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The Meaning Of Justice

 
Sheriff
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TP: So why do firemen run in to burning buildings to save other people's kids?
PD: That's their job, a very noble job, I would agree.

There are more volunteer firefighters in the US than there are paid firefighters in the US. As volunteers don't get paid, what is their motivation?
 
Leverager of our synergies
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Originally posted by Jason Menard:

Societally, man. Cosmicly, God.


Hey, drop this sexist language now!
Let's try again:

Originally posted by Jason Menard:
Societally, woman. Cosmicly, God.



See? Much better.
 
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Joel McNary: I do not believe in moral absolutism, but instead in morals relative to the soceity one finds himslef in.
So, suppose you are born and raised in a country where act A is considered moral. Now, you move to another country where act A is considered a mortal sin. Should you start believing that A is a sin? And don't you have some moral values that seem just natural to you, no matter how different cultures regard it? What I am leading to is that some things are absolute, and you don't want to adjust these absolutes if you want to remain truthful to yourself.
Yes, YHWH killed the first-borns in Egypt, but this could be seen as being in retaliation for the killing of the Israelite males by the prior Pharoh. This is the era of "eye-for-and-eye" type laws; the concept of the "Other Cheek" has not yet been intoduced into soceity.
That's exactly my point, -- it seems to me that the scripture preaches the transforming and often contradictory moral values. This is what I call the transitory, relative morals. And that's fine, if you consider the scripture as a study of human attitudes over time. However, to try to live by these rules and find the answers for "What's moral?" and "What's justice?" in the scripture is like catching a falling knife.

What's more, His behaviour changed over time (becoming repentant?) and should that also be taken into consideration (this whole redemption thing)?
Isn't God absolutely perfect? He was a bad boy, indeed, but why would he change his behaviour? Did he mature?
Major Tom Ferebee was acting under orders. You and I can sit here and discuss whether his actions were morally right or wrong, but we are not in that position.
For the purposes of the experiment, we are in that position. The goal is to establish the secular, logical, universal laws of morality. Major Tom Ferebee is a perfect case study.
If so, what context shall I judge him in? According to the New Testament, one is supposed to "Love your God with all your heart" and "Love your neighbor as your self;" this fellow did neither (atheist and draft dodger). My context for judging him is decidely different from your context.
Agreed. What I was trying to establish in the mental experiment is the context which is completely decoupled from any particular time frame, geographic location, culture, or existing laws and traditions. You are above God, politics, people, cultures, and beliefs. You are the morality of the Universe. That's your context. Would you change your rankings now?
[ April 28, 2003: Message edited by: Eugene Kononov ]
 
mister krabs
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Originally posted by Eugene Kononov:
This is exactly what I object to, -- this notion that humans cannot understand God and therefore should not question the morality of his actions. My God is Albert Einstein, and although it may seem that no one can understand his general theory of relativity, this is obviously not so.

This is a bad analogy because by definition you are saying that God created us and therefore since we can't even understand why he created us how can we judge him?
Imagine you are locked in a room with other people. Every few days, one of you is removed from the room by a hooded man with an ax. You hear the ax cutting something and the person never returns. You may think evil of this person but that is only because you do not see what is actually occurring. The man with the ax is cutting a big piece of cheese which he gives to the person that he took from the room and then he sends the person on his way.
To say God is evil because he kills people is absurd because we don't know what "kill" means. We don't have a clue what happens to us after we die so to say God is evil because people die is just an absurdity. All humans die at one point. Is God evil because the point is this week instead of next week?
But there is also the creation thing to think about. God made us out of nothing which gives him a certain amount of power over us. This isn't the power of a parent over a child but something much deeper than that.
 
Thomas Paul
mister krabs
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Originally posted by Eugene Kononov:
Isn't God absolutely perfect? He was a bad boy, indeed, but why would he change his behaviour? Did he mature?

Perhaps we did. Do you have the same rules for a three year old as you do for a ten year old? When God told us "an eye for an eye" we lived in a society that was an eye, arm, leg, and ear for an eye. God changed the rules to make the punishment fit the crime. Later when we had matured and learned that lesson he challenged us with a harder task... that of forgiveness. If we ever crack that one perhaps he will give us an even harder task.
 
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JN: To me, works alone do not save (as many "good-workers" believe), but faith is not enough by itself. Instead, faith is evidenced through works, as per Jesus's commandment "Love your neighbor as you would yourself." you do works because you love your neighbor because you have faith.
I absolutely agree with you on that Joel. If you read the epistle of St James, that is in essence what he is saying. The Born-Again groups seem to latch on to the letter to the Hebrews and the letters of St Paul (there is still some controversy as to the author of Hebrews though most attribute it to St Paul), as faith being the only requirement for salvation. What all of these epistles are saying is that faith is an engine that creates good deeds. I think Dante's words describe it well: Paradiso: Canto XXIV
 
John Smith
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Thomas Paul: Perhaps we did. Do you have the same rules for a three year old as you do for a ten year old? When God told us "an eye for an eye" we lived in a society that was an eye, arm, leg, and ear for an eye. God changed the rules to make the punishment fit the crime. Later when we had matured and learned that lesson he challenged us with a harder task... that of forgiveness. If we ever crack that one perhaps he will give us an even harder task.
This is a good thought, Thomas, and I appreciate it. However, it doesn't seem to check with my system of beliefs. It's true that I would not use the same language and style when communicating some moral idea to my daughter, as she turns from a 3-year-old to a 15-year-old, but I would be consistent with the moral idea itself. That is, I would not preach "eye for an eye" to her just to be replaced by "offer your other cheek" later on.
Eugene.
[ April 28, 2003: Message edited by: Eugene Kononov ]
 
Thomas Paul
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Originally posted by Eugene Kononov:
It's true that I would not use the same language and style when communicating some moral idea to my daughter, as she turns from a 3-year-old to a 15-year-old, but I would be consistent with the moral idea itself.

Really? At 3 you try to get your daughter to understand the concepts of self-sacrifice? At 3 I was just trying to get my daughter to stop biting her classmates!
 
Michael Morris
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At 3 I was just trying to get my daughter to stop biting her classmates!
Mine's 14, your daughter must be a prodigy to learn social concepts so early on!
 
John Smith
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Thomas Paul: At 3 you try to get your daughter to understand the concepts of self-sacrifice?
Umm, I would never preach that, -- self-sacrifice is evil in my system of moral values. Instead, I would teach her honestry, dignity, respect for others, independent thinking, freedom of choice, and most importantly, pursuit of happiness. Ask not what you can do for your country, ask what you can do for yourself.
[ April 29, 2003: Message edited by: Eugene Kononov ]
 
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