American enterprises more than any other country in the region. Sure Pakistan gets a handout of a few billion dollars every now and then but which is better? A 100 jobs or a billion dollars which will be swallowed by the corrupt government.
Remember that it didnt take a very powerful India to throw the British out. It took one man and one peace movement to accomplish that. It didnt take militant African Americans to gain civil rights, it took the same.. one man and one peace movement. It didnt take militant uprisings to end apartheid in S. Africa again it took one man and one peace movement. So what does that tell you?
The problem with most so called "educated" Indians today is they wish to satisfy their egos in front of European and North American counterparts on every platform. From military to personality. And to tell the truth India is nowhere near being par with the west on even something as basic as public facilites leave alone the military. I think we Indians will earn more respect by being humble and forthcoming rather than propping themselves on some imaginary platform and talking about possesing ICBMs, WMD etc. to gain respect by intimidation. As for me, I have served two years in the Indian Air Force. So unless someone has the same level of service or more I dont think my patriotism can be doubted.


If there was Mr. Gandhi then there were also Bhagat Singh, Chandrashekar Azad, Sukhdev Singh, Udham Singh, Kartar Singh Sarabha,Ramaprasad Bismil, KhudiRam Bose.. to name few.
Do you know who did kill General O'Dwyer, the main culprit of JaliawalaBag case even though he was transfered to Britain.


Whats your point? Sardar Udham Singh of Sunam killed Sir Michael O'Dwyer, so? If everyone went on vicarious killing sprees humanity wouldnt exist. The Irish can go around killing the British for massacres in Ireland, Indians and Pakistanis can do the same. The Germans and Israelis can be fighting forever under such a policy. The way out is by one party giving in. Hate begets hate. I am NOT stating that India play dead and roll over at the whims and fancies of any other nation but lets not focus on unnecessary elements when there is much to be done elsewhere.


AW India is not a nation of Gandhi only.


Sure, but he is the most respectable soul to emerge from our nation.


What is wrong in possesing ICBM?
It will give more power to defense yourself.


Whats wrong in not wanting to posses it? We already have a strong nuclear deterrent, why desire for an ICBM? Most of our enemies are within striking distance of our current missiles. We really dont have any "Inter-continental" enemies.


And today if India is in much better position to defend himself than any other country, then say thanks to Kalam and ABB, who succesfully did Nuclear test and declared India a nuclear power.


Yea right! India is in much better position because of a muslim(a minority group) : according to you. A significant portion of the Indian population goes around masquerading their pride by decimating the minorities in India. Spend some money on improving national unity.. then think about buying an ICBM lest the northern and southern regions of India aim it against each other.
I am from Southern India and yea I hate the North and its intolerant attitude. Every wondered why South India had an "almost" non-existent freedom movement. Wondered why the British entered through the south? Wondered why there are strong pockets of anglo-controlled region in Southern India? Wondered why there is hardly any violence between muslims and hindus in Southern India?
Think!!
 
Ram
Ranch Hand
Posts: 43
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Originally posted by Thomas Paul:

If the Eastern bloc was in favor of Iran then why were all Iraqi weapons from their tanks to their planes to their rifles made in Russia?


Even though Iraqis bought arms from America in early 1980's, they never had the technology to manufacture the spare parts or means buy it from any one who manufactures it, So all the arms they bought are useless. This is enough reason to refurnish their arsenal with Russian made ones.
Further proof :
Before Islamic Revolution in Iran, US supplied Iran with the latest fighter aircraft (Tomcat) after the revolution American maintanence engineers made sure that all Iranian's Tomcats are not capable of firing certain missiles.
Feel free to fill out the moral of the above story.
Also check this out
http://home.att.net/~jbaugher1/f14_6.html

But I am happy to see that you admit that you have no source for your accusation.
You would have definetly watched that documentary if you are a frequent watch of The History Channel. Any way if I come across the proof, I will forward it to you.
 
