India and you

[R K Singh]

Originally posted by Richard Hawkes:
I don't understand: do missionaries actually give money and jobs to people who convert to Christianity? How can they afford to do that?
Anyway I'm learning some more about India here

Opsss .. so you dont know about your money, what you donate to these christian missionaires
AW its not that they dont do good work. I have seen myself, nuns doing all the things for poor people and patients.
Even I dont care much who get converts in what religion, but the way missionaries descriminate people about giving charity that hurts. If you get converted then you will money, land etc..
And if not then God Bless you.

[Arjun Shastry]

Originally posted by Richard Hawkes:
I don't understand: do missionaries actually give money and jobs to people who convert to Christianity? How can they afford to do that? Or do they just promise jobs and wealth but never deliver?
Anyway I'm learning some more about India here

Whether they do or don't is questionable.Constitutionally "all persons are equally entitled to freedom of conscience and the right freely to profess, practise and propagate religion."So I can be Christian on Monday,Hindu on Tuesday,Muslim on Wednesday,Buddhist on Friday and so on.I can legally accept money from any religious institution and change the religion for ecomonic progress.If somebody forces me to convert,I have the right to complain to police about that.

[Devesh H Rao]

Originally posted by R K Singh:

US democray might be 4 times older than Indian democracy.
here Mother Marry wears Sari (and thats also in Ulta Pallu), people perform Aarti infornt of Jesus and Dargah is open for all.
India is different ..

Very different .......
and to add a few
muslims carry ganesh idols on their heads during ganesh puja [ganesh is one of the 3/300 crore hindu dieties... heck if only we had only one,the figure is too hard to remember ]
christians burn inscence sticks in theirs homes and pray with their arms folded [which is very traditional hindu way of doing it].
hindus take part in islamic and christian festivities like idd and christmas
people can walk into any place of religion and pray [defn there are a few exceptions for this but on an average no body stops you from praying even if you are not a follower of that religion]
It takes great patience to mould a mirrior but just a pebble to shatter it.

[Manish Hatwalne]

Well,
I think India is quite often misunderstood....
How many of you really know or understand what is going on here???
Would love to post detailed views sometime....
- Manish

[Manish Hatwalne]

Meanwhile, good job Ravish and Davesh!!!
- Manish

[Manish Hatwalne]

Originally posted by Richard Hawkes:
I don't understand: do missionaries actually give money and jobs to people who convert to Christianity? How can they afford to do that? Or do they just promise jobs and wealth but never deliver?
Anyway I'm learning some more about India here

Conversion to Christianity (or any other religion for that matter) is a far more sensitive and complex issues here. I doubt people who haven't really studied it would even understnad, and that includes many Indians as well!
There's a good book on this one -
Missionaries in India
by ARUN SHOURIE
And here is
an article about the book. I am NOT saying that it represents the issue in its entirety, but it covers quite a few aspects. Remember that not all material available is in english, and due to cultural and linguistic diversity, not all of us are aware of this material or can read it (What do I understnad about Oriya or Tamil???). And that also is a major factor why India is oftnen misrepresented or misunderstood.
India is not definitely easy to understand!
- Manish

[Joe Pluta]

Originally posted by Joe Pluta: If someone wants to convert to Christianity for WHATEVER reason, what business is it of the state to stop them?
US democray might be 4 times older than Indian democracy.
But India continent is 10 times older than US. Initially(more than 5000yrs back) the binding thing was "way of life", which people now call Hinduatva, and still its Hinduatva which binds India. Hinduatva is not religion, its just a way of life. And Islam and Christianity are different in India than all over world. As I mentioned long back , here Mother Marry wears Sari (and thats also in Ulta Pallu), people perform Aarti infornt of Jesus and Dargah is open for all.
And what does this have to do with the question?
In a democracy, the state should have no say in a person's religious choice. One does not register one's religion, just as one does not register one's race, and you are free to change your religious affiliation at any time without the permission of the state.
If you want India to be a theocracy, that's a different issue, but the framers of the Indian Constitution evidently saw the danger in that and carefully crafted it to be a true democracy, tolerant of all religions.
Joe

