Gore Calls for Rumsfeld, Rice and Tenet to Resign

[Hussein O'Baghdadi]

A freedom fighter attacks the soldiers of their enemy. A terrorist blows up buses full of children

so what do you think about the iraqies ? terrorists or freedom fighters ?
what do you think when isreal destruct the houses above the heads of poeple (look at gazza)
does isreal fight a palestinian army, so they are not terrorists ? or just killing the palestinians ?
a side note :
why america doesn't try to clean isreal from more than 200 nuclear bombs, or isreal has the right to do what is want ?

[Tony Alicea]

Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
As the president said in his speech shortly after 9/11, this is not a war against Al Queda, this is a war against all terrorists. Iraq was connected to terrorists throughout the Middle East even if they weren't directly tied to Al Queda. Supporting one terrorist group is the same as supporting Al Queda since they are all tied together in their hatred.

"Oh god"... (with lower case 'g')...

Let me just mention one of a late night comedian's jokes about all this, that after decades of observing on my part, have a more realistic point of view:

Before the Iraq Invasion of our part, Saddam Hussein was saying the equivalent of (add humor) "Hey Americans, I don't have weapons of mass destructions (even if I hate you)... pst! ... pst! NO WMDs! Please!

But we went after him any way.

The American late night comedian continues...

"...while North Korea keeps yelling at us: Hey Americans! You want weapons of mass destruction!? Our name is North Korea and we declare we have them! Here! Come and Get Us! Now! Before it is too late! Please!"
[ May 28, 2004: Message edited by: Tony Alicea ]

[Thomas Paul]

Originally posted by Hussein Baghdadi:
why america doesn't try to clean isreal from more than 200 nuclear bombs, or isreal has the right to do what is want ?

How about because Israel is a friendly country to the US and doesn't blow up our citizens?

[Paul McKenna]

Originally posted by Hussein Baghdadi:
why america doesn't try to clean isreal from more than 200 nuclear bombs, or isreal has the right to do what is want ?[/QB]

Pretty much for the same reason, US lets UK, China, Russia, India and Pakistan keep their nuclear missiles

[Jeroen Wenting]

Originally posted by Thomas Paul:


How about because Israel is a friendly country to the US and doesn't blow up our citizens?

How about Israel signed the NPT and has respected it?
How about they've never used any WMD against anyone?
And indeed how about Israel isn't a threat to the US and indeed the only democratic country in the region...

[Hussein O'Baghdadi]

Hussain, I suggest you look up a history of violence in the ME which was NOT written by the PLO or an Arab organisation.

actually, I use our media, united states media (like news papers) and the uk media , when I want to know about something.
if you are saying that the palestinians are terrorists because they are targeting the buses, ok, why you say hezbolla is a terrorist orgenazation ?
hezbulla fighting the isreal army and not targeting the civilians, and I am assuming that you know isreal accupaing a lebanease and syrian lands.

They aided the Iraqis in Kuwait in 1990/1991 in the hope of being given Kuwait to run as their own country.

if you say that syria added saddam in his war against kuwait, you are 200% wrong!
syria has objected , condemned this war, and if you remember, syria has sent troops to fight with united states's troopes in iraq.
Jeron, I suggest you look up the history of the gulf war which was NOT written by US's media and CIA's
reports.

How about because Israel is a friendly country to the US and doesn't blow up our citizens?

If my country is a friendly country to US, does US allow us to obtain a nuclear missles ? just wondering....
I can't understand why US is ready to fight with more than 250 million's arabic, and not ready to say no to isreal .
US has advantages with isreal , fine , but do you think that US has no advantages with more than 250 arabic ?
and yes, isreal blow up our citizens and of course you never mind, right ?

How about Israel signed the NPT and has respected it?

Why united states doesn't respect the whole UN ?

And indeed how about Israel isn't a threat to the US and indeed the only democratic country in the region...

which kind of democracy you are talking about when the prime minister said that he is himself obvserving the assassination proccess ?
which kind of democracy , when isreal built a wall to devide palestain ?
should I mention that US supports some arab president to stay at power ?
which kind of democracy which the US want to teach it to us , abu ghraib's democracy ?
a small note :
why should every candidate to the US presidency declares that he will support isreal more than the previous president ?
how elects the president, the americans or isreal ???
[ May 29, 2004: Message edited by: Hussein Baghdadi ]

[John Dunn]

"...while North Korea keeps yelling at us: Hey Americans! You want weapons of mass destruction!? Our name is North Korea and we declare we have them! Here! Come and Get Us! Now! Before it is too late! Please!"
That is SO FUNNY!!! I guess you didn't realize that one of our greatest presidents got a Nobel Peace Prize by working with a deal with the Koreans to get rid of their nukes!!
[ May 29, 2004: Message edited by: John Dunn ]

[Tony Alicea]

Who was he? I forgot, he he...