Wanderer
Posts: 18671
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Those of you that claim it's not the US's oil to tax, why is it US's fault the plight of the Palestinians. Why does the US get this burden???
Who said that? You're putting words in people's mouths. You're the one who brought up sending money to the Palestinians. Try making some sort of coherent statement of your own, rather than trying to assign incoherent statements to others. This was what Thomas and I were objecting to:

Now if ISP says 5% of oil revenues from Iraq are going to be taxed


Now this just sounds blatantly wrong to me, regardless of what the money might be used for. But perhaps I've misunderstood what you meant. "Oil revenues from Iraq" sounds like you think the US will simply claim all money from Iraqi oil sales for itself, and 5% will then be diverted elsewhere. Or did you mean something else? The US could, for example, impose a 5% import tax on all Iraqi oil sold in the US, thus raising the price of Iraqi oil to US consumers. I'm not commenting on whether this would be a good idea or not - just saying it would be legal, as far as I know. But the US couldn't put a tax on Iraqi oil sold to other countries. Is this (an import tax) closer to what you had in mind, or was it something else? I'll withold further comments until we get a better idea what you're really saying.
 
Sheriff
Posts: 6450
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Originally posted by Rufus BugleWeed:
Are you talking about the appalling ( no bad pun intended ) number of identities Jason Meynard has?


Time to lay off the Bugleweed. The only identity I have ever used is this one. Well, looking back that's not 100% accurate. In this thread I posted as <Postal Worker>, <Ten Dollar Ho>, <Robin>, <Mr. Spock>, and <William Jefferson Clinton>.
[ April 16, 2003: Message edited by: Jason Menard ]
 
Jason Menard
Sheriff
Posts: 6450
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Ram,
The US has never supplied chemical or biological weapons to Iraq. What did happen is that Iraq aquired some precursors from the US and other countries, that are (or were at the time) available to pretty much any research institution for the purpose of medical and academic research. The Iraqis then used these precursors in their weapons research to come up with a domestic chem/bio weapons production capability. Iraq's conventional arms are/were primarily Russian, French, and German, including some that are quite new as we have found out recently.
 
Paul McKenna
Ugly Redneck
Posts: 1006
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Originally posted by Ram:

Hey did you ever wonder why MK Gandhi didn't want to lead the government???
My answer he felt his way of thinking will not modernise a country. So being true selfless politician he opted out.


Wrong! Gandhi always believed in self reliance. He encouraged the purchase of Indian products to develop the various cottage industries of India. He did not lead the government because he was extremely disillusioned after the partition of Pakistan and India. He was also disappointed with the way India was developing an Army, Navy and in general a military. He believed that India was better off spending its money and resources on developing its people. Now that may be true to an extent but I would not agree with his principle entirely.
 
Ranch Hand
Posts: 5397
1
Spring Java
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Originally posted by Sriraj Rajaram:
because of a muslim(a minority group) : according to you.
Oh My dear, first let me make it very clear that I am one of those "confused elite" Indian who believes in themselves.
So for me it does not matter whether someone is muslim or christian or sikh or jain or any religion you can think of.
Yes, according to me, Kalam has done a great job. I cant disagree with this just because he is Muslim.
Yes, according to me ABB has done a great job.
I cant disagree just because I dont like RSS and BJP.
A significant portion of the Indian population goes around masquerading their pride by decimating the minorities in India.
I thought that its always politicians who opt for riot as there easy way to win election.
AW I have not met any Indian who is happy abt riots.
And I dont see that its as common as you are trying to tell.
Spend some money on improving national unity..
I will be happy to know how one can make someone united by spending money.
I was thinking and still think that we are already united and strong.
then think about buying an ICBM lest the northern and southern regions of India aim it against each other.

opsss.. please elaborate this sentenace. I am not able to get what do you want to say.
I am from Southern India and yea I hate the North and its intolerant attitude.

FYI, I am living in south india since 1993.
And you are the first guy who is saying this.
AW May I know the reason for it ?
If being proud of oneself is intolerant then you do not need to go to north India to see the intolerant attitude.
Every wondered why South India had an "almost" non-existent freedom movement.