[Joe Pluta]

Hindutva, as far as I can find, is simply Hindu nationalism. It's more extreme followers promote non-tolerance of other religions.
For example, are you in favor of the writings of M.S.Golwalkar?
Joe

[Devesh H Rao]

Originally posted by Joe Pluta:
If you want India to be a theocracy, that's a different issue, but the framers of the Indian Constitution evidently saw the danger in that and carefully crafted it to be a true democracy, tolerant of all religions.
Joe

Exactly and we want it to remain just that a true democracy, tolerant of all religions.
No body has any issues on conversion out of free will and no one will even care if someone changes his religion or belifs on a daily basis. Given the no of religion or sects in here i could have be a follower of a new belief for every day of my life [wow that give me an idea to get into guiness book of records ].
But when thing get to the point where you say convert or you wont get XXX it gets a bit dicey which eventually leads to reaction which may not always be peaceful it is this reaction part which majority of people in here don't want to let happen.

[Arjun Shastry]

Originally posted by R K Singh:

Why not these missionaries donate money to "state fund" so that education can be provided to all, not to only those are vulnerable to conversion ??
Why dont these missionaries open/create shop/job and give it to state and allows state to give it to any person regardless of its religion ??

Why should somebody fill state coffers ?If you have the money,you have the rights to decide on whom you should spend.Aren't there many people from other religions who can do these things required by you?and isn't there a big queue of Hindu parents eager to admit their kids in missionary run schools for getting 'good' education?
The questions you have asked are equally applicable to trusts and charities of other religions too!!

[Devesh H Rao]

Originally posted by Joe Pluta:
Hindutva, as far as I can find, is simply Hindu nationalism. It's more extreme followers promote non-tolerance of other religions.
For example, are you in favor of the writings of M.S.Golwalkar?
Joe

Hindutva is a concept spawned by people who could'nt hijack hinduism to spread their beliefs.
Hindutva is a very new concept and has roots only from 1920's where as Hindusim which goes back eons to the very roots of indian civilization and is the concept which is widely accepted and practised in india.
The basic difference in Hindutva and Hinduism is the former preaches something on similar lines of other religion that it is the only way to god
or salvation while the latter says who cares what path you take as long as you get to heaven.
If indians were followers of M.S.Golwalkar? or if teachings like his were taken seriously would india still have had the second largest population of muslims in the world with equal rights to christianity, budhism, jainism, jews, parsis, sikhs, u name it we have got it.
as far as the law you quoted abt conversions is concerned which discriminates against only certain religions its politics and will never get to the stage where it would ever be implemented at the grass root level.
The next govt in the state may even revoke it for all that it matters

[Thomas Paul]

Originally posted by R K Singh:
India is different ..

I think it is quite funny that Indians keep saying that Americans just can't understand them because they are so complex but they are perfectly willing to spout off about what America should do because they think they understand us.
Forcing people to register their religion is a form of discrimination and is definitely a violation of the UN's guarantees of freedom of conscience.

[R K Singh]

Originally posted by Joe Pluta:
Originally posted by Joe Pluta: If someone wants to convert to Christianity for WHATEVER reason, what business is it of the state to stop them?
And what does this have to do with the question?

Look, you even could not see what it has to do with your question.
The whole para was saying that state does not bother about religions as none is differnt from each other and they are so much intermingled with each other that they can not be seperated.
So nobody actually bothers about your religion and so the state.
First of all, your question is wrong. State "does not" STOP anyone to change his religion.
It says, inform to the DM and do whatever you want to do.
I dont understand what is your objection on informing to DM ???
In a democracy, the state should have no say in a person's religious choice.
Obviously and state has nothing to say about person's religion.
You practice whatever religion you want. State does not bother, it just need a information that my name has changed from Ravish Singh to Ravish Khan.

