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French ministers back scarf ban

 
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Originally posted by Falana Dhimkana:
Guys,
Aren't we all missing the big picture? I don't think this is about religion/headscarf. I think it really reflects on the stupidity of french govt! The whole west gets mad at middle-eastern regimes for enforcing dress codes. Now, isn't the french govt ban on religious items as fanatic as the Iranian enforcement of scarf?


Case in point, different society has different baggage. Being secular has created French society.. being religions has created Iranian society. Certain things are not compatiable with certain societies -- sexy cloths is incompatible with Iranian society; begining "too religious" is not compatible with French society (i.e., cutting hands off of theives).
Obviously, "cutting the hands off of theives" is not as extreme as wearing a freaking head scarf to school. However, boundaries have to be establish. As with most cases with boundaries there is not a clear reason why a certain demarkation is set at a certain point. THe only thing that matters is that it is set. Same with Iran. There will be a boundary where the cloths are too sexy... Defining what is too sexy my seem arbitary.. However, the important thing is that the boundary is set to that point...
"Now, isn't the french govt ban on religious items as fanatic as the Iranian enforcement of scarf?" Yes, but is it a bad thing :-) I don't think so. Different society for different folks...
-Eleison
 
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Iranian women were considered very beautiful, stylish and sexy until the bigots took over Iran.
 
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Originally posted by Eleison Zeitgeist:

"Now, isn't the french govt ban on religious items as fanatic as the Iranian enforcement of scarf?" Yes, but is it a bad thing :-) I don't think so. Different society for different folks...
-Eleison


Let me get this straight. You are actually saying that the french ban is fanatical and it is pefectly fine? Well, what can I say! I don't think history will judge France as a progressive/freedom-loving nation
Let's have a show of hands and see how many ranchers agree that
1. This religious symbol ban is fanaticism like Iranian dress code enforcement.
2. It is ok for France to be a nation of fanatics!
 
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IF someone has interacted with people/Read book/..
then he would not post some of the rubbish you see above.


ARM: It seems from your arguments that you have interacted with the people/Read book, but you still have posted plenty of rubbish. So I don't think your argument holds.
 
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Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
Do you think that the only way mankind should interact with their creator is through fear? Haven't you ever done anything for your parents because you knew it would please them?


I think that most religious people beleive what they do because they are either:
A) Confused about the universe and religion offers them a nice answer to it.
B) Afraid that something is not in control and religion offers them a nice answer to it.
Because of that, they seem to be doing most of their religious actions through a mixture of confusion or fear. What I was trying to say was that the whole idea of a wearing a particular kind of clothing making you a better person is crazy!

How many people who wear the religious clothing have read their religious book of choice, considered all the issues within, and come to the conclusion that wearing a scarf / hat / cross etc is the best thing to do? Not many I'd bet - most are probably just doing what they are told to do, or what they are used to be doing without really considering it, or having a choice in it. Of course this is just a unprovable personal opinion
 
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Thirty years ago when heavy 3rd world immigration started, some conservatives predicted eventual extreme social discord. (I remember hearing about one notorious "Rivers of Blood" speech by a British MP.)
The Left accused them of racism and ridiculed their concerns, on the assumption that "The world is moving to an atheist Marxist international, so what difference will it make what religion an atheist's grandparents believed in?"
I believe the headscarf ban is an attempt by the French to enforce the Left's social predictions, in order to avoid the disaster predicted by the Right.
America traditionally had a different philosophy about immigration. Our practice was to accept immigrants as true Americans while demanding that immigrants identify with and join us in glorifying the American enterprise (e.g. flag-waiving). Religion was dealt with by keeping the government sector small (so there would be less for people of diverse religions to fight over), while encouraging volunatry private sector religious institutions. (I suppose that our ability to assimilate immigrants will decline as Americans turn more towards European political ideas and attitudes.)
 
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Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
A person practices their religion everywhere not just in Church.


I am sure we have different definition of term "Religion".
AW my definition of religion does not dictate what should I wear and what should I not wear.
And all religious problem starts only when one wants to practice it everywhere.
 
