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The Scientific Miracles

 
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Originally posted by Mumbai cha bhau:
So which version is true?


It's true that quran is not saying mohammed is illiterate.but from the notes from his folowers,muslims are believing that Prophet Mohemmed was an illiterate.the notes are called as 'Hadis'.i am not very thorough in 'Hadis' books to give you evidences.but if you interested you can consult a islamic scholor.i'll try to provide information of the sources that you can know about islam more.
[name-calling deleted - Jim]
[ June 19, 2003: Message edited by: Jim Yingst ]
 
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The Bible is divided into the Old Testament and the New Testament. The Old Testament includes a variety of books that tell the history of the world from its creation until about 60 BCE. In addition to the histories (how historical they are is another story) there are fables and songs in the Old Testament.
The New Testamanet contains the four gospels (which are the stories of Jesus' life), the Acts of the Apostles (which tells the story of the early Christians after Jesus's death and resurrection) and the various letters from the early Church leaders to people in the various cities in the Roman empire.
 
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Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
The Bible is divided into the Old Testament and the New Testament. The Old Testament includes a variety of books that tell the history of the world from its creation until about 60 BCE. In addition to the histories (how historical they are is another story) there are fables and songs in the Old Testament.
The New Testamanet contains the four gospels (which are the stories of Jesus' life), the Acts of the Apostles (which tells the story of the early Christians after Jesus's death and resurrection) and the various letters from the early Church leaders to people in the various cities in the Roman empire.


And of course the quasi-prophetic Apocalypse or Book of Revelations which doesn't fit into any of the other categories that TP listed in the New Tesatment. Catholic theologians do not consider it to be a prophetic book as do most Protestant sects, but instead a history of the early Church written in the apocalyptic style of literature.
 
Thomas Paul
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The kinds of things that the person who started this thread is talking about are called post-dictions (as opposed to predictions). A post-diction is where you read something today and claim that it predicted something in the past. (Nostradamus is the perfect example. No one has been able to use anything written by Nostradamus to successfully predict the future.)
The claim is that the Koran has all these cool facts that we only just learned to be true. If that is true then there must be other "cool" facts in there that we haven't learned yet. So why not use the Koran to make an actual prediction as opposed to telling us stuff that we already know. Does the Koran predict life on Mars? Does the Koran tell us how to unify quantum physics and relativity? Or does it just tell us that rain comes from clouds?
 
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[This is in reference to a couple posts I just deleted - you guys know who you are]
Personally I think that anyone who insists on calling their opponents "stupid", especially in a religious discussion, is himself pretty darn stupid. I don't really care who started it; it has no place here, so knock it off, or your posts will be deleted. Thank you.
[ June 19, 2003: Message edited by: Jim Yingst ]
 
Anonymous
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Why discuss?


6-39
And they who reject Our communications are deaf and dumb, in utter darkness; whom God pleases He causes to err and whom He pleases He puts on the right way.



10-42
And there are those of them who hear you, but can you make the deaf to hear though they will not understand

 
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Originally posted by <Mr nice guy>:

Pattern for life means,if u believes in islam,u must believe in only one god(compulsory),u must pray 5 times in a day to worship to god(compulsory),u must take one month fasting in an year(compulsory).ladies and gents having their own dress codes(compulsory).u must give a certain percentage of ur income to poor people as zakath(compulsory).and lot more.
There are a lot of compulsory activities to become a muslim.so there is a pattern.every muslim should follow that pattern.there lot of noncompulsory activities also to make humen better,they called sunnath.


OPSSS... I am not needed here ..
But could not stop myself ...
Not wasting mine and your time, pattern of life changes with time because life changes with time.
>> ladies and gents having their own dress codes(compulsory)
Oppsss .. what will happen to fashion industry ...
May Allah/Jesus/[choose one of Hindu God/dess] makes you rational.
 
R K Singh
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Originally posted by <Nobody>:
Why discuss?



