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Why They miss the Cold War!

 
mister krabs
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Originally posted by Michael Ernest:
Hey, we could cut down on abortion clinic bombers that way, too. Just shut down a few fundamentalist Christian schools here and we'd see a whole lot less violence!

Why? How many abortion clinics have been bombed lately? Or is this just further example of the famous Michael Ernest wit?
I would bet that more violence is perpetrated by public school attendees that Christian school attendees in any case.
 
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TP: I would bet that more violence is perpetrated by public school attendees that Christian school attendees in any case.
I'd shut down all public schools anyway, -- less violence would be just an add-on benefit. There was a famous Russian stand up comic Mikhail Zhvanetskiy during the cold war. In response to the Soviet government explanation that the reason there is not enough food in the country was because the government stocked the food in case of a war, Zhvanetskiy offered a one liner: "So let's go to war".
[ November 06, 2003: Message edited by: Eugene Kononov ]
 
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Originally posted by Michael Ernest:
Hey, we could cut down on abortion clinic bombers that way, too. Just shut down a few fundamentalist Christian schools here and we'd see a whole lot less violence!


a) What "fundamentalist Christian" schools? Is there a problem with these? Is there a link between any "fundamentalist Christian" schools and terrorism? Are these schools terrorist factories? Is there a link between international terrorism and "fundamental Christianity"? Are "fundamentalist Christian" schools preaching intolerance and death to non-believers? If so, which sect of Christianity is teaching this?
b) Do you seriously believe there is any parallel to be drawn between a Western "fundamentalist Christian" school (assuming for a moment that there might be some) and the Wahabi madrassas in the Middle-East, Africa, and Asia, or are you just trying to draw a false analogy?
 
High Plains Drifter
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You asked all the right questions; good for you. Now here are some other excerpts from the same article:
One problem, (Rumsfeld) said, is the lack of knowledge about how many anti-American terrorists are being turned out.
"There is no way to measure it because you don't know what's happening in each one of these radical cleric schools . . . how many people are coming out of these radical madrassa schools," he said on ABC's "This Week."

Well bully for Mr. Rumsfeld. He's heard of the madrassas and he's worried about them, but he can't actually claim they are a problem because he has no idea how many people are listening to the teachings, much less what those teachings are really about. But they're talking radical!
Rumsfeld said, "We need to find ways to make sure we're winning the battle of ideas and that we're reducing the number of terrorists . . . that are being taught to go out and murder and kill innocent men, women and children."
Excerpted from this link:
To the plaintiffs, the anti-abortion activists who use wanted-man-style posters and Web sites to intimidate and threaten abortion providers are terrorists. The defense likens them to civil-rights crusaders, engaged in political debate protected under the First Amendment.
The parallel doesn't seem so thin to me.
Again from the Rumsfeld article:
Rumsfeld focused solely on radical Islamic madrassas as the breeding ground for the next generation of terrorists and did not include such things as the actions of U.S. troops in Iraq or their presence in other Muslim countries, which were recently used in a message by Osama bin Laden designed to recruit terrorists.
I'm sure it would water down Mr. Rumsfeld's message to admit that US occupation plays some part, however unavoidable, in breeding the next generation of terrorists. Nor would it help his cause to at least entertain the idea that such schools are a symptom, and not entirely the disease itself.
It's those damn schools, I tell ya! We don't know what they're doing in there, and we don't know how many are coming out, but they're bound to be terrorists, so let's nip them in the bud. Guilty til proven innocent.
I wonder who's monitoring the list of books I checked out today, and the library I got them from.
 
Jason Menard
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You asked all the right questions; good for you.
But no answers?
Well bully for Mr. Rumsfeld. He's heard of the madrassas and he's worried about them, but he can't actually claim they are a problem because he has no idea how many people are listening to the teachings, much less what those teachings are really about. But they're talking radical!
Maybe Rumselfd doesn't know, but it seems to be pretty much common knowledge otherwise.
To the plaintiffs, the anti-abortion activists who use wanted-man-style posters and Web sites to intimidate and threaten abortion providers are terrorists. The defense likens them to civil-rights crusaders, engaged in political debate protected under the First Amendment.
The parallel doesn't seem so thin to me.

Your analogy was about some fictional "fundamentalist Christian" schools. There is not even a hint that these activists you are referring to are a) fundamentalist Christians, b) a byproduct of fundamentalkist Christian teachings nevermind schools, or c) organized under religious pretexts. In fact, many anti-abortion types take their stand not on religious grounds but on moral grounds.
Again from the Rumsfeld article:
Rumsfeld focused solely on radical Islamic madrassas as the breeding ground for the next generation of terrorists and did not include such things as the actions of U.S. troops in Iraq or their presence in other Muslim countries, which were recently used in a message by Osama bin Laden designed to recruit terrorists.
I'm sure it would water down Mr. Rumsfeld's message to admit that US occupation plays some part, however unavoidable, in breeding the next generation of terrorists. Nor would it help his cause to at least entertain the idea that such schools are a symptom, and not entirely the disease itself.

