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whippersnapper
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MI: I'll try to drag Matola into this conversation, he must know better.
I've always wondered what it would feel like to be conjured.
MI: suhari sushit
JD: Could you put the correct pronunciation here for me?
Howzabout I just spell it a little differently and break it into syllables. Caps indicate stress.
puh - RAH -- soo - khah - REE -- soo - SHEET'
Say "sheet" not "shit" and you'll be fine (or at least understood). The sound of the second "i" just doesn't occur in General American. (Ok, I *swear* I've heard this sound from some folks in North Carolina as the 4th vowel out of 9 in their pronunciation of "RTI" (a company I worked for many years ago), but that doesn't help us out very much today.) It's a gorgeous, very (but not exclusively) Russian sound -- a tense high central unrounded vowel (here, also, I would argue -- this is a point of controversy! -- ever so slightly diphthongoidized).
Anyhow, trying to write in any greater detail about how to pronounce the above produced the kind of text that only an articulatory phonetician could love. Map, just give the guy a call on the phone already!
MI: Suhari (pl from "suhar'")
"cracker, zwieback, biscuit, dried crust; rusk"

I've successfully translated it as "croutons" before. (Or, at least, the only time I've made croutons in the presence of a Russian (I did them in the oven, not in a saute pan, because they were to be later made into turkey stuffing), she referred to them as "sukhari" (this was in Hungary).)
MI: There is an idiom in Russian -- suhari sushit' , which means "to dry su-ha-ri" (which is a tautology, because "suhari" is derived from the root "dry", so it's like "to dry dries")
If by "tautology" you mean the nonsense loop created by stating that one is in the process of creating something that by definition has already been created: "how can you be drying something that has already been dried," I would counter that it's no more tautological than "I'm making a sandwich" ("how can it be a sandwich if you haven't finished it yet?" you're asking) because things often figuratively stand in for their constituent parts, unfinished states, etc. Why should this particular example bother you?
If by "tautology" you mean the repetition of a word root (which is a (the most?) common meaning of the Russian word "tavtologiia" but a (far?) less common meaning of the English "tautology" -- we *might* even prefer "redundancy" for this), I think you'll find the English-speaking ear far less offended by this than the Russian.
(In fact some of us relish in our "tautologies" (elegant variation is *so* not-this-century). Just the other day, in response to my wife's asking me the cause of my agitation upon arrival home from my daily commute, I responded that I was upset that I had to brake hard in heavy traffic because I was cut off by some old geezer geezing along in his geezmobile.)
MI: because "suhari" is derived from the root "dry"
More the other way 'round.
The root is {sukh}, and it realizes as /kh/ in sukhari:
{sukh|ar,|#} ->
/sukhar'/ , /sukhar'a/ , etc.
But it realizes as "sh" (let's use "S" to transcribe that) in sushit':
{sukh|,i|t,} ->
/suSit'/ , etc.

Or in other words, you do realize, Map, that the "root" form of "dry" is "sukh" and that "sush" is a mutated form?
[ July 20, 2003: Message edited by: Michael Matola ]
 
slicker
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That was extremely interesting. Thank you!
 
Leverager of our synergies
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puh - RAH -- soo - khah - REE -- soo - SHEET'
You even added "pora"! I was thinking in what context John can use "sukari sushit", which is only a part of a phrase, but was distracted. "Pora sukhari sushit" means "It's time to dry sukhari" which can be used when somebody is in trouble. For example, John's coworker calls Bush "an idiot", here it's a good idea to say "pora sukhari sushit".
But I cannot resist to add that the last sound, "t", in "suchit" should be softened as compared to "normal" t. It should sould like "t" in "TV", "tee-vee", only without following "ee".
If by "tautology" you mean the repetition of a word root
This what I mean, yes.
In fact some of us relish in our "tautologies"
Ah, but this case is different, I believe. You enjoy your tautologies when you make them on the spot, here the pleasure is in being creative. We do this in Russian too. But "sikhari sushit" is a fixed form, no particular enjoyment involved. I did not even realize its tautologiness until this thread, even though I've heard this expression many times.
Or in other words, you do realize, Map, that the "root" form of "dry" is "sukh" and that "sush" is a mutated form?
Hmmm... I did not. I really have no idea which roots are "basic" and which are derived. Is it always that "kh" sound becomes "sh" and not the other way around? I found an interesting table in P.H. Mattews' "Morphology" book (it is given while discussing modern Greek ).
"To sum up, therefore, the scale of dominance might be shown by a diagram of the following form:

In which vowel x is weaker than vowel y if there are one or more arrows leading from x to y. In phonetic terms, the more sonorous open and back vowels "win" over the less sonorous mid/close and front."
How universal are these metamorphoses? As I can tell, in Russian unstressed "o" becomes "a", and often unstressed "e" becomes "i". Regarding "o -> u", this isn't something I can easily come up with, but I know a word where... Grrr, how can I even name this letter? The one after "e" :roll: Michael M. knows what I am talking about, became the letter before the last. :roll: :roll: For (MD - Michael Matola), these two letters are pretty close to "o" and "u".
So I wonder if there is some cross-lingual pattern about "kh" turning into "sh" or not.
[ July 21, 2003: Message edited by: Mapraputa Is ]
 
Mapraputa Is
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If by "tautology" you mean the repetition of a word root
Now why on the Earth did you say "the repetition" and not "a repetition"?
I would say "a repetition" and would be damn proud that at least I figured out this one case! Well, you know what? From now on, I I am not going to use articles AT ALL! JUST SAY NO! NO MORE ARTICLES!
-----------------
"What does being a linguist do to you? Well, first of all you discover that you can't speak any language fluently, because you constantly stop to analyze your speech - and others'. If you've ever seen a person falling into a lethargic state in the middle of the sentence, you know what I mean. Being a bilingual is different, but with similar frustrations when trying to produce a fluent "official version" of whatever language you're trying to speak. I am a bilingual linguist and this is the combination that spells disaster."
http://glosses.net/archives/000102.php#000102
 
Wanderer
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Now why on the Earth did you say "the repetition" and not "a repetition"?
In this case, the difference in meaning seems trivial enough that the primary consideration should be: choose the one most likely to drive Map insane. I mean, more insane.
 
Sheriff
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Originally posted by Mapraputa Is:
From now on, I I am not going to use articles AT ALL! JUST SAY NO! NO MORE ARTICLES!



You mean up until now it's just been selective non-use of articles?
 
Mapraputa Is
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Look here!
http://www.nobodyhere.com/

Point to links ("e-cards", "chat") and watch picture!
P.S. In case you wonder why Map posted it in this thread -- just to make you wonder why I posted it in this thread.
 
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