Anyway North Korea will probably sell some of those nukes to the highest bidder (how much money does Osama have?).

Of course no country in its right mind would nuke a US city, but how about the org "Terrorists Without Borders"?

[John Dunn]

will probably sell did you mean, 'has probably sold'?

Anyway, they will hit a city at some point. Probably in the US. The US will probably be able to absorb the hit, even though it will be quite destructive [the rest of the post deleted. Please, re-write it so it wouldn't violate "be nice" rule - Map]
hmmm... Okay.
[second attempt:] and IMHO, it will finally cause our harshest critics in Europe to finally get worried, knowing that if the US can get hit so bad so can Europe. But it won't be enough for them to simply comply with al queda b/c if one of their neighbors gets hit, they'll also be affected. I believe al queda will thrive on the chaos.

In the end, it will be the Europeans who help end terrorism as I believe - IMHO!!! - that they will end up with a take-no-prisoners attitude and show no constraint in going after alQueda, etc.

Why do I feel this way? America is BIG. If you hit Portland, Oregon, it still may not directly affect the East Coast. If you hit any city in Switzerland with a dirty bomb, will Switzerland be able to handle it? How about Belguim, Greece, etc.

IMHO, al queda will unwittingly mess up in a way no one could ever believe.

The grandchildren will muse, "why didn't anyone stop them sooner, when they were threatening the US??"

[ May 29, 2004: Message edited by: Mapraputa Is ]
[ May 29, 2004: Message edited by: John Dunn ]

[Thomas Paul]

why should every candidate to the US presidency declares that he will support isreal more than the previous president ? how elects the president, the americans or isreal ???

Because Israel is a country that the citizens of the United States supports. They are as much at war against terrorism as we are. (And yes, hezbollah is a terrorist orgination or do you forget the kindnappings and palne hijackings?) They are building the wall to protect themselves from Palestinian terrorists who think nothing of blowing up children. Perhaps if the Palestinians tried to stop these suicide bombings Americans would feel more sympathy towards the Palestinians. Perhaps if palestinians would negotiate in good faith and not violate their treaties, Americans would care about a Palestinian homeland. All we see are a people who demand more and more everytime anything is granted to them. Nothing is enough and it will never be enough until that last Jew is driven into the sea. That is what we Americans see over there and that is why we fully support Israel. Not because of some fictional idea that the Jews run America.
[ May 30, 2004: Message edited by: Thomas Paul ]

[Max Habibi]

Because Israel is a country that the citizens of the United States supports. ...Perhaps if palestinians would negotiate in good faith and not violate their treaties, Americans would care ... All we see are a people who demand more and more ... That is what we Americans see over there and that is why we fully support Israel.

I'm fairly certain that it's inaccurate to speak for all Americans here: we are a diverse people with a diverse range of opinions. If you can say anything about Americans, in general, it's that we dislike people speaking on our behalf.

It's probably a better idea to express your own ideas and opinions.

M
[ May 30, 2004: Message edited by: Max Habibi ]

[Mapraputa Is]

JD: If you hit Portland, Oregon,

Why Portland?

[John Smith]

That's where JD's censors are.

[Mapraputa Is]

EK: That's where JD's censors are.

[Axel Janssen]

Originally posted by Max Habibi:

I'm fairly certain that it's inaccurate to speak for all Americans here: we are a diverse people with a diverse range of opinions. If you can say anything about Americans, in general, it's that we dislike people speaking on our behalf.

It's probably a better idea to express your own ideas and opinions.

M

That's very well said.
All morning I have had the impression to read a book of some really hard-thinking man (the didactically excelent RegExp book, that is).