The author of the quote is introducing an unsupported supposition, which is that people are joining the ranks of the terrorists not out of religious belief but due to our actions (the cry of the apologist).
It's those damn schools, I tell ya! We don't know what they're doing in there, and we don't know how many are coming out, but they're bound to be terrorists, so let's nip them in the bud. Guilty til proven innocent.
Again, what these schools are doing is pretty much common knowledge. And yeah, any institution which preaches fanatical hatred and intolerance towards us (aside from the UN and EU of course) is a threat. As far as guilty until proven innocent... wars aren't fought in a courtroom.
I wonder who's monitoring the list of books I checked out today, and the library I got them from.
I'm not sure, but I would recommend you don your tin-foil helmet ASAP.
[ November 06, 2003: Message edited by: Jason Menard ]
 
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It just occurred to me that these madrassas are "medrese"! (Russian spelling). They have beed around since Middle Ages. There are two in Moscow. Here is a site for one in Kazan (also in Russia). They admit high school graduates, teach them 5 years and then give qualification as teacher of Islam (several subcategories which are unfamiliar to me), teacher of Arabic, Arabic translator/interpreter.
Again, what these schools are doing is pretty much common knowledge.
Uncommon knowledge:


Professor Ahmad (Hampton University, an expert on Islamic issues and development in South Asia) believes the madrassas constitute the core of the cultural-religious complex of Islam in south Asian societies. Estimates of the number range from 6,000 to 10,000 madrassas. The model for the modern madrassas developed in India during the 19th century. The structure of madrassas throughout the region are homogenous in what they teach and text they read. Teachings are divided into two categories: transmitted sciences and rational sciences. Rational sciences, the majority of what is taught, includes logic, philosophy, rhetoric, dialectical reasoning, mathematics, Arabic and Persian grammar and literature, and traditional medicine. Many of the texts are from the 13th and 14th centuries. There are three levels of education. First is elementary where reading the Koran is the major task. The second level looks at selected text, and the highest level is where the complete curriculum is taught. The number of students in Pakistan is 600,000, for India it 1.5 million, and in Bangladesh there are 3 million students. They generally come from poor families who cannot send their children to modern schools. For many families, it is the only educational opportunity for their children. Madrassas are not funded by the state, but rather the community, so the government has little authority over them.
Professor Ahmad believes, however, the notion madrassas are frozen in an ancient mode of teaching is incorrect. They have changed, he said. Some now use computers and have institutionalized some of their testing practices. He said since the 1950's, small businessmen have been increasingly the financial backbone of the madrassas system. Madrassas have also expanded their financial base by moving to industrial cities. Funding sources became internationalized following the Iranian revolution and the invasion of Afghanistan by the Soviet Union. Professor Ahamd said the vast majority of madrassas shy away from politics as morally inferior, and a distraction from performing their traditional role. Following the Soviet invasion, some of the madrassas in the Pakistan had a large percentage of Afghanistan refugees. He said most of the madrassas associated with militancy were established in 1980's. He believes those madrassas associated with terrorism were in fact terrorist camps that used madrassas style education as a cover for their actual activities. He noted the infrastructure created by the Afghan jihad against the Soviets served as the basis for a second jihad in Kashmir. Islamic militancy linked with sectarian strife in the region. Currently, he said, the agenda of Pakistani authorities is to push the madrassas to adhere to their traditional mandate of teaching the Koran. The Pakistani government is also trying to control the influx of foreign students and foreign funding of madrassas, and to force the madrassas from serving as a focal point for creating new militants.
http://www.worldbank.org/wbi/B-SPAN/sub_muslim_education.htm

 
Michael Ernest
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You asked all the right questions; good for you.
But no answers?
Maybe Eleison Zeitgeist has them. My pockets are empty.
Maybe Rumselfd doesn't know, but it seems to be pretty much common knowledge otherwise.
Mm, training fighters with clandestine funding. Teaching them to hate the enemy. Shocking practices we would never be associated with. I still don't see the "How to Bomb Discos Full of Australians" as an explicit part of the program.
There is not even a hint that these activists you are referring to are a) fundamentalist Christians, b) a byproduct of fundamentalkist Christian teachings nevermind schools, or c) organized under religious pretexts. In fact, many anti-abortion types take their stand not on religious grounds but on moral grounds.
As do many anti-American types, Jason. But I never intended my wisecrack to be taken as literally as you're taking it. But here's my point; I don't know what goes on in those schools really, and I don't know how many potential clinic bombers they produce, but if I consider them the actual source of clinic bombings, I'll treat them as a problem anyway. The madrassas may be a far more direct and apparent problem, but no one's telling you which of these schools is causing which acts of terror in the world, are they?
The author of the quote is introducing an unsupported supposition, which is that people are joining the ranks of the terrorists not out of religious belief but due to our actions (the cry of the apologist).
I don't see it quite that way. I think the author is saying Rumsfeld would consider no other explanations for the "creations of new terrorists" other than the madrassas. I see them as a response to various political conditions. The author implies Rumsfeld only thinks stops these madrassas will stop terrorism from spreading.
Again, what these schools are doing is pretty much common knowledge. And yeah, any institution which preaches fanatical hatred and intolerance towards us (aside from the UN and EU of course) is a threat.
Oh I think you miss the point. Terrorists have no one militia, and they have no one target.
As far as guilty until proven innocent... wars aren't fought in a courtroom.
They might not start there, but all the big ones in my lifetime have ended up there.
 