[R K Singh]

Originally posted by Joe Pluta:
Hindutva, as far as I can find, is simply Hindu nationalism. It's more extreme followers promote non-tolerance of other religions.

I am really sorry that Hindutva dont have one book which can tell you what is Hindutva. It has library and no body reads all the books and it changes with time because its way of life.
Yesterday Ganesha had papers (Pothi) in his hand and today he plays with computer.
Now before that you ask, what it has to do with your question?
I would like to know what do you mean by Hindu nationalism ??

[Arjun Shastry]

{
or if teachings like his were taken seriously
}
Did you get a chance to read any of his book? I read one(which was in Marathi) and it was crap!I will translate some of the contents in near future here.

[R K Singh]

Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
Forcing people to register their religion is a form of discrimination

Even people are forced to register their child birth and any mortal in family.
And you are wrong, people has to register inform when they change the religion.
First of all, I dont believe in religion and second, not a bit in conversion. I feel pity on people who even try to convert others.

[R K Singh]

Originally posted by R K Singh:
State does not bother, it just need a information that my name has changed from Ravish Singh to Ravish Khan.

Oh for US name does not have more significance than identifier.
But here name is more than SSN.

[Jason Menard]

No true democracy forces people to register their religion.

[R K Singh]

Originally posted by Jason Menard:
No true democracy forces people to register their religion.

OK, its false democracy and I am happy with it
So how many are here vegetarian ??
[ February 13, 2004: Message edited by: R K Singh ]

[Jason Menard]

Originally posted by R K Singh:
So how many are here vegetarian ??

Do you have to register that as well?

[R K Singh]

Originally posted by Jason Menard:
No true democracy forces people to register their religion.

registering religion is better than being harassed.
Oh this might be the true definition of democracy.
As I said what is right for you for others it might be wrong and what is right for me , could be wrong for others.
If any Indian feels that Law is wrong, he can file a PIL. But no one has filed a petition till now.
AW have a nice weekend.

[Axel Janssen]

What's with sport?
Indians don't seem to be bad in cricket. But watching some pictures in CNN cricket appears to me more like a lazy summer picnic than a real sport.
In hockey (without ice) they are not bad either. But some 200 semi professional german hockey players from 3 or 4 cities with universities keep them in check.
They've never made it up to the by far globally most important sport event, the fifa football world cup (soccer).
Did an indian ever win a medal in the olympics?
[ February 13, 2004: Message edited by: Axel Janssen ]

[Devesh H Rao]

Originally posted by Axel Janssen:
What's with sport?
Indians don't seem to be bad in cricket. But watching some pictures in CNN cricket appears to me more like a lazy summer picnic than a real sport.
In hockey (without ice) they are not bad either. But some 200 semi professional german hockey players from 3 or 4 cities with universities keep them in check.
They've never made it up to the by far globally most important sport event, the fifa football world cup (soccer).
Did an indian ever win a medal in the olympics?
[ February 13, 2004: Message edited by: Axel Janssen ]

You touch a raw nerve axel
we are good at the oldest sport known to human though
but the chinese have beat us to the post even there but not for long not for long :roll:

[Joe Pluta]

DHR: But when thing get to the point where you say convert or you wont get XXX
That's a little different than saying "if you do convert you will get a job". Are the Christian missionaries withholding basic needs like food and medicine if someone doesn't convert?
And if so, why isn't the government providing those things?
And in my research, I could find no substantiated reports of Christians coercing anyone. I have read some accounts of chicanery ("the bus won't start until you pray to Jesus") but in general those reports seem anecdotal. The only fact I have found is that many high-ranking government officials send their kids to Christian schools.
From what I have read, Communist leader Jyoti Basu, the country's home minister, L.K. Advani, a Hindu nationalist firebrand, and the Congress Party president Sonia Gandhi's daughter Priyanka all have one thing in common: they were educated in Christian schools.
Joe
[ February 13, 2004: Message edited by: Joe Pluta ]

[Joe Pluta]

registering religion is better than being harassed.
No it's not. Registering religion is the single largest step towards removing religious freedom.
Second, EVERYBODY gets profiled in America. I get profiled if I fly one-way. It's a fact of air travel in America since 9/11. It's certainly no worse than this:

Stepping up its drive against Christian missionaries, the VHP has asked them to shun "anti-Hindu" activities, keep away from conversion practices and restrict themselves only to their basic religious duties.