Please help yourself And its not abt whole south India. Its abt just one state of SI.
Wondered why the British entered through the south?

LOL I am desperate to know.
And I was thinking that Calcutta was in east of India.
Do you wonder why did they "want" to come ??
Wondered why there are strong pockets of anglo-controlled region in Southern India?
Beacuse castesism and poverty is more in south.
And FYI, one of the state in south has ban forced conversion.
But I would like to listen your side of story.
Wondered why there is hardly any violence between muslims and hindus in Southern India?
:rollingeyes: [it is one of the fallacies ]
I would love to know.
Please help me to understand what do you want to say and how does it fit with "Intercontinental Ballistic Missile" discussion.
India reaps the benefits of American enterprises more than any other country in the region.
No comments on this. Pakka Desi has already clarified this doubt. Just look in some old thread.
Think!!
while lauging I cant think....

AW so you want to say that India should not have ICBM because we got freedom bcoz of Gandhi who was messiaha of Peace and Ahinsa.
And FYI, I am great fan of Gandhi but you cant apply "same formula all the time".
And BTW when British left India, there was nothing more to loot (this was also one of the reason).
I am not agree with Ram's view on this point that it will be used for offensive attack, but yes it will help to "not to" have attack at all.
 
Ranch Hand
Posts: 1936
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Originally posted by Sriraj Rajaram:

I am from Southern India and yea I hate the North and its intolerant attitude. Every wondered why South India had an "almost" non-existent freedom movement. Wondered why the British entered through the south? Wondered why there are strong pockets of anglo-controlled region in Southern India? Wondered why there is hardly any violence between muslims and hindus in Southern India?
Think!!


Oops, I am from South, but I am not with you there mate! I think you wont get much support on that one.
Well, the relative harmony between different religious groups in South India, I guess its the relatively higher literacy rates, standard of living and prosperity the reason. Another fact is that those minority religions are not that of a 'minority' in South. And, most importantly, we don't have many hardliners/fanatics, we are a happy bunch.
Sorry that was bit off-topic. Back to what ever the thread was about, err.. what was it about?
 
Paul McKenna
Ugly Redneck
Posts: 1006
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Originally posted by Ravish Kumar:

A significant portion of the Indian population goes around masquerading their pride by decimating the minorities in India.
I thought that its always politicians who opt for riot as there easy way to win election.
AW I have not met any Indian who is happy abt riots.
And I dont see that its as common as you are trying to tell.
Spend some money on improving national unity..
I will be happy to know how one can make someone united by spending money.
I was thinking and still think that we are already united and strong.


Spend money on programs that encourage national unity, for example cultural and field trips between the north and south indian schools. Make English the official language and do not encourage the use of Hindi as one, it puts off many south indians.
For hatred towards the north please read tamil political pamphlets. Politicians there have always garnered maximum votes by adopting anti central / anti northern stance. I am a native of that state.. I know the growing dissent for north indians quite well.


then think about buying an ICBM lest the northern and southern regions of India aim it against each other.

opsss.. please elaborate this sentenace. I am not able to get what do you want to say.
I am from Southern India and yea I hate the North and its intolerant attitude.

FYI, I am living in south india since 1993.
And you are the first guy who is saying this.
AW May I know the reason for it ?
If being proud of oneself is intolerant then you do not need to go to north India to see the intolerant attitude.


As above.. anyway that was just a rant of mine. Perhaps it was way off topic. I was hoping to see a rebuttal on the rest of my post rather than my last paragraph


Every wondered why South India had an "almost" non-existent freedom movement.

Please help yourself And its not abt whole south India. Its abt just one state of SI.


Yes you are correct. South India did have a freedom movement.. that is why I highlighted "Almost non-existent". The number of freedom fighters contributed by the south pales in comparison with those contributed by north.


Wondered why the British entered through the south?

LOL I am desperate to know.
And I was thinking that Calcutta was in east of India.
Do you wonder why did they "want" to come ??