Mapraputa Is
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Here is a good article about madrasas, I am only half through, but it's really good so far.
 
Mapraputa Is
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This article poses an interesting question:
Muslim states are now calling upon Western governments to support madrasa reform through financial aid. The proposed recipe for reform is to add contemporary subjects alongside the traditional religious sciences in madrasa curriculum. But Madrasas will probably survive these reform efforts, just as they survived the introduction of Western education during colonial rule. Can learning science and math, for example, change the worldview shaped by a theology of conformity?
But this describes public education system in the fUSSR! Science and math plus communistic doctrine and conformity. Which will prevail, I would say that the division lies in human nature, rather than "communistic ideology or theology" vs. "free thinking". Some minds prefer (and always will) ideology and theology, and some will prefer free thinking no matter what.
--------------------
"Democracy really is advanced citizenship." - Joe Pluta.
 
Mapraputa Is
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Can learning science and math, for example, change the worldview shaped by a theology of conformity?
My answer is "yes". I remember when I was 10th grade student, I read in some statistics books (published by communists -- it must be 1984-85) that there are more college students per thousand of population soul in the USA then in the USSR. Up to that data I believed that free college education *is* an advantage of the communistic system, but if in the final account there are more people who can pay for college education in capitalistic countries than what the government quota in communistic countries can provide, this makes you wonder, no?
--------------------
"Democracy really is advanced citizenship." - Joe Pluta.
 
Thomas Paul
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Can learning science and math, for example, change the worldview shaped by a theology of conformity?
I would say yes. Once you teach people to think critically it's hard to get them to stop.
 
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Originally posted by Mapraputa Is:
[QB]Can learning science and math, for example, change the worldview shaped by a theology of conformity?
My answer is "yes". I remember when I was 10th grade student, I read in some statistics books (published by communists -- it must be 1984-85) that there are more college students per thousand of population soul in the USA then in the USSR. Up to that data I believed that free college education *is* an advantage of the communistic system, but if in the final account there are more people who can pay for college education in capitalistic countries than what the government quota in communistic countries can provide, this makes you wonder, no?QB]



Not only does the US educate a larger proportion of the population than do any of the countries with 'free' education, but the quality of the education is higher. A survey in one of the news magazines revealed that the average figure spent in the US is $20K a year. Canada spends an average of $15K per-student, and the UK follows at $11K. France spends $7K and that includes expenditure on their world-class elite polytechniques. I'm sure the average figure for all French students is significantly lower. And the non-elite French universities are reliably reported to be abysmal. As are those of Italy, which spends $6K per student. Having lived in Italy I know some Italian college students. They would love to study in the US for this reason.
You get what you pay for....
 
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Alfred (E.?) Neumann: "Not only does the US educate a larger proportion of the population than do any of the countries with 'free' education, but the quality of the education is higher."
I don't think higher education anywhere has very good quality, at least not since fifty years ago. With respect to K-12 education (one of the few aspects of American society that is highly socialized), the quality we provide is mediocre (but very good compared with most 3rd world countries).

"A survey in one of the news magazines revealed that the average figure spent in the US is $20K a year. Canada spends an average of $15K per-student, and the UK follows at $11K. France spends $7K and that includes expenditure on their world-class elite polytechniques."
OK, so you're talking about higher education.

"And the non-elite French universities are reliably reported to be abysmal. As are those of Italy, which spends $6K per student. Having lived in Italy I know some Italian college students. They would love to study in the US for this reason."
What are the shortcomings of European non-elite higher education?

"You get what you pay for...."
What we pay for (and get) in the U.S. are:
o Professors with low teaching loads so they can write worthless "research papers" to publish in journals nobody reads.
o Nice buildings and lawns.
o Sports!
o Remedial instruction for students who never mastered a proper high school curriculum.
o Lots of audiovisual equipment so students can be entertained by courses in sex education and film commentary. ("So, how did you _feel_ when Benjamin interrupted the wedding ceremony to get back together with Mrs. Robinson's daughter?")
Our engineering programs are probably pretty good, however.
 