R K Singh
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Originally posted by Terimaki Tojay:
If you are a women and if you wear even a little bit western clothes and if you walk on the street, the whole mankind will have their eyes on you.


All new fashion clothes are eye catching till my sister/daughter does not start wearing it.
 
R K Singh
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Originally posted by Falana Dhimkana:
What if a student decided wearing a yellow shirt is part of his/her religion?


And if school uniform is sky blue shirt and navy blue trouser then will you allow that student to attend school in yellow shirt and red trouser (let red trouser be his/her part of religion)??
 
R K Singh
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Originally posted by Eleison Zeitgeist:
However, secularism (a major component of French society)has brought France soo far -- it's intrinsic to the society..


Secularism does not tell to force others to not to follow religion. Secularism is about respecting all religions.
AW forcing a ban on scarf is as foolish as people who are now opposing it.
The only law needed is that no teaching institution will teach any religious lessons.
Let the schools be free from evil of religions.
 
R K Singh
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Originally posted by Abdul Rafay Mansoor:

clothes/covering = sign of diginity/modesty for me


You think its sign of dignity because you are brought up in that way.
Do you think who does not cover their head are not modest/dignified woman ??
If follow this Mantra then you will be happy. You should control religion, not religion should control you.
 
Abbu Rahman
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Originally posted by R K Singh:

You think its sign of dignity because you are brought up in that way.


yes, naturally...
now the point i was trying to make from my first post is that scarf is natural for us men/women its not "brutal"/"force"/"oppressive"...and "the gurdain" stuff, if u have problems keep it in ur stomach.
i say this again,
when you see men arguing for scarf you say: just think from womens point of view how oppressive it is.
when you see women protesting on roads for scarf you doubt its voluntary nature .
...heads or tails you want to win


Do you think who does not cover their head are not modest/dignified woman ??


NO, this apple is better does not mean that the rest are rotten.


....... You should control religion, not religion should control you.

I dont agree.
[ January 30, 2004: Message edited by: Abdul Rafay Mansoor ]
 
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Originally posted by Abdul Rafay Mansoor:

I dont agree.


Then live in a country that agrees with you. Live in Iran. Why do you want to force people to agree with you if you don't want to agree with them? If public in France (I don't know what the majority wants) does not want to allow scrafs in public places then either you agree with them or you leave. As simple as that.
It is because of this fundamentalism that Islam is getting a bad name. They want everybody to follow or agree to their values but do not want to agree with others.
 
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Originally posted by Terimaki Tojay:
Then live in a country that agrees with you. Live in Iran. Why do you want to force people to agree with you if you don't want to agree with them? If public in France (I don't know what the majority wants) does not want to allow scrafs in public places then either you agree with them or you leave. As simple as that.
It is because of this fundamentalism that Islam is getting a bad name. They want everybody to follow or agree to their values but do not want to agree with others.


[applause]
Well Said! "The tail should not wag the dog.." - definition - a minority opinion should not be dictating standards to the majority.
 
Paul McKenna
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Originally posted by Abdul Rafay Mansoor:
I dont agree.


ARM, do you know what would happen if I went into Saudi Arabia and spoke out in public simply in support of any religion other than Islam. Now, I am not speaking against Islam but simply in support of say Hinduism, my religion.
The Saudis would deport me citing me to be a threat to their way of life. Saudi does not even allow a person to carry a book of their religion into the country. No religious books other than those related to Islam can be brought into Saudi..
So why are you so upset when France, a secular / Catholic nation, wants to enforce its laws on its citizens. Why are muslims so upset when they themselves voluntarily moved to France because they could not bear the oppression in their home countries any longer??
 
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Paul has a point. If Islamic countries can tell people that they can't outwardly demonstrate any religion except Islam then why can't France tell people that they can't outwardly demonstrate any religion at all? It does seem a bit hypocritical for people from Islamic nations to complain about France.
 