Common misconception. British first established strong control in Madras and then Calcutta. Here is a link
St.George and his missionaries also first established themselves in Madras before any other portion of India.


Wondered why there are strong pockets of anglo-controlled region in Southern India?
Beacuse castesism and poverty is more in south.
And FYI, one of the state in south has ban forced conversion.
But I would like to listen your side of story.



Wondered why there is hardly any violence between muslims and hindus in Southern India?
:rollingeyes: [it is one of the fallacies ]
I would love to know.


Ayodhya took place in the north, not in the south. Even during that entire episode there were 3 instances of violences for the entire state of TN as compared to the thousands of deaths that occurred in the north. Godhra and its repercussions were chiefly felt in the north not down south. Please provide some evidence of tensions between hindus and minorites in south. Yes, Coimbatore incident was the one-off episode. Give me something other than that.


Please help me to understand what do you want to say and how does it fit with "Intercontinental Ballistic Missile" discussion.


As I stated earlier, it was a rant by me and shouldnt have been the core focus of your rebuttal. I had posted much about why iCBMs are not required by India and why a more peaceful stance would be helpful. Please provide your replies to that.


And FYI, I am great fan of Gandhi but you cant apply "same formula all the time".
And BTW when British left India, there was nothing more to loot (this was also one of the reason).
I am not agree with Ram's view on this point that it will be used for offensive attack, but yes it will help to "not to" have attack at all.


Yes, there was nothing more to loot. 90% of todays Indian railways was constructed by the British. Democracy, the pride of Indian politics was given by the british. Roads and Bridges all provided by the British were not sufficient.
Again, I may not have the facts to prove the following but no one may have proof to prove otherwise. I feel the British took away much of Indian art / jewellery at first as an act of plundering. But on hindsight it seems appropriate. Would you like the Kohinoor diamond to be housed in India? It would be looted within the first week. We still dont have sufficient infrastructure to deal with our existing national treasures.. you can take a look at some of dilapidated palaces in UP for that.
 
R K Singh
Ranch Hand
Posts: 5397
1
Spring Java
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Originally posted by Sriraj Rajaram:
I have hell of work but still I would lone to enlight you.
Spend money on programs that encourage national unity, for example cultural and field trips between the north and south indian schools.

It all happens my dear,
It happens only in India ;)
Just open your eyes and see column in The Hindu or TOI or Decaan Herald or whatever news paper you prefer to read and check the cultural activities/Events column.
One does not miss between line, its from above link:
So you can begin the coming week with a bang with It Happened One Night(an English play about mistaken identities), Maru Naam Joker(a Gujarati version of the same play) and Hera Pheri, in Hindi(the story of a conman who masquerades as a lawyer and the confusion thereafter) - three comedy plays produced and directed by Shubha Khote.
opsss........... All this thing is happening in your Chinnai .. [where are all bloody politicians, make hue and cry, how can a Gujrati and Hindi play is allowed in SI state capital ;) ]
And what do you think RECs are for ??
And what abt all cultural festivals which happens almost in all major cities.
And more over when and how did you get this impression that SI and NI are diffrent ?
Make English the official language and do not encourage the use of Hindi as one, it puts off many south indians.
Here really I cant help you
The people who think language is cause of division IMO they are puppet of politicians hand.
Its my free advice, remove goggles givn by dirty politicians.

For hatred towards the north please read tamil political pamphlets.

Yes I have read those pamphlets and articles also once in a while.
But really I have not seen that anyone cares abt them.
They are like some unknown person telling you how to reduce your obesity in Railway station and giving pamphlets though you are perfect and fine.
Politicians there have always garnered maximum votes by adopting anti central / anti northern stance.
So what am I crying.
I have my own mind who can think and take actions.
I dont like to live in Ghetto.
I am a native of that state.. I know the growing dissent for north indians quite well

I am living here. Chinnai I go almost once in 2-3 months to meet my friends.