Joe

[Joe Pluta]

DR: If indians were followers of M.S.Golwalkar? or if teachings like his were taken seriously would india still have had the second largest population of muslims in the world with equal rights to christianity, budhism, jainism, jews, parsis, sikhs, u name it we have got it.
I agree. Golwalkar's views are hideous, and it seems clear to me that the great majority of democratic-minded Indians would have nothing to do with him. But Golwalkar is seen as one of the voices of Hindutva, which is why I asked Ravish if he believed in Golwalkar's writings. I see that he hasn't responded to that question.
Joe

[Axel Janssen]

1.000.000.000 people and not a single bronce medal in the olympics. I could not believe it.
And in fact there have been 3 indians who have won a medal:
For example

INDIA's Karnam Malleswar won the bronze medal for
Women's 62-69 Kg Total weightlifting event.
She is the third INDIAN got the individual medal for INDIA in Olympics.
Great show Karnam Malleswar
You saved India's pride at the world stage...
I am inviting everyone to congratulate Karnam Malleswar in this forum

With all due respect to the lady, I think there is yet some room for improvement.

[Paul McKenna]

Just a few observations..
Ravish, you seem to be taking some of the comments / questions too personally. After all wasnt the intent of this thread to allow "India Bashing" To say that registering is better than harrasing etc. is baseless. Two wrongs dont make a right.
Joe, majority of Hindus in India dont care about religion. Great majority of Hindus dont even know the basics of their religion. Take me for instance, I dont know anything about my religion other than a few fundamental tenets such as tolerance, karma etc. and two holy epics Ramayana and Mahabharata and I think most Hindus are as ignorant as me. Hinduism's real scriptures the Vedas and Upanishads would take years to read through leave alone master. Till date I have not met or heard of even one person who knows about all of the scriptures in Hinduism. The reason VHP, RSS have risen to some levels popularity is because of this. Hindus are ignorant about religion.. they dont care who worships what. There are periods when I dont go to a temple for years together. And its not considered a sin, if I dont pray its not a sin, its allowed. The VHP and RSS are able to manipulate the uneducated using these circumstances to their advantage. However I would also like to point out that I support some parts of their ideology too. If you look at the history of India its disintegrated nature was a direct result of lack of unity amongst Indians. The RSS and VHP believe for a strong country you must have a united country. You cant unite India based on language.. there are 300 official languages in the country. You cant unite the country based on skin color.. ever color in skin spectrum is there. But you can unite India based on religion. That is the one common thing throughout India. In this process they have sometimes trampled upon minority rights and I totally stand against that. But let it also be known that these acts have seldom gone unpunished. The judicial system, albeit slow, works and justice is ultimately handed down.
Axel, the reason Indians suck at most sports is because no one cares about it. Parents think that only academics are important and therefore curb all sport activity of their children if it even shows the slightest interference in their academic results. However having said that there are few sports (if they may be called that) where Indians have shined, to name a few
- Chess, the current world grandmaster is an Indian called Anand Viswanath (took him years to beat the ruskies but he did it)
- Weightlifters, the female weight lifters have done pretty well in the international arena, I am not sure about the medal count though
- Tennis, Leander Paes and some other guy have won the wimbledon doubles a couple of times
- Cricket, ofcourse

[Devesh H Rao]