[I have nothing to say coz if I say then it might hurt someone's religious feelings.... but please let me smile]
 
Anonymous
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Hi Ravish,
Before answering your questiens,let me explain that,i am not a religeous scholor to answer minute questiens.It requires a deeper study.Only i can do is to give my openions.

Originally posted by Ravish Kumar
>> ladies and gents having their own dress codes(compulsory)
Oppsss .. what will happen to fashion industry ...


Before answering your questien,i like to know your assumption this issue.so i ask you questiens.
Why you are dressing?.Why people engages to public as dressed than naked?.

Originally posted by Ravish Kumar
May Allah/Jesus/[choose one of Hindu God/dess] makes you rational.


What is your basis of Rationality?.
 
Anonymous
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Originally posted by Ravish Kumar
[I have nothing to say coz if I say then it might hurt someone's religious feelings.... but please let me smile]


How come you know <nobody>'s religeon?.
 
Anonymous
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Originally posted by Ravish Kumar
[I have nothing to say coz if I say then it might hurt someone's religious feelings.... but please let me smile]


how come you know <Nobody>'s religeon?.It will never affect anybody's religeous feelings unless <Nobody> reveals his identity.
 
Anonymous
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problom with "< ... >" i used without quotes.i typed "<Nobody>" previousely without quotes but it did's displayed.
anything put within "<..>" will not display in forums??.
so Ravish,
i mean 'Nobody',the previous poster,and his religeon.you dont know his religeon.so how can you say it'll affect any perticuler person's religeous feelings?.
 
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From Michael Morris and Thomas Paul ---------
...Old Testament, New Testament, Canon, Hippo, Maccabees, Apocalypse etc.
---------------------------
Hmm...I guess it is a little more complicated then what I could digest in school, but i'll get there slowly Ok, so there is this Old Testament which was already there and followed by the Jews (i got this info from a friend of mine), then there is the New Testament which is kind of addition and probably amendments to the Old one based on Jesus's life, and then there is the Apocalypse. So Old Testament is as old as the Judaism itself? Who wrote it then? And what was there before that?

From Jim Yingst ---------
What I do find offensive is the way both BC and BCE dates are off by one (from my perspective) because they skip year zero
---------------------------
They probably chose not to introduce the zeroth year now as it will mess up a lot of historical records and books. Personally, I still prefer BC/AD just because I have always used it that way. And we are not shifting the frame of reference on the time line by using BCE/CE anyways.

From Mr. nice guy ---------
I am not very thorough in 'Hadis' books to give you evidences. ... i'll try to provide information of the sources that you can know about islam more.
---------------------------
Thanks. Please do provide sources where I can know, (not about Islam, but) more about the books of Quran and Hadis. Once I learn about the source itself, it'll be easier to understand and interpret its meanings Also if you can provide a few sources about this question asked by Jim Yingst- does the Muslim calendar refer to pre-Hegira dates? Is there a year zero? And how are the various dates pre and post refered to in Quran?
[ June 20, 2003: Message edited by: Mumbai cha bhau ]
 
R K Singh
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Originally posted by <Mr nice guy>:
Hi Ravish,


The only plus point of registering oneself I see is that one is able to edit his own post.
And obviously for MD you can use any fake name
Before answering your questien,i like to know your assumption this issue.so i ask you questiens.
OK, I take my words back.
May I ask the same question to you ?
i would like to know your assumption about this quote.
>> ladies and gents having their own dress codes(compulsory)
Why you are dressing?.Why people engages to public as dressed than naked?.
I think the only reason is to diffrentiate himself from normal animals.
Have you been to nude beach ??
How come you know 's religeon?.
When did I mention name of religion.
AW my statement might hurt all religious persons [regardless of what religion they practise]
i am not a religeous scholor to answer minute questiens.
Niether any one of us.. all are Java scholar
 