The number of freedom fighters contributed by the south pales in comparison with those contributed by north.

What do you want to say ??
British first established strong control in Madras and then Calcutta.
from your prev post:
Wondered why the British entered through the south?
Please enlight me.

90% of todays Indian railways was constructed by the British.
Please correct your facts. Please count how many trains were in pre-independent era and how many are in post-independent.
Please also check out the length of railway track in these two eras.
And FYI, it was not build for India.
Just think why all initial trains were originating and terminating to cities which have ports ??
AW in short, looks like you want others to believe that trains, bridges etc were given by British ;)
I wont give any answre
You can ask any british why they have not taken away roads, train etc
Democracy, the pride of Indian politics was given by the british.
I never knew it.
AW FYI, one more thing we have got because of British, and I can bet on it ;).
That is also a pride of Indian politics.
Guess....
Amma Yaar, Independence Day
Would you like the Kohinoor diamond to be housed in India?
Why not.. do you think Britain will return now.
It would be looted within the first week.
assume => ass of u & me
OR this is the reason why it wont return ;)
We still dont have sufficient infrastructure to deal with our existing national treasures.. you can take a look at some of dilapidated palaces in UP for that.
We are becoming concious of these things and now most of such places are under MoAS, India.
Now let us come to the point for which this thread .. no no what we were discussing.
I had posted much about why iCBMs are not required by India and why a more peaceful stance would be helpful. Please provide your replies to that.
Both can be done simultaneously.
We can have ICBM and still stance for peace, which is India's fundamental policy.

And I have a kind request. Please dont bring the topic of NI & SI.
Still if you want to discuss please feel free to PM me.
 
R K Singh
Ranch Hand
Posts: 5397
1
Spring Java
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Originally posted by omar khan:

I call it
Stockholm Syndrome


 
Ranch Hand
Posts: 313
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
I don't think India needs an ICBM. Who would they aim it at? The US? Does India really think the US plans to invade them? Why? India is a pretty good friend to the US. And would India really use nuclear weapons first?


Partially true. But, US threatened us with Nukes in 1971. Anyway, I don't see a conflict between India and US in the near future.
ICBM needed not to threaten US but to threaten China. I think, a missile with > 5000Km range is called ICBM. Now think about a missile stationed in Southern part of india and aiming Beijing or Northern most part of China. Chinese did too much damage to the Indian Security (and already holding large chunk of Indian territory and claiming a full Indian State).
Mr. Rajaram, what to say... Are you living in a fantacy world? Do you know why we are poor and called third world country? Just 300 years back we were one of the richest country in the world and was producing 25% of world output. Now everything is gone. Why? Because we were weak. So, everyone came and plunder, looted our country. Militarily strong country is the one will progress economically. Richness without Power will invite everyone to loot your richness. Learn from History.
 
R K Singh
Ranch Hand
Posts: 5397
1
Spring Java
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Originally posted by Sankar Subbiah:

Richness without Power will invite everyone to loot your richness.


And looters need not to be neighbours only.
 
San Su
Ranch Hand
Posts: 313
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Originally posted by Ravish Kumar:

And looters need not to be neighbours only.


I got your point..
 
R K Singh
Ranch Hand
Posts: 5397
1
Spring Java
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Originally posted by Sankar Subbiah:

Just 300 years back we were one of the richest country in the world ....


So what ... they left Train/roads/bridges.... and empty coffers
 
Paul McKenna
Ugly Redneck
Posts: 1006
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Originally posted by Ravish Kumar:


I call it Freedom from Slave Mentality
 
San Su
Ranch Hand
Posts: 313
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator


For hatred towards the north please read tamil political pamphlets. Politicians there have always garnered maximum votes by adopting anti central / anti northern stance. I am a native of that state.. I know the growing dissent for north indians quite well.