Originally posted by Joe Pluta:
DHR: But when thing get to the point where you say convert or you wont get XXX
That's a little different than saying "if you do convert you will get a job". Are the Christian missionaries withholding basic needs like food and medicine if someone doesn't convert?
Joe
[ February 13, 2004: Message edited by: Joe Pluta ]

Hmmm even i have studied in a convent for the first few years of my schooling and at no time am i saying that convents or churches or "Christians" are bad.
in fact the convent education in india is of the highest standard even the hospitals run by missionaries do great work.
there is absolutely nothing against these missionaries or convents in general infact they are welcomed and if you try to find you wont find anything against them from the general populace in cities or in places which is not backward to a certain extent.
The problem arises when you put them in a tribal background and these are the areas from where you can say reaction against the missionaries have come in.
Without trying to paint a false picture i will like to present a scenario which may lead to heartburn amongst the people.
Take a village in some economically backward area in which you have a family of two siblings living together and living of a meagre share of land which gets them just enuf to see them through the year. Now a priest [i am not specifying any religion the priest can be applicable for any religion] comes into the villiage and starts sermonizing and spreading his beliefs. he says if you follow his god only will you be able to reap the fruits and be happy. One brother in the family does not give in coz of his convictions in his original religion but the other brother not being so given in to religion converts after dividing the already meager family land. Now coz the second brother is a convert he gets help from the priest in the form of land and money and given the already half land he got from his family inheritance he gets to lead a happy life. The brother who didn�t give in now has only half the land left which is no way sufficient to provide for his family so he suffers. This is further used by the priest to drive in the point that coz he didn�t convert he is suffering while the one who converted has got everything just coz he converted this leads to further anguish in the first brothers heart against the priest which may lead to violent reaction from him against the priest.
Now let me analyze this for you
The priest would have been welcome if he had seen to it that he was spreading goodwill amongst the family on the whole as doing well to
The poor is always a good karma according to Hindu beliefs and no one is going to protest against that. But when it leads to a situation in which he discriminates on grounds of people who convert and who do not problems arise.
I really don't know about you but for me what the priest did was wrong I would ask you to put yourself in the position of the first brother and ask you what you would have felt about the priest.
when we say Americans wont understand it is coz it is just not a simple case of missionaries doing good work and the have�s getting angry coz they are helping out the have nots. It has got to do with religion, families, ancestry, beliefs and a hell lot of things which even sometimes we find hard to understand as to why they are there in the first place.
Incidents like the killing of graham staines was a stain on the secular fabric of india and the guilty has been punished in the most suitable manner[here I am not saying punishment as in being hanged but the guilt that he would feel after knowing that the wife of staines has forgiven him after he has committed the crime].
When you say why is the govt not providing this all I can say is it tries its best but the best is not good enuf and gaps remain where help doesn�t reach the needy. we want people to plug these gaps for us not widen it.
[ February 13, 2004: Message edited by: Devesh H Rao ]

[Devesh H Rao]

Originally posted by Joe Pluta:
[b] which is why I asked Ravish if he believed in Golwalkar's writings. I see that he hasn't responded to that question.
Joe

I think he is sleeping or thinkin of coming up with a new topic.
of the first 10 topics in MD 5 have been started by RK

[Devesh H Rao]

Originally posted by Paul McKenna:
Just a few observations..
Axel, the reason Indians suck at most sports is because no one cares about it. Parents think that only academics are important and therefore curb all sport activity of their children if it even shows the slightest interference in their academic results. However having said that there are few sports (if they may be called that) where Indians have shined, to name a few
-

Ya my mother used to drag me home every evening from the cricket ground to do my studies or else i would have been in the indian team now

[Joe Pluta]