To certain point I fully share the disdain of lots of Americans for lots of (like some of you say: holier than thou) Europeans who know everything better and let Americans do the dirty work in Kosovo, Gulf War I and to a certain extend even toppling Sadam.
And of course there is a right to exist in peace for Israel.
Nevertheless there are lots of aspects in this complex Israel-Palestina conflict and even among Israelis there are different points of view. You might call it "lack of consistence" of POV, but "for every complex problem, there is a solution which is simple, neat and wrong".
10 years ago I knew some Palestinians and they were by no means terrorists but students and they were able to explain to me why from their POVs they had trouble with Israel (lack of own opportunities and ressources). They were very realistic people and most sincerely hoping for some kind of compromise in the future.
So it is not: The Israelis are like that and the Palestinians are like that.

regards Axel

[ May 30, 2004: Message edited by: Axel Janssen ]
[ May 30, 2004: Message edited by: Axel Janssen ]

[Mapraputa Is]

JD: If you hit any city in Switzerland with a dirty bomb, will Switzerland be able to handle it? How about Belguim, Greece, etc.

Well, come on now. Europe survived two World Wars. You probably heard about them.

[Hussein O'Baghdadi]

hezbollah is a terrorist orgination or do you forget the kindnappings and palne hijackings?)

They kindnapping isrealies soldiers and a general which means they are not civilians.

All we see are a people who demand more and more everytime anything is
granted to them. Nothing is enough and it will never be enough until that last Jew is driven into the sea

as I remember, palestain is an arabic land, and as I remember isreali gangs (hagana, shtern .. just to mention two) came to palestain at 1948 and began to kill the people to establish isreal.
and you didn't yet answer on my question :
what do you think about the iraqis ? terrorists or freedom fighters ?

[Max Habibi]

Originally posted by Hussein Baghdadi:

what do you think about the iraqis ? terrorists or freedom fighters ?

Hussein,

I have a few questions of my own: are you really asking Americans how they feel about the people attacking American soldiers? Also, which Iraqis are you talking about? The ones who are shooting guns, or the ones peacefully protesting? finally, do you really think you're going to win hearts and minds by aggressive questioning?

M
[ May 30, 2004: Message edited by: Max Habibi ]

[Jason Menard]

A generlization is just that - a generalization. It's not an attempt to speak for every member of a group of people. Poll after poll continues to show that the majority of Americans support Israel in their conflict against the Palestinians. Therefore, it would seem that statements such as "Americans favor support for the Israeli position" are perfectly valid.

[Max Habibi]

Originally posted by Jason Menard:
A generlization is just that - a generalization.

And a horse is a horse, of course.

While I don't want to start debating the merits of one set of statistics versus another(a lifetime study of Mathematics has convinced me that polls are useless measures of opinion), suffice it to say that it's not my opinion that Thomas speaks for all Americans.

It's probably best to speak plainly of one's own opinion and experience, and express them as such.

HTH,
M
[ May 30, 2004: Message edited by: Max Habibi ]

[John Dunn]

MI: Why Portland?
I absolutely swear there was no pun or malice intended here!! but you must admit the coincidence is funny. (and hey, if it WAS my sub-conscious, then I must admit I'm envious!! )

Anyway, I was thinking that a dirty bomb in Boston, or DC could still be troublesome in NY just due to weather & wind BUT something in Portland, would probably not affect the tri-State area, (ny, nj, conn).

As for Switzerland... its not that big. So if a big dirty bomb went off in its biggest city EVEN IF everyone had a chance to depart, then it still would mean everything destroyed and no one lives there for a long time. Could a country with only a few big cities afford to lose one AND not be able to rebuild for a long time??? Don't you think the gloves would come off if that happened??

My point here is I think the rules will change after a 9/11-type atrocity occurs in a non-British European country. I'm guessing that Europe will give up the moral high ground when their backs are against the wall. I'm thinking of after WWI when the French punished the hell out of the Germans.
[ May 30, 2004: Message edited by: John Dunn ]

[Axel Janssen]

Originally posted by Hussein Baghdadi:

what do you think about the iraqis ? terrorists or freedom fighters ?

Hussein,

I hope the mayority are neither terrorists nor freedom fighters.
Freedom fighters/terrorists are in my view - don't take it personal - kind of little boys stuff. I thought this were a Java programmers forum (adult people, most of the time).
I hope and believe that the overwhelming mayority of Iraqies aren't wasting their energies in big ideas, but concentrate in more mudane tasks like clean up the rubble, do their job and build a democratic society based on the rule of the law with nasty capitalistically organized economy (we have no better, sorry).