Ok Which polical party pamphlets you are talking about? I am from TN (madurai). As far as I know, some petty political parties like DK shows hatred towards Brahma(i?)ns. 99.9% people don't even give a damn about what they say. I never seen any major polical parties garners vote by adopting anti central/northern stance. Don't spread false information like this. Until the early 90's congress party (which was headed by a north Indian) was elected for parliment from TN. Anti Hindi/Anti Brahmin garnered votes in the 60's. Not now...


Yes you are correct. South India did have a freedom movement.. that is why I highlighted "Almost non-existent". The number of freedom fighters contributed by the south pales in comparison with those contributed by north.



Almost Non existance? Do you want me to give a list of freedom fighters from TN alone? There were so many from Kerala, Karnataka, Andra. Man, you need a History lesson. Do you need where the first freedom movement(called "chipai mutiny") started (Do you even know when?)?


Common misconception. British first established strong control in Madras and then Calcutta. Here is a link

St.George and his missionaries also first established themselves in Madras before any other portion of India.


British established forts in Bombay, Culcatta and Madras.But, Battle of Plassey changed the Indian History forever.
Didn't have time to respond all the points in your post. Will respond later...
 
R K Singh
Ranch Hand
Posts: 5397
1
Spring Java
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Originally posted by Sriraj Rajaram:

I call it Freedom from Slave Mentality



Oh .. I am "confused elite" Indian.
[ April 17, 2003: Message edited by: Ravish Kumar ]
 
Jason Menard
Sheriff
Posts: 6450
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Originally posted by Sankar Subbiah:
Mr. Rajaram, what to say... Are you living in a fantacy world? Do you know why we are poor and called third world country? Just 300 years back we were one of the richest country in the world and was producing 25% of world output. Now everything is gone. Why? Because we were weak. So, everyone came and plunder, looted our country. Militarily strong country is the one will progress economically. Richness without Power will invite everyone to loot your richness. Learn from History.


Sorry to jump in, but I couldn't help it in this case. It seems to me that you may have drawn some wrong conclusions, particularly about a strong military being necessary for economic progress. In modern times, I would point to Japan, South Korea, New Zealand, Germany, Australia, and Canada as but a few examples of nations with well developed strong economies while having relatively little military might and certainly no nuclear capabilities. Many of those nations have never even remotely approached what might be referred to as a military power. Historically, the US was an economic power long before it was a military power. For a counter-example I would highlight the Soviet Union, which was one of the two greatest military powers on the planet, but was economically hollow.
The factors that would seem to be required for significant economic development would include access to resources, a well developed infrastructure, an educated population, secular democracy, and capitalism. I'm sure there are others, but there is little evidence that a strong military and nuclear capability are some of those factors.
In this day and age particularly, the fascination and pride some have in their fledgling nuclear arsenals seems a bit on the perverse side. It would seem to me a mistake to think one might successfully enter a nuclear arms race with nations who have built up their nuclear arsenals since the 1950's. I think it would also be a mistake to place stock that a handful of ICBMs would deter any of these nuclear powers. For example, does anybody really believe Bejing would let India threaten them with nuclear weapons? The US isn't prepared to let North Korea threaten them, to the point of risking catastrophic war if necessary to remove the threat, so why would any other major nuclear power accept such a risk?
 
R K Singh
Ranch Hand
Posts: 5397
1
Spring Java
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Sorry to jump in
You are always welcome.
In modern times, I would point to Japan, South Korea, New Zealand, Germany, Australia, and Canada .....
Once God was telling one of angel that He has not given everything to all countries but it has divided it among all countries.
He said look, here is US of A, the graetest country today in world. Happy people, helping nature, lot of money but you see they dont have family values.
He said look at Saudi Arab, there is no water but its ful of oil.
God said, look this is India, they dont have money but still they are happy, they are divided in thousand religion,caste etc but still they are united, they have 100s of festival.. etc...
Angel asked "so this is perfect place in this world"
God said "see thy neighbors"
All these countries have good relation with their neighbors.
But still I will agree a bit, first we should have something to invite looters
I think first we should try to be economic power and simultaniously we should make our defence strong.
India needs to be strong in both, it just cant concentrate on one thing.
1962 war is example, when Pandit ji had total concentration towards infrastruture and economic growth of India and China attacked.
[ April 17, 2003: Message edited by: Ravish Kumar ]
 