I really don't know about you but for me what the priest did was wrong I would ask you to put yourself in the position of the first brother and ask you what you would have felt about the priest.
I think it's always hard to assess right and wrong in a purely hypothetical situation like this, but let's look at it. First, I find it difficult to believe that missionaries are giving land to every person who converts to Christianity. Where did they get all this land from?
The money issue is much the same. How much are they giving? 1000Rp? 10000? If you're giving it to thousands of people, that's a lot of money in any currency.
If a missionary gave a lot of money to someone in exactly the circumstances you portray, then I might say it's divisive and I would talk to the person in charge of the mission. I can understand your problem with that. But it goes against common sense to think that Christian missionaries are giving away money and land to thousands of people. That would be millions of rupees and hundreds of acres of land, and once again I have to ask: where did they get it?
A question I would ask to try and gauge the common sense of this argument: how many people are being coerced into the Christian faith, and how much are they getting a head?
Joe

[Paul McKenna]

Originally posted by Joe Pluta:
That would be millions of rupees and hundreds of acres of land, and once again I have to ask: where did they get it?

Again, Joe keep in mind that these kind of missionaries are a minority too. Look at some of the successful and widely respected missionaries. Like Mother Teresa's. That mission performed acts of kindness irrespective of the person's religion and never asked anyone to convert. Some people converted because of their kindness.. and that is why no one has ever attacked Mother Teresa's mission.
There are other missions within rural India that perform such acts and they are the ones who are attacked. Again like I said earlier, the western mission head comes in and recruits locals. It could very well be possible that the head is unaware of the tactics used by the locals but I cant make a definitive statement about that.

[Paul McKenna]

Originally posted by Joe Pluta:
The money issue is much the same. How much are they giving? 1000Rp? 10000? If you're giving it to thousands of people, that's a lot of money in any currency.

What is Rs.10000 in dollars? A mere $250. But that is what the poor man earns in an entire year
Another factor you have to take into consideration is once a fradulent mission is discovered and even though it was only one out of a 1000. Those who wish to manipulate this can now do so. The VHP will start pointing to this one incident and thus villify all other missions. I do not condone or support it, but try explaining that to the illiterate.

[Joe Pluta]

Joe, majority of Hindus in India dont care about religion. (...) But you can unite India based on religion.
This I do not understand, especially if the religion you choose to unite the country is Hinduism. Since the Hindu religion states that if you are not born into it, you cannot join it, then by definition a Hindu state wiould exclude all non-Hindus. If you're going to choose a religion to bind a country, it would seem that Hinduism isn't the prefect first choice.
Second, from my limited knowledge of strict Hinduism, it is a highly caste-oriented society, with Brahmins on top and Dalits on the bottom. You say that the majority of Hindus don't care about religion. If that's the case, then are the following no longer true?

In a lot of the upper caste (rich) families the servants are Dalits. After the servant has cleaned the rooms, pots and pans, one of the family members will sprinkle 'holy' water to purify all that has been touched by the servant.
Dalits are not allowed to wear shoes; if they wear them, Dalits will have to take off their shoes at times they meet a higher caste person.
In the rural areas, Dalits are not allowed to cycle through the village streets in which the higher caste people live.
The Dalits mainly live in separate communities, outside the actual village.
In general, Dalits are not allowed to sit at the bus stop; they have to stand and wait till upper caste people have entered the bus. Dalits are also not allowed to sit on the seats, even though they are vacant.
After half a century of Independence even the educated among the Dalits are not free to get a house for rent of their choice to live in.
Most Hindus will avoid having a Dalit to prepare their food, because they fear becoming polluted.
The government has made reservations for Dalits, so that they can enter into jobs in the public sector, parliamentary State Assemblies and universities. This reservation, however, makes them even more vulnerable in the society.
Mira Saroj: Daughter of a toddy tapper in Uttar Pradesh, she is enrolled at Delhi University but jumps in with manual labour at home when she is free from studies. 'Sadly, an educated Dalit women is almost a contradiction in terms', says Mira. (Outlook Magazine, November 16, 1998)
'We may touch a cat, we may touch a dog, we may touch any other animal, but the touch of these human beings is pollution.' (G.K. Gokhale, in Jesus the Dalit by M.R. Arulraja, 1996. Volunteer Centre, 7-1-30/6, Ameerpet, Hyderabad - 16)

I'm actually just wondering what the current situation is. If this is truly a picture of the life of a Dalit in India, I can understand why they would want to convert to Buddhism.
Joe

[Thomas Paul]

Originally posted by Paul McKenna:
Another factor you have to take into consideration is once a fradulent mission is discovered...