I am german. And during my youth and kid-time my country was occupied by americans, french, british, belgian, dutch, russian and maybe soldiers from some other countries.
After the WW2 this did not harm much. We did farily well . Changed a bit in the last years, but this is another stories (too much of those became arrogant instead of hard working).
Back in after WW2 to my personal great luck there were very few people who thought about freedom fighting. Before they had followed a man who told them to free them from the oppression of the bad world against the poor and generally good willing "aryan race" (whatever that is). The result were concentration camps, destroyed europe, most perverse things going on and and and. They wanted to forget and concentrated on those phreaky more mudane tasks like clean up the rubble and do their job. Good politicians, the effort of the rubble cleaners and in the end forgiving neighbours helped us to build a democratic society based on the rule of the law with nasty capitalistically organized economy (we have no better, sorry).

As I consider myself an adult person (most of the time) I clean up my rubble and do my job.
I am working as an IT consultant/programmer in an economically for our standards difficult time. Do you think in my life there aren't lots of things to bitch about? In my more darker moments, I think it might not be that a bad idea to send some well trained freedom fighters to my current customer and kill 2 or 3 people, who are only complaining and obstructing our good work. But those are the darker moments. In reality, I am looking for ways to cooperate. Could be that those 2 or 3 people also sometimes hope for some freedom fighters to kill me, who is only lying, surfing the internet and wasting their money (which is not true, btw).
Minds of people do change, when I do my job and clean up the rubble.

So I hope that Iraqis build up souvereign nice society with rule of the law, democracy and nasty capitalism (because we have no better).

amen Axel
[ May 30, 2004: Message edited by: Axel Janssen ]

[John Dunn]

Can't we all just clean up the rubble?? uhh.. I mean get along!!

[Mapraputa Is]

"A Palestinian, a French and a German were summoned to meet God. God told them that they could each ask him one question that he would answer. The German went in to meet god and came out crying. The others asked him why he was crying. The German said he asked God about when will the German race rule the earth, and god told me the answer. I am crying because it will not be in my life time. The French went in and he came out crying. When asked about it he said that he had asked god about when will the French rule the earth. God told him the answer. I am sad because it won’t be in my life time. Finally the Palestinian went in and came out with a puzzled look on his face. The French and German wanted to know what happened. The Palestinian told them that that he said the following to God. I do not want to know when the Palestinians will rule the earth I just want to know when we will have our own country and live on our own not under military occupation. The German and French where curios, “so what did god say?”. The Palestinian man replied “God started to cry and he told me that it won’t be in his life time”. "

Ihath.

[Tony Alicea]

And I came up with this one myself:

The Three Lies:

The Check Is In The Mail

I Never Cheated on my Wife

There Soon Will Be Peace in The Middle East

[John Dunn]

[Edited. Sorry, just a bit over the top I'm afraid. -JM]
[ May 30, 2004: Message edited by: Jason Menard ]

[Axel Janssen]

Originally posted by Tony Alicea:
And I came up with this one myself: There Soon Will Be Peace in The Middle East

If you protest for the re-mexicanication of Texas because of Puerto Rican solidarity with Mexico, we could add

There soon will be peace in Florida as next point.

Or even better: Wasn't Florida part of the spanish colonies and only stolen in "7 year war" or some such from french and sold to americans later?
Qu� injustic�a m�s insoportable.
Why not buy a pump gun and tell every blond intruder to go to some other state?

In Europe for some 400 years it was like that:
Now the french do have Strassbourg. We germans have to re-occupy it. Or: Silesia is prussian and the polish wanted it back.
Germany had to first fall into the greatest barbarism of mankind before we were able to say: We are going to stop that crap now. Silesia is polish. Strassbourg french.

Hussein: How are you responsible for Palestinians if you are Iraqi Isn't there enough to do in your own country?
Isn`t that Uma thing (don`t know if its proper name: unity of all muslims) a very theoretic thing, flying 200 miles over earth. And could be very easily used by politicians to manipulate people?
[ May 30, 2004: Message edited by: Axel Janssen ]

[Tony Alicea]

But I don't protest the "re-Mexicanization" of anything.

What are you talking about?

In case you need to know, I was born a USA citizen and there is where my loyalties reside.

Careful...

[Axel Janssen]

didn't mean you personally. Just hypothetic case and about that there will be no peace, if people don`t stop digging for "injustice" in history, which they only know from books or "leaders".

[Tony Alicea]

OK.

[John Dunn]

[Edited. Sorry, just a bit over the top I'm afraid. -JM]
but damn funny, eh?

[Jeroen Wenting]

Originally posted by John Dunn:
will probably sell did you mean, 'has probably sold'?
[second attempt:] and IMHO, it will finally cause our harshest critics in Europe to finally get worried, knowing that if the US can get hit so bad so can Europe. But it won't be enough for them to simply comply with al queda b/c if one of their neighbors gets hit, they'll also be affected. I believe al queda will thrive on the chaos.