Anonymous
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[Since this was available at the original link posted I see no reason for such a huge post which is nothing more than a cut and paste job. Also there may be copyright issues with copying such a huge piece of text from another site. As someone suggested, if there is a part that you wish to discuss then please post it here and discuss it.]
[ June 21, 2003: Message edited by: Thomas Paul ]
 
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Thomas Paul
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Verily, We created man from the quintessence of mud. Then We placed him as a drop of sperm in a safe depository. Then We fashioned the drop of sperm in a safe depository. Then We fashioned the drop of sperm into a thing that clings, and then We fashioned the thing that clings into a chewed lump (of flesh), and We fashioned the chewed flesh into bones. Then We clothed the bones with (intact) flesh. Then We developed it into a different (form of) creation. So blessed be Allah, the best of creators.21
This is obviously an incorrect description of how human beings are formed in the womb.
First, there is no mention of the sperm fertilizing the egg. And sperm is not made of mud. Next, our bones do not form first and then are later covered by skin.
This is nothing more than a whimsical description of how human beings were originally formed and has nothing to do with the womb at all. It is an artistic and imaginative description that is no closer to truth than what you can get from any 5 year old when asked where do babies come from.
[ June 21, 2003: Message edited by: Thomas Paul ]
 
R K Singh
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Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
[QB][/QB]


When I have free time then I utilize ithere
 
Anonymous
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ravish,
i need your viepoints to provide my views because i actually likes to answer.
 
Anonymous
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Although religion is no longer dominates everyday life in Western society, Islam becomes the fastest-growing religion in America and in the world?

A NATION CHALLENGED: AMERICAN MUSLIMS; Islam Attracts Converts By the Thousand, Drawn Before and After Attacks
By JODI WILGOREN
Source: The New York Times: October 22, 2001, Monday
Section: National Desk
http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/3016/fastest.htm
"Islam is the fastest-growing religion in America, a guide and pillar of stability for many of our people..." Hillary Rodman Clinton, Los Angeles Times, May 31, 1996, p.3
http://www.whyislam.org/discoverwhy.htm
http://www.islam-guide.com
##########
Famous people are affected too.
"Yusuf Islam" Former Jazz Singer "Cat Stevens" Came to Islam
Hear his story as told him . . . read more
http://www.islamtomorrow.net/converts/yusuf_islam.htm
 
Thomas Paul
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I found another site that says Scientology is the fastest growing religion in the US. Another site says that Wicca is the fastest growing religion in the US. I also found sites that show that Baha'i and Hinduism are growing faster that Islam.
The figures that claim that Islam is the fastest growing religion are based, not on an independent survey, but rather by a study by the Council on American-Islamic Relations which got its figures by asking around at mosques. They then multiplied the number they got from the mosques by 3.5. Why? Because they figured that a lot of Moslems don't attend mosques! But independent studies show a different story. They show that rather than the 6 million claimed by CAIR, the real figure is closer to 2 million and perhaps as low as 1 million.
Here is a Washington Post story on the inflated Islamic numbers:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node=&contentId=A7459-2001Nov23
This is from an article at the Islamic Foundation of North America web site:
How many Muslims have been lost to Islam in the last fifty years here? Tens of thousands. How many are lost every year in our own times? Tens of thousands. The only reason Islam is still growing here, by and large, is because of a steady stream of immigration. But when that dries up, the assimilation will dwindle our community down to nothing. It's like we have a bucket with a hole in the bottom. We keep pouring new immigrants in, but so many are leaking out and are lost forever.
Doesn't sound like a rapidly growing, healthy religion to me.
[ June 24, 2003: Message edited by: Thomas Paul ]
 
Thomas Paul
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Here's the debunking of a claim that the Koran predicts the speed of light:
http://answering-islam.org/Science/c_in_quran.html
 