Ranch Hand
Posts: 18944
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Originally posted by Ravish Kumar:
Sorry to jump in
You are always welcome.
In modern times, I would point to Japan, South Korea, New Zealand, Germany, Australia, and Canada .....
Once God was telling one of angel that He has not given everything to all countries but it has divided it among all countries.
He said look, here is US of A, the graetest country today in world. Happy people, helping nature, lot of money but you see they dont have family values.
He said look at Saudi Arab, there is no water but its ful of oil.
God said, look this is India, they dont have money but still they are happy, they are divided in thousand religion,caste etc but still they are united, they have 100s of festival.. etc...
Angel asked "so this is perfect place in this world"
God said "see thy neighbors"
All these countries have good relation with their neighbors in the world.
But still I will agree a bit, first we should have something to invite looters
I think first we should try to be economic power and simultaniously we should make our defence strong.
India needs to be strong in both, it just cant concentrate on one thing.
1962 war is example, when Pandit ji had total concentration towards infrastruture and economic growth of India and China attacked.


I was about to respond in the same line of thought. You beat me..
US had a natural advantage. It was seperated from the rest of the world by water and relatively less maniacs sorrounded by them. Japan, SouthKorea, etc.. were protected by US whereas in India's case... look around us.


But still I will agree a bit, first we should have something to invite looters


Land.. Future wars will be fought for water and land..
 
Paul McKenna
Ugly Redneck
Posts: 1006
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Allright, in retrospect my initial statement on the divide between NI and SI doesnt make half as much sense as I originally thought. I'll conceed that in light of overwhelming evidence I'm wrong. (It was a rant of mine which really shouldnt have been written, nevermind!) But! I refuse to conceed that military might is required for a strong and economically superior country. Especially in the case of India.
Also, lets not hij ack this thread..(Although I've contributed significantly to that). Lets carry on the discussion in the thread entitled "Military might proportional to Economic Might"
 
R K Singh
Ranch Hand
Posts: 5397
1
Spring Java
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Originally posted by <Sankar Subbiah>:

I was about to respond in the same line of thought. You beat me..


It does not matter who says truth
Satyamev Jayte [Truth will always win]
 
R K Singh
Ranch Hand
Posts: 5397
1
Spring Java
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Originally posted by Sriraj Rajaram:
I refuse to conceed that military might is required for a strong and economically superior country.


Agree with you, military is NOT required for a strong and economically superior country.
But think of place where, country remove army for 3 months because of ice freezing cold and enemy tries to capture those posts.
Yes I am talking abt Kargil
Dont you think we should have stronger defence.
We dont have luxary of concentrating toward one growth.
We have to put some effort also towards defence.
The money which we could use to establish industry have to be put in military to save Siachin post.
We cant let happen 1962 war again.
This is fact that we dont have choice.
 
Mapraputa Is
Leverager of our synergies
Posts: 10065
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
For a counter-example I would highlight the Soviet Union, which was one of the two greatest military powers on the planet, but was economically hollow.
What exactly do you mean by "economically hollow"?
While answering, please keep in mind that all the clothes wasn't made by cheap Chinese workers, and the USSR did not use illegal Mexican immigrants on dirty jobs, so dirty jobs had to be paid pretty well.
 
R K Singh
Ranch Hand
Posts: 5397
1
Spring Java
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Originally posted by Mapraputa Is:
economically hollow


I was expecting you
 
Jason Menard
Sheriff
Posts: 6450
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Originally posted by Mapraputa Is:
What exactly do you mean by "economically hollow"?


The Soviet economy could not sustain Soviet policies.
 
My honeysuckle is blooming this year! Now to fertilize this tiny ad:
the value of filler advertising in 2021
https://coderanch.com/t/730886/filler-advertising
reply
    Bookmark Topic Watch Topic
  • New Topic