Abbu Rahman
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Paul McKenna
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Originally posted by Abdul Rafay Mansoor:
for what ???


uumm.. ARM, maybe I am mistaken here but didnt you start discussing in this thread because you felt people had a wrong impression about those muslims who wear the scarf?? You wrote that other people have false impressions about those who wear the scarf and their beliefs. Therefore I presume that you were trying to educate people into believing wearing a scarf is not a bad thing.
Likewise I was defending the right of the French to ban people from wearing scarves. So was Teri!
 
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I was talking about one principle of islam called as "Hijab" not about french/saudi/iran/...


So, if we're talking about freedom of Islamic religious expression you have very strong opinions on the subject, but when an example of freedom of religious expression of other religions is brought up, you dodge the question leaving that issue for other people to decide. Nice.
I thought this thread was about freedom of religious expression in general, regardless of the country. Please tell me what whether you support the freedom of a Jew or Christian to wear a religious symbol in any country (including India/France/Saudi Arabia) and how that's consistent/inconsistent with your views on the hijab.
 
Terimaki Tojay
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Originally posted by Nathan Thurm:

I thought this thread was about freedom of religious expression in general, regardless of the country. Please tell me what whether you support the freedom of a Jew or Christian to wear a religious symbol in any country (including India/France/Saudi Arabia) and how that's consistent/inconsistent with your views on the hijab.


That's exactly my problem. They practice double standards. I have not met even a single muslim who openly opposes the practice of "religious non-freedom" in most of the Islamic countries. But every muslim I have met, thinks that they have a divine right to practice their religion in non-islamic countries without any restrictions.
 
Abbu Rahman
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If muslims put the same effort in creating a true democratic system in one of their nations like in their endless complaints about lack of tolerance of others this world would be a better place. :roll:
In Germany we have a similar discussion.
There is a female turkish teacher processing and she is backed by organizations which - as we know now very good - preach anti-semitic and anti-americanic propaganda.
Nazis, too, constantly complained about being treated unfair before gaining power. After gaining power the discussions about unfairness stoped.
The 09-11 murderers used our universities very liberal attitude towards practice of muslim religion to build up a terrorist cell. If you think that this has no consequences on general attitude I would call this politically naivity.

During my life I had turkish, maroquian, palestinian and iranian friends. None of them saw scarf as necesary part of being proud muslim. The in my view politically, economically and socialy most advanced muslim nations Turkey and Tunesia totally baned scarfs during certain period of their history.
We don't ban scarf. We just prohibit public employees, who swear on oath to support the democratic principles of our nation, to wear it during working hours.

regards Axel
[ January 31, 2004: Message edited by: Axel Janssen ]
 
Nathan Thurm
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Hey why do you think I would talk for Saudi/iran/pak (I add it before some inidan nationalist adds it) why do you think that way???
I did not take some kind of "lobbying contract" for Saudi/iran, you are interested not in what I talk but in what I don't .


You aren't going to talk for Saudi/iran/pak but want to talk for the French and tell them what to do? That makes no sense.

Worng, this thread talks about "French minister back scarf ban"
I entered the thread to talk about "scarf" ,
Others are dealing with "French minister back ----- ban"


You have a general discussion about freedom of religious expression going on all around you in this thread and you want to put fingers in your ears and blinders on and pretend to only want to talk about one aspect of this argument. If this title of this thread were " Restriction on Freedom of religious expression - French minister back scarf ban" would that change things? Does the title of the thread restrict talking in principled terms? Of course not. I have never seen anyone on this forum say, "oh, I only wanted to talk about this" especially when talking about the principles underlying the argument would make things much more clear.
NT - Please tell me what whether you support the freedom of a Jew or Christian to wear a religious symbol in any country (including India/France/Saudi Arabia)

yes I support, I can give proof from Sacred text but then everyone will join and ridicule it.


Ok, I would just be happy if you would say "I support the freedom of a Jew or Christian to wear a religious symbol in any country (including India/France/Saudi Arabia)". I also would not ridicule your proof.


Hijab in no way offends freedom of others,.