Thomas Paul
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Originally posted by <saraja>:
Famous people are affected too.
"Yusuf Islam" Former Jazz Singer "Cat Stevens" Came to Islam
Hear his story as told him . . . read more
http://www.islamtomorrow.net/converts/yusuf_islam.htm


And how many people have left Islam? Isn't it interesting that when famous people convert to Islam and speak out no Christian leader declares that they must be killed but when famous Moslems leave Islam and speak out Moslem leaders demand that they be killed.
Why is Islam so afraid of conversion that they must arrest people who try to discuss Christianity with Moslems? Why do they ban Bibles? This doesn't seem to be the actions of a healthy religion that can attract members through its own virtues. Can a religion that keeps members through fear of arrest and torture really a religion to be proud of?
 
Jim Yingst
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[TP]: Here's the debunking of a claim that the Koran predicts the speed of light:
Wow. That original article by Dr. Mansour Hassab-Elnaby is just amazingly bad science. The handwaving to justify ignoring the motion of the earth around the sun (but not the moon around the earth) because of special relativity was my favorite. :roll: I have to assume that the "Dr." refers to a field other that astronomy. It's a pity that scientifically-inclined muslims don't seem to be protesting the inclusion of Hassab-Elnaby's article at the islamicity site, as it really seems to undermine the credibility of the site. To be fair I haven't looked much at the rest of the site, so I don't know how representative Hassab-Elnaby's article is. (Though the "rain comes from clouds" previously pointed out by Eugene doesn't exactly get my hopes up.) Too bad...
 
R K Singh
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You are right
who is this you
 
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As we are debating here, let there be no misunderstanding of my intentions. This post is not an assault on Christianity or any other religion.
It is indispensable for me to look for the truth and study comparative religion because if I would like to know whether a religion is true or false, I should not depend on my emotions, feelings, or traditions. Rather, I should depend on my reason and intellect. When God sent the prophets, He supported them with miracles and evidences, which proved that they were truly prophets, send by God and that the religion they came with was true.
My question is do you believe in the information declared in the following sites or not:

IS THE BIBLE GODS WORD?
http://www.jamaat.net/bible/Bible1-3.html
The Bible - A Closer Look!
http://www.todayislam.com/bible.htm
A List of Biblical Contradictions
http://sultan.org/articles/biblecon.txt
THE REAL STORY OF MARY
http://geocities.com/SoHo/Gallery/3001/storyofmary.htm
Christ in Islam
http://home2.swipnet.se/~w-20479/Christ.htm
THE TRUTH ABOUT JESUS
http://sultan.org/articles/Jesus.html
Who Was Jesus According to Jesus?
http://www.islaminfo.com
500 Errors
http://www.jamaat.net/
Examining The Bible
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Bible/
http://www.islamland.org/articles1/a009.htm
 
R K Singh
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Originally posted by <No Misunderstanding>:
As we are debating here,


Who is debating ??
AW now serious note :
What was your Khuda was doing all those years before chosing Mohammad as his communicator?
Why did he choose Mohammad not me ??
Why did Mohammad married a 8 yr old girl at the age of 40+ ??
Do you want to know more such dirty truths abt Mohammad ??
Look Mr. Annonymous, WTF is your point?
Are you trying to say that Kuran is words of God ?
Who the hell is this God .. Mohammad ?? Oh he is Prophet. Then let him be normal man who manipulated foolish people and some fools are still following him blindly.
Open your eyes, its not the age when Kuran was written.
IMDO Whoever talks abt Islam on net is infidel as Kuran nowhere mention to use net to spread Islam
 
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Kumar :Some foolish people in India pray to cows why not to donkey?
 
R K Singh
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Originally posted by <To Ravish Kumar>:
Kumar :Some foolish people in India pray to cows why not to donkey?