Michael Ernest
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Andy Rooney never really dies, does he?
 
Al Newman
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Originally posted by Frank Silbermann:

Alfred (E.?) Neumann
What are the shortcomings of European non-elite higher education?


Alfred E Neumann indeed, cropped to fit the Javaranch naming rules.
The major shortcoming of European higher education is lack of resources and results. Until recently most European universities were non-selective to the point where they couldn't even limit the number of students who enrolled! With the result that facilities designed to handle 40,000 students have to take 160,000 (University of Rome). Per-student expenditures are at 1/2 or 1/3 of US levels.
German Universities have begun to make the long climb back with the recognition that non-selective admission policies had diluted the value of the education. Germany is on the way up, according to this report I read. But still a long way behind.
Another problem is that European Universities are too homogenious. In the US colleges and universities offer a range of options from institutions which cater to the best students (Ivy League, University of California, etc) right down to junior colleges. And most of them do a good job at whatever level.
There is something of a location problem as well. In the US almost any city with 20,000 people or more will have it's own college or university. At very least a junior college. When I lived in Italy I noticed that there was no Italian University north of Trento (about 120 miles south of the Austrian border). No university in the South Tirol at all, despite the existance of several substantial cities. This means that many students cannot live at home while pursuing advanced education.

Originally posted by Frank Silbermann:
"You get what you pay for...."
What we pay for (and get) in the U.S. are:
o Professors with low teaching loads so they can write worthless "research papers" to publish in journals nobody reads.
o Nice buildings and lawns.
o Sports!
o Remedial instruction for students who never mastered a proper high school curriculum.
o Lots of audiovisual equipment so students can be entertained by courses in sex education and film commentary. ("So, how did you _feel_ when Benjamin interrupted the wedding ceremony to get back together with Mrs. Robinson's daughter?")
Our engineering programs are probably pretty good, however.


Well, yes. Some of this is very valid. I attended a Jesuit private college to start and finished at a 2nd or 3rd tier public university, and never tok a single 'entertainment' course. But that doesn't mean they weren't available. But I was paying my own way on the minimum wage and was determined to get my money's worth!
And don't get me going on 'Womyns Studies' and 'Deprived Minority Studies' programs or you'll never hear the end of it. Athletics are often a distraction but are largely self-financing. The 'useless papers' also serve as a farm team for developing useful scholars and scholarship. One cannot start at the top in most cases. And those publications are read albeit by small numbers of professionals. What I'm uncertain about are the dissertations. Years ago a dissertaion was the culmination of a teaching career, not the beginning of one. That approach had it's strengths, I think....
Our engineering programs, hard sciences, and humanities are more or less world-class at most levels. Teaching education and foreign languages are US weaknesses. To be honest I think we should ship students off for semester or a year at an appropriate program in another country to cover languages, because where you really learn a language and a culture is on the street (the voice of experience).
 
Jason Menard
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Originally posted by Alfred Neumann:
Alfred E Neumann indeed, cropped to fit the Javaranch naming rules.


Of course now your admission to this (and I have absolutely no clue why no moderator has challenged you on this obviously bogus name before) means that posting under this name in any forum besides this one makes you in violation of our naming conventions.
 
Al Newman
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What? Me worry?
 
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Hi,
That's OK. I like Alfred name. It is the heck better than just Al.
I do missed the Cold War. When the good guy try to be good and the bad guy do everything in his gruelsome power to be bad.
Regards,
MCao
 
John Smith
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When the good guy try to be good and the bad guy do everything in his gruelsome power to be bad.
Is that what you think the war (cold or hot) is about?
 
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Alfred, change your JavaRanch name if you have to ?
Any imposter will have a lot of difficulty capturing your particular style.
Even if you are called Beauvais we will know it's Alfred.
Or Beavis.
regards
 
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Originally posted by Jason Menard:
Maybe Rumselfd doesn't know, but it seems to be pretty much common knowledge otherwise.


From common knowledge page:
========================
A madrassa is an Islamic religious school. Many of the Taliban were educated in Saudi-financed madrassas in Pakistan that teach Wahhabism, a particularly austere and rigid form of Islam which is rooted in Saudi Arabia. Around the world, Saudi wealth and charities contributed to an explosive growth of madrassas during the Afghan jihad against the Soviets.........
=========================
Then why to bomb Afghanistan/Iraq/......
 
Al Newman
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Originally posted by HS Thomas:
Alfred, change your JavaRanch name if you have to ?
Any imposter will have a lot of difficulty capturing your particular style.
Even if you are called Beauvais we will know it's Alfred.
Or Beavis.
regards


I don't know HS. Inspector Javert has my number now. He's on my trail....
Back to the galleys with you!
[ November 14, 2003: Message edited by: Alfred Neumann ]
 
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