So is this consistent or inconsistent with freedoms of expression of other religions?
Please get back to us when you're done with SCWCD.
[ January 31, 2004: Message edited by: Nathan Thurm ]
 
Steven Broadbent
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posted by Axel:
If muslims put the same effort in creating a true democratic system in one of their nations like in their endless complaints about lack of tolerance of others this world would be a better place

Very true. I would also like to know of an arab state that respects the human rights of it's citizens, does not have arbitrary arrest or torture and has a fair legal system.
Too many people quick to criticise the west ( even people who settled there) without considering what the alternatives are.
 
Thomas Paul
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How about if we change this thread to "Saudi ministers back Bible ban"?
 
Abbu Rahman
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R K Singh
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Originally posted by Abdul Rafay Mansoor:
NO, this apple is better does not mean that the rest are rotten.


Are you trying to say that there is only one better apple, no two apple are alike ???
And obviously "better" word should be used with very much cautions.
I dont agree.
Any reason why ??
Do you do Datun in the morning or use toothbrush ??
Do you cook your food still on dry woods ??
Do you comb your hair with wooden comb ??
If no, then be rational and change yourself with time .. I know its very difficult.
 
Axel Janssen
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With huge muslim population in central europe scarf is quite common.
I have no problem with that. I don't treat a girl/woman differently just because she wears scarf. Of course with this very visible sign she excludes herself somewhat from society of the host country, because of course she will encounter prejudices.
But I have problems with certain part of our muslim population (which is a minority) who easily complains about "discrimination against their religion".
... and then hearing about the amount of anti-jewish, anti-western culture and anti-american crap they are preaching in their culture centers, mosques, etc. If you are asking me: One really racistic anti-jewish speech in a german public building and this building - be it a mosque, a church or whatever - should be closed immediatedly. We had enough of this crap for the next 1000 years.
For me its characteristic aspect that those public school teachers who process against our states under freedom of religion flag are backed by organizations which are known as religiously, culturally and politically very intolerant.
I know from muslim people here, that a huge percentage of them don't like those religious freedom fighters neither.
[ February 01, 2004: Message edited by: Axel Janssen ]
 
Steven Broadbent
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interesting and long article about headscarves in Todays Sunday Times. I will try to post some of it later. However one point is interesting:--
hajib does not mean veil or headscarf, there is a totally different word for this. Hajib actually means curtain or barrier. So when a barrier( physical or not) is talked about it has been intepreted as a veil or even the hideous bhurka. Many other interesting points in the article.
 
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Just a quick note - many of the comments from Paul and me in the first few posts here would also apply to this thread. Focus on the topic, not the other people you're arguing with. Avoiding use of "you" where possible is probably a good idea. As for some of the specific comments I saw here:
"Your arguments are illogical" - well, maybe, but it would be a lot better to take a particular agrument and explain why you think it's invalid. Otherwise "your arguments are illogical" sounds a lot like "you're stupid", which is unacceptable here.
"You want to ..." - Don't presume to know what the other person wants, or to tell them what they want. Asking them may be appropriate.
[ February 01, 2004: Message edited by: Jim Yingst ]
 
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Originally posted by Terimaki Tojay:

In fact, not "almost all" religions but ALL religions. Show me one religion which has a women as its head. Show me one religion that was started by a women. Show me one religion that allows a woman to dictate to men.
You will not find a single one.


This is a little bit off topic but I have information that may be interesting and relevant. So I thought I would share.
Wicca, in the United States, is a religion focused on respect for women, women as leaders and teachers and guides, and respect to both sexes. It does not have a head. There is no book or central doctrine that everyone believes. Instead, it is a collection of loosely related ideas and approaches. The biggest central belief is non-harm; being respectful of other people. It is also focused on finding one's own personal experience of diety, one's own goals and desires, in a way that doesn't intrude on others.
There is no central church, nor city gatherings, etc. It is a grassroots style of organization; it is personal, not hierarchy.
Modern Wicca was 'founded' by a man - but because it is not based on a book or doctrine, it has grown over the years, and its current form is very much shaped by and created by women. While some versions of it treat the sexes as equals, others are biased somewhat more towards women leading.
It is formally recognized as a religion (granted legal status) by the United States government. Still, many people hide their participation and beliefs because religious discrimination does still occur in some communities.
This isn't entirely relevant to current discussion but since someone commented, I thought it might be interesting to note that there is at least one religion focused on / created by women.
My own belief on the French situation, to bring this more on topic: Either they will need to continue banning all religious and personal expression; OR, they will need to switch closer to what US schools have done... a person can show what religion they are at school, they just can't use the authority of a teacher to pressure someone about it. (A teacher can't make a kid pray.) This does lead to situations where kids are mean to other kids about religion - but that may be only avoided by teaching them that bullying behavior isn't allowed.
 