DO you kill soemone who gives you money.
This could be one reason to pray Cow because it gives you milk.
For a Dhobi[Laundry man], donkey is God.
OR might be in Islam you are taught to kill who helps you ...
But if you want to tell me that Hinduism is not so great then I agree with you.. but at the same time society has changed itselves with time.
You wont be knowing more than me about bad points of Hinduism.
Its of no use to say that I am better than you.
I dont see any point of these postings here ..
If he wants to say that Kuran is God words then why he wants others to belive in this .. if he belives in it then well and good... be happy.
What is the use of telling here ??
 
R K Singh
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Who is god for Devdasi's?(hindu religeous prostitutes).if your 'god law' is true,the food provider is god.so what is providing food for devdasis?.It's true that 'Penis' is another hindu god.


Not only Devdasi's.. there are/WERE 1000 more bad things in ancient India.
You know only the cream of those things.
AW washing your penis before going to Masjid is OK but you cant pray to a penis
Whats wrong in praying to Penis.
You, I and everyone else in this world is here because of this Penis.. Not because of your God
[Can you see P of Penis is in caps as G of God is in Caps]
Do you know what is the relation between Kamdev and Kamaynee ??
Hell you even dont know the ABCD of bad points of Hinduism..
What is your point?
Prostitution is legal in some coutries, so whats wrong if it was legal in ancient India also..
Come up with good points .. I know more bad things in Hinduism/ancient India .. and I know worst things in Islam other religions ..
But why are we having this mud sheding ??
DO you have anything which is worth to listen ..
The thing which you have to accept that there is no God .. and you will be the happiest person in this world.
 
Jim Yingst
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My question is do you believe in the information declared in the following sites or not:
Irrelevant to me; I'm an atheist. Or agnostic. Whatever. Point is, while a number of the respondents here are Christian, a number of others are not. This discussion was about the merits of the arguments claiming various "scientific proofs" of Islam. Changing the subject to "why christianity is mistaken" just implies that the original arguments were too weak to stand up to scrutiny, in my opinion. Note - I'm not saying anything about whether Islam itself is right or wrong; I'm just saying that the pro-Islam arguments discussed here so far are wholly unconvincing from a scientific perspective. Sorry.
 
Anonymous
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Originally posted by Jim Yingst:
I'm just saying that the pro-Islam arguments discussed here so far are wholly unconvincing from a scientific perspective.Sorry


I am not providing my text.i am quoting from one source :
-----------------------------------
Allah draws attention in particular to peoples' fingertips:
Does man imagine We will not reassemble his bones?

Yes, We are able to put together in perfect order the very tips of his fingers. (Surat al-Qiyama: 3-4)


Bringing an utterly decayed human body back to life is very easy for Allah. Now, examine your fingertips. Everyone's fingerprints are unique to himself. If you had a twin, his/her fingerprints would also be different. Every person who is alive or who has ever lived in this world has a unique set of fingerprints. That is why they are almost as unique as the identity of a person.
Allah the Almighty can re-create us, down to all these fine details. Meanwhile, we need to keep in mind that the significance of fingerprints and that the fact that every person has a set of fingerprints peculiar to himself was only discovered in the nineteenth century. But Allah drew attention to the tips of the fingers 1,400 years ago in the Qur'an.
----------------------------
 
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Originally posted by <beNerves>:
[anti-Hindu attacks retroactively deleted by Jim]


I am curious, do you have something against using commas or any other forms of punctuation, beNerves? I can't make sense of anything that you said, although you are obviously trying to communicate something.
[ June 28, 2003: Message edited by: Jim Yingst ]
 
Jim Yingst
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"beNerves", your post has been deleted because it was an offensive attack on Hindus. Let's keep this friendly.
 
R K Singh
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Meanwhile, we need to keep in mind that the significance of fingerprints and that the fact that every person has a set of fingerprints peculiar to himself was only discovered in the nineteenth century. But Allah drew attention to the tips of the fingers 1,400 years ago in the Qur'an.