What the hell is a "fraudulent mission"? What is fraudulent about giving someone money to convert. That should be between them, the person who is paying, and God. People who think they have to interfere in this think that they are superior and therefore they have to keep this low-class person from converting. It is no one's business.

[Thomas Paul]

Originally posted by R K Singh:

registering religion is better than being harassed.
"Chairman of India�s IT giant Wipro Azim Premji is bitter about the shabby treatment meted out to him every time he goes to an US airport to catch a flight. Each visit to the airport entails profiling simply because he is a Muslim."

So here's a Moslem complaining in the year after 9/11 because American security personnel are nervous about Moslems on airplanes. Get over yourself, pal. 3,000 Americans died because people of your religion decided to hijack planes and crash them into the Twin Towers. Give us a little while to get over that, OK?

[Joe Pluta]

There are other missions within rural India that perform such acts and they are the ones who are attacked.
How many? What are their names? How many people do they coerce? How much money do they give the coerced people? How much land?
It seems to me that a national law is being put in place that discriminates against Christians based on unsupported anecdotal evidence. I have yet to see one substantiated report of one mission that performs these acts.
Joe

[Paul McKenna]

Originally posted by Joe Pluta:
This I do not understand, especially if the religion you choose to unite the country is Hinduism. Since the Hindu religion states that if you are not born into it, you cannot join it, then by definition a Hindu state wiould exclude all non-Hindus. If you're going to choose a religion to bind a country, it would seem that Hinduism isn't the prefect first choice.

Incorrect, 80%+ is Hindu is India. Sikhs are considered Hindus, Buddhism is considered Hinduism, Jains are considered Hindus. So where is the problem. Christianity and Islam can flourish but they have to accept a minority status because that is what they are in India. Its like this, I am in the US and I have no problem in accepting my minority status because I know that US is in reality a Judeo-Christian country. Christian principles and beliefs should be given first importance and if there is a conflict between my beliefs and that of Chrisitianity, the latter takes importance as long as there is not direct negative impact on my livelihood. Is this too much to ask? In any society?

Second, from my limited knowledge of strict Hinduism, it is a highly caste-oriented society, with Brahmins on top and Dalits on the bottom. You say that the majority of Hindus don't care about religion. If that's the case, then are the following no longer true?

I am a Brahmin, I have a non-Brahmin sister-in-law and looks like several of my Brahmin friends are marrying non-Brahmins as well. The picture of India that a great deal of westerners have is one of pre-1950. When I was seeking admission into an engineering college I needed to score 95% to secure a Computer Engineering seat. Why because there is a quote of 65% seats reserved for people of lower caste. In government jobs to a large percentage of jobs is reserved for lower caste. Now tell me seriously do you think caste system has any importance?

I'm actually just wondering what the current situation is. If this is truly a picture of the life of a Dalit in India, I can understand why they would want to convert to Buddhism.
Joe[/QB]

Did you get that from Dalitstan? If you did, you are looking at a very biased and partisan source of information. I cant deny that caste exists in some parts of India but it is a system that has been in place for several hundred years. It cant be wiped out entirely over night.
To say caste system is a part of hinduism is like saying racism is a part of christianity. Both statements are false. Caste system was a social structure introduced by the wealthy to try and preserve their status. The religion makes no mention of it.

[Paul McKenna]

Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
So here's a Moslem complaining in the year after 9/11 because American security personnel are nervous about Moslems on airplanes

Azim Premji is a Parsi not a moslem.