Joe King
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Originally posted by Jenny Brown:
they will need to switch closer to what US schools have done... a person can show what religion they are at school, they just can't use the authority of a teacher to pressure someone about it. (A teacher can't make a kid pray.)


That's exactly as it should be.
Does the pledge of allegiance fit in with this? I'm not too sure about it, but I've heard that it mentions god, and that most kids say it. Does that not put a kind of peer pressure on kids to have a religious stance? A similar thing happened when I was at school - students were expected to sing christian hymms, and punished if they didnt - no one thought for a moment that somebody may not want to, and the head was fairly religious - had I gone up to him and said "I dont want to sing this hymm because I'm not christian", he just would have said "nonesense, stop causing trouble". No matter what laws there are about this, I think a lot of people just ignore them, assuming that people are christian by default.
This reminds me of a quote I heard somewhere "we are all born agnostic, but some people change their minds". Its funny, because people tend to assume that we are born with a religion. When I say "I'm athiest", some people say to me "why did you loose your religion?". They dont seem to understand that I never had it in the first place. Its this kind of assumption ("all westerners are christians", "all arabs are muslim" etc) and more serious ones ("all muslims are terrorist backers", "all christians have no respect for muslims") that make a lot of misunderstandings occur. Even though a lot of people deny thinking them, I think these kinds of oppinions are quite wide spread.
[ February 02, 2004: Message edited by: Joe King ]
 
Jenny Brown
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Originally posted by Joe King:

Does the pledge of allegiance fit in with this? I'm not too sure about it, but I've heard that it mentions god, and that most kids say it.


This varies by school. Some schools say a variation of it, without the words "under God" (the phrase is: one nation, under God, indivisible). Friends I'm talked to noticed a trend that if the school is "diverse" (in a large city with many ethnicities) it is more likely to skip the under God part. My small rural school expected everyone to say it but if someone made a fuss they should stand with the rest of the class for the duration but they didn't have to say under God or they didn't have to say any of it.

Originally posted by Joe King:

A similar thing happened when I was at school - students were expected to sing christian hymms, and punished if they didnt - no one thought for a moment that somebody may not want to, and the head was fairly religious -


In my schools (2), the Christian kids were also required to sing Jewish hymns and some various ones from other religions, all in the guise of teaching about diversity in cultures and traditions. It was however limited to the judeo-christian overall area though - I think school 1 would have been shocked if I'd brought in African Goddess chant. I think school 2 would have heartily embraced it and looked for a pronunciation guide so the class could sing it too.
There's also a difference between required music education class, and optional enrollment in choir. School #1 of mine was all about "quit making trouble." School #2 had an open, calm discussion of religion in music during one session, in response to a student's comment, and the choir director welcomed people to bring in hymns/chants/songs from their own religion if they weren't Christian. She wanted to emphasize that the performances weren't meant to be religious in nature, but rather culturally diverse. (She was a cool teacher, too.)

Originally posted by Joe King:

No matter what laws there are about this, I think a lot of people just ignore them, assuming that people are christian by default.


Yes. I noticed that a LOT in most school environments. I've had some progressive teachers who recognized it was not the case, and worked to make the rest of the class realize it too. They provided a very supportive environment for mutual learning. But they were the exception.
Lots of people assume someone is just like them, if there's no information to the contrary. This can be a good thing (somewhat less discrimination) or it can be a bad thing (feeling invisible and misunderstood). My personal preference is for differences to show and people to learn to accept them anyway - so that hopefully someday we'll be living in a world where it's safe to be different. That's a hard route too though.
 
