Originally posted by herb slocomb:
Of course our media, our rock stars, and our movie stars will never flock to your country as it is threatened (numerous times) or if it is attacked. Unlike Sadaam's country, your country is democratic, peaceful, successful, and very productive. If you had a muderous dictator, perhaps everyone would support your country more. It is sick I know, but this is the world we live in it seems.
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=9912
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Taiwan's high court sealed election ballot boxes on Sunday as protesters massed to contest President Chen Shui-bian's victory after a mysterious assassination attempt and the discovery of many spoiled ballots.
Defeated Nationalist Party contender Lien Chan called for a recount and a special inquiry into the shooting of incumbent Chen on the eve of Saturday's poll that swung the vote in the island's closest-ever presidential election.
The court could select a judge to decide on a recount as early on Monday after Lien questioned how more than 330,000 votes had been ruled invalid. He lost to Chen by about 29,000 votes out of nearly 13 million cast.
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OK, had you said "all communist governments were murderous" then I would have to agree that every government that I know of that has called themselves "communist" have killed a lot. (Althoug I think that this is more to do with them being dictators than communists) It just appeared from your comment that you were referring to all the people who support communism.......
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Originally posted by Jeroen Wenting:
Maybe because there's a direct and linear relation between communism and dictatorship (not in reverse, as not all dictators are communist)?
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Originally posted by Billy Tsai:
those opposition parties are totally undemocratic and they should be a shamed of themselves
taiwanese won the election agains the undemocratic chinese
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Originally posted by Sadanand Murthy:
[QB]
As long as the elections were not rigged (& that is an allegation from the opposition party) you should be happy that the you country men & women have made their voice heard which is a whole lot more than what the Chinese people in China can do.
[QB]
originally posted by herb slocomb
The opposition is voting to become make Taiwan a part of China. They are trying to make Taiwan undemocratic.
Originally posted by Sadanand Murthy:
The majority wins whether the winner is to you liking or not. This happens in every democracy the world over.
Originally posted by JiaPei Jen:
The statement is a false one. Please read and understand the campaign agenda of the opposition party. What Billy Tsai has posted on this forum are his "personal" opinions.
The president elect Chen Shui-Bian has agreed on a recount of votes and will accept the outcome of the recount.
[ March 23, 2004: Message edited by: JiaPei Jen ]
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Originally posted by Sadanand Murthy:
The majority wins whether the winner is to you liking or not. This happens in every democracy the world over.
Response posted by Joe King:
Unless its an American presidential election![]()
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Originally posted by Billy Tsai:
the opposition parties are whole bunch of sore losers, they have already lost but they just dont accept the fact that they lost and still think the election is still running and complain all day long i am sick hearing from their bullXXXX everyday,
originally posted by herb slocomb
the opposition party does not want a formal declaration of indepedence from China. This just facilitates and makes the eventuality of China absorbing Taiwan more likely to occur. Thus, the loss of democracy and other rights that Billy no doubt meant when he said "undemocratic".
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Originally posted by JiaPei Jen:
1. The voter turnout rate was 80.28 percent. Of 12,914,422 valid ballots,
6,442,452 or 49.9% were for the opposition party. Did 6,442,452 vote to give up Taiwan's democracy?![]()
2. China will never tolerate Taiwan to break away permanently. That is to say, there is considerable price to pay should Taiwan choose to break away from China. How many percentage of the population in Taiwan are willing and ready to pay that kind of price?
3. Taiwan is a natural resources scarce place. What is Taiwan's current level of economic dependency on China? Is this level of dependency going to decrease or increase in the future?
4. In accordance with China's speed of integrating herself into the world, will the current ruling under the Communist Party perpetuate? Will democracy never take root in China? Will China never change? Will China remain poor in comparison with Taiwan forever?
Originally posted by JiaPei Jen:
China will never tolerate Taiwan's independence based on China's idiological priciple (not economic incentive), period.
Taiwan's independence means its extinction. The size of Taiwan is much smaller than any of one single province in China. Besides, Taiwan is an island without much natural resources endowment anyway.
Remember, Taiwan provokes it in the first place.
China still has 1.3 billion minus 0.01 billion population. Economic sanctions? Go ahead and bring it on.
From the viewpoint of Taiwan, is it worthwhile to stage a war that there is no chance to win?
Especially, the war is not "that" meaningful and necessary to fight.
It is an issue for the people in Taiwan to argue about. It is none of my business. Period.
Originally posted by herb slocomb:
I guess that's the same "principle"
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Originally posted by herb slocomb:
The Chinese govt has no claim to legitmacy since they stole control of China through armed force and now threaten Taiwan for no legitmate reason as well.
Originally posted by Joe King:
By that logic then the US has no legitamacy as it came about through an armed rebellion as well![]()
Originally posted by herb slocomb:
OK, that was an incomplete statement, as are most of my statements. The illegitimacy of the current communist Chinese govt rests on a number of factors. The legitimacy of the use of force depends on the purposes for which it used. There is a difference between a criminal gang executing rival gang members versus the principled use of force by a legitimate government to protect or to secure the human rights of its citizens. I think China falls into the criminal gang category owing to its continuous execution of political opponents since the days of its original revolution to the current day.
Originally posted by Joe King:
I suppose it depends upon the view point. To some of the Chinese, the communists were heros fighting for a better country. To others, they are the "criminals" you mentioned above. The same applies to the American revolution - to the English, the rebels were criminals.
This leads to the question - what is it that legitamises a state? I'm not sure, but it could be the democratic consent of the populace. In this case, the undemocratic Chinese government is definatly not the legitimate government, but then by that argument we should call all of the non-democratic states through history unlegitimate... I suppose it depends upon the values and view points of the people at the time.
Originally posted by herb slocomb:
Our fundamental disagreement on this issue, and all the other political ones we have, will always come down to philosophical differences in how we define human rights. A government is legitimate to the extent that it does not violate the human rights of its citizens.
Being democratic is no guarantee of complete legitimacy if the rights of minorities are being violated.
The Chinese govt never achieved any semblance of legitmacy
, but it had little to do with lack of democracy. Even if a majority of voting peasants voted for the "Cultural Revolution" in a democratic style government, it cannot justify the mass executions and widepsread theft that occurred.
Human rights define legitimacy
, not political structures (although certain structures are better than others in achieving legitimacy).
Originally posted by Joe King:
[QB]
I suppose this depends upon how you define human rights. If you define one particular human right as being "freedom of movement" then there are times when a government has to restrict that ie imprisoning a criminal.
[QB]
Originally posted by Joe King:
Although I don't think it should have happened, China did gain legitamacy of a sort when the UN decided to give it the security council seat previously held by the "other" Chinese government in Taiwan. Subsequant diplomatic recognition by most countries around the world has also lent a degree of legitamacy to China, although this is most likely done for economic rather than moral reasons.
Originally posted by Joe King:
[QB]
I think we both agree that government in charge of a particular state should respect human rights, but to be pedantic, a government could break some human rights and remain legitimate.
[ /QB]
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Originally posted by Mapraputa Is:
Didn't you notice that China isn't the same as 30 years ago?
Herb:
It does not make sense to attack Taiwan if Taiwan maintains a credible national defense system.