What is the use of Allaha's word if human has to find it by himself and without help of Allaha
Dear, its all about interpretaion.. you can interpreate this by any matter.
Yes, We are able to put together in perfect order the very tips of his fingers. (Surat al-Qiyama: 3-4)
I think Allaha wants to say that everyman has been given something artistic which he can do perfectly by his finger tips.
[ June 28, 2003: Message edited by: Ravish Kumar ]
 
Anonymous
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Originally posted by Ravish Kumar
Dear, its all about interpretaion.. you can interpreate this by any matter.
I think Allaha wants to say that everyman has been given something artistic which he can do perfectly by his finger tips.


How you are going to interpret this?.

-----------------------------------

Many of you know that our world and the other planets have orbits. In fact, not only do the planets in our Solar System have orbits, but also all heavenly bodies in the universe have their separate orbits. That is, they all move in very precisely computed paths. This scientific truth that scientists have only recently uncovered was revealed 1,400 years ago:
It is He Who created the night and the day, and the sun and the moon. They swim along, each in an orbit. (Surat al-Anbiya: 33)
As is also seen in this verse, Allah informs us about a scientific fact which was only discovered recently. At the time the Qur'an was revealed, people did not know that heavenly bodies moved in constant orbits. But Allah knows everything and tells what He wills to His slaves.
-----------------------------------------------
 
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To Jim Yingst,
I can see how much you hate Islam MR SHRIFE you didn�t see how much he attack
Islam and Mohammed and you keep silent, suppose we have good honest shrife but I didn�t think so. I can excuse you cos you are one of who hate people regarding for there Religions
 
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I can see how much you hate Islam MR SHRIFE
Who is Mr. Shrife? Sorry, I can't parse this.
I don't hate Islam. I understand if you don't believe me, but it's true. I do have a low tolerance for pseudoscience masquerading as science, but that's different. The fact that some pro-Islam arguments are fallacious doesn't disprove Islam; it just means those particular arguments are unconvincing.
If are offended because you think that Islam is under attack here, well, I'm sorry. If you like we can avoid talking about these "convincing" arguments that some pro-Islam people have been trying to bring to our attention. But if you want to discuss these arguments, then accept that some people may not agree. And if they don't agree, don't making statements about the way Hindus smell, or mocking their religion. If you're offended by what someone says, then make a complaint without making offensive statements yourself. Thanks.
 
John Smith
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Originally posted by <benerves>:
To Jim Yingst,
I can see how much you hate Islam MR SHRIFE you didn�t see how much he attack
Islam and Mohammed and you keep silent, suppose we have good honest shrife but I didn�t think so. I can excuse you cos you are one of who hate people regarding for there Religions


"benerves",
We've had many religious discussions here in MD, and while many of us have strong opinions and often opposite points of view, we managed to learn from each other and discuss the issues as mature adults, in a civilized manner. That is, until you came along. Just take a deep breath and think who is honest and who is the hater here.
Eugene.
 
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Mr Nice Guy: that quote is interesting. However, it was already "known" prior to the Qu'ran (by people such as the Greeks) that the Sun and Moon were in "orbit" around the Earth. It was not widely understood that the Moon orbits the Earth which orbits the Sun which orbits the galactic center which probably orbits some local group of galaxies; I forget. (Actually some people such Aristarchus had already suggested the possibility that the Earth orbited the Sun, but this was not widely accepted.) It's not clear what exactly is meant by Surat al-Anbiya: 33 - it's entirely possible (from the translation here) that it just meant the Sun and Moon orbit the Earth - and if so, that knowledge was (a) not new, and (b) wrong. If the text had more clearly implied a heliocentric (and/or "galactocentric" or whatever) system, that would have been fairly impressive. But unfortunately it does not - the text gives an ambiguous statement with you are retroactively interpreting with modern knowledge. It's another example of "post-diction" as Thomas discusses above.
[ June 28, 2003: Message edited by: Jim Yingst ]
 
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