Falana Dhimkana
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Originally posted by R K Singh:

And if school uniform is sky blue shirt and navy blue trouser then will you allow that student to attend school in yellow shirt and red trouser (let red trouser be his/her part of religion)??


RK,
There are no school uniforms in the west so the logic doesn't really hold any water. I think schools in the western world have enough sense not to have any uniform codes
Thomas Paul,
Help me understand this. Since you are upset with the way things are in the middle-east you are willing to give up the high moral ground the west has. Just for spite you are willing to ban religious symbols? I guess you have no problem with Israel (Israel being a free society). Are you willing to let the jewish students wear a yarmulke?
Jason,
I completely agree with you. This is an example of a government on the drug of secularism. If France goes through with this they will have no moral right to complain about human rights violation in the middle-east
 
Thomas Paul
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Originally posted by Falana Dhimkana:
Thomas Paul,
Help me understand this. Since you are upset with the way things are in the middle-east you are willing to give up the high moral ground the west has. Just for spite you are willing to ban religious symbols? I guess you have no problem with Israel (Israel being a free society). Are you willing to let the jewish students wear a yarmulke?

You misread me. What I said is that if you do not support a free society everywhere then you have no right to complain when people repress you. If you don't think a Jew should be able to wear a star of David in Mecca then you have no right to complain when you are told you can't wear your religious symbol in Paris.
 
R K Singh
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Originally posted by Falana Dhimkana:
There are no school uniforms in the west so the logic doesn't really hold any water.


:roll:
No uniform in schools.
I am sure we are talking about school in Indian sense, which is upto class 10th. And after that education is called college where there are no uniforms. Not in american sense, in which you go to school after college
I think schools in the western world have enough sense not to have any uniform codes
When I was kid, I used to protest about uniform in school.
But now when I see uniform in school then only one thing comes to my mind that uniform brings uniformity in school. It does not matter what religion, caste, economic class you belong at home.
Uniforms in school makes sense atleast in India where there are so many different religion etc are staying together.
Uniform in school silently says, when you are in school, you all are equal and will be treated equally. No one can complian that I was punished becuase I was wearing scarf.
 
Falana Dhimkana
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Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
You misread me. What I said is that if you do not support a free society everywhere then you have no right to complain when people repress you. If you don't think a Jew should be able to wear a star of David in Mecca then you have no right to complain when you are told you can't wear your religious symbol in Paris.


Thomas,
For the sake of record, I think middle-eastern governments are really rigid and have no respect for anybody who doesn't follow their official religion. That having been said I understand your point and am myself upset about people who are complaining about freedom in Paris. But do you think France has to lose moral ground and act like Iran?
 
Falana Dhimkana
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Originally posted by R K Singh:

:roll:
No uniform in schools.
I am sure we are talking about school in Indian sense, which is upto class 10th. And after that education is called college where there are no uniforms. Not in american sense, in which you go to school after college
I think schools in the western world have enough sense not to have any uniform codes
When I was kid, I used to protest about uniform in school.


Elementary/middle/high schools have no uniform in the US/Canada.

Originally posted by R K Singh:

But now when I see uniform in school then only one thing comes to my mind that uniform brings uniformity in school. It does not matter what religion, caste, economic class you belong at home.
Uniforms in school makes sense atleast in India where there are so many different religion etc are staying together.
Uniform in school silently says, when you are in school, you all are equal and will be treated equally. No one can complian that I was punished becuase I was wearing scarf.


Well, I am not sure of this logic either what if a kid in school complained that I was punished because I have a begali/marathi/gujarati/XXX accent? What are we going to do then? Can you enforce a language uniformity also? The way to deal with bias is to eliminate the bias in minds and not try to hide things so that no biased person can discriminate against you. What are we going to do next paint every school kids face in same color so that nobody can figure out the ethnicity of the student? Your logic actually lends credibilty to Iranian style dress code. Since every woman has to wear it, its ok?
 
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