In the end, it will be the Europeans who help end terrorism as I believe - IMHO!!! - that they will end up with a take-no-prisoners attitude and show no constraint in going after alQueda, etc.

Far more likely the Europeans will immediately make a deal with the terrorists who did the act in order to prevent themselves from becoming the next target.
And yes, Al Qaeda will thrive on chaos. Chaos and uncertainty enhance their position until they're the only stable factor left so they can just walk in and take over.
Divide and conquer. First drive Europe and the USA apart, then fraction Europe.
Start by taking over small countries to get you a powerbase and once you have that start taking on ever larger ones.

[Axel Janssen]

Europe is cooperating with US against AlQuaeda. At least in my view.
Police, secret service, etc. And we'll stop AlQuaeda with those operations. Not with war.
Radical muslim elements are under much closer observation now. You can be sure. And if AlQuaeda perpetrate yet another attack in the US, I do most firmly believe, that there will be 120% cooperation with US.
How do you say, there are no attacks in Europe? Wasn't there this little train accident in Madrid? And in Dscherba-Tunisia attack mostly german tourists were killed. And there was a plan to bomb Christmas Market in Strassbourg. Only german and french police disclosed the whole thing before realization. Our president during Africa trip didn't go to Somalia, because there were warnings that some terrorists had plans to kill him during the visit.

[Hussein O'Baghdadi]

are you really asking Americans how they feel about the people attacking
American soldiers? Also, which Iraqis are you talking about?
The ones who are shooting guns, or the ones peacefully protesting?

I think this is a relative case, of course you (the americans) love your soldiers, not one could argue here.
do you think I am feeling happy when I heared that some one dies at iraq (and I mean any one here) ?
but do you know how we are feeling when we heared that more than 40000
iraqies died in this occupation (sorry, but I know war is happended btw two armies) ?
do you know how we feel when we saw abu ghraib's pics?
about shooting guns, how you (the americans) liberate your country ?

finally, do you really think you're going to win hearts and minds by aggressive questioning?

sorry, I don't mean to aggressive , but as you know, english is not my first language so maybe I have used some harsh words, or my method in writting is unaccetpable in english, sorry.
but I think there are facts, no one can change them.
I remember my fist post at javaranch which I have wrote in it :
I hope we will be all friends.
after all, I consider all the ranchers are my friends, actually I respect many ranchers here and I wish to like them (like Max, Dr. freidman Hill, kathy , Jeron, Bert, Eric.... just to mention).
but I am really sad when saw US ready to fight the arabs just for isreal (sorry all, but I think so).

After the WW2 this did not harm much. We did farily well

personally, I respect germany so much

[Axel Janssen]

Originally posted by Jeroen Wenting:

Start by taking over small countries to get you a powerbase and once you have that start taking on ever larger ones.

HaHa
Following your analsis:
... so in 1 year we could meet in Brusseles to take a tea (their new national drink) after Belgium has become AlQuaeida controlled "Islamic Republic of Belgium" watching their new green national flag.

[Axel Janssen]

Originally posted by Hussein Baghdadi:

personally, I respect germany so much

Under the impression of the most terrible crimes against mankind the germans accepted in 1945. No arguing against occupation. Not much complaining about treatment after war and the occupation forces were very angry in the beginning.
This was a stable basis for reintegration and to build up the country.
If the generation of my grandpas were thinking about taking revenge against bombing of cities, bad treatment of war prisioners especially in Rusia, expeling german people from eastern part and giving that land to Poland, etc, the country wouldn't have been rebuilded so quickly.
Its different from situation in Iraq in the point that Iraqis did not commit such terrible crimes.
If you want to reconstruct your country, it really might be good idea to forgive to those idiots of prosioner guards to stop this vicious cycle of taking revenge. Remember that a lot of Americans are very angry about what has happened in Abu Greib.

[Hussein O'Baghdadi]

Hi Axel...
I respect germany (and Japan), because they build their economy after the WW2 and now they considered the one of the best economies...
beside, I like german cars (BMW, Porsche, Audi... )

[Arjun Shastry]

We have one Grundig recorder from 1968 and still it works.

[Thomas Paul]

Originally posted by Hussein Baghdadi:
but I am really sad when saw US ready to fight the arabs just for isreal (sorry all, but I think so).

Truthfully, that is the general position of most Americans no matter what Max may think. Every poll shows that the US supports Israel because we see Israel as a friend and ally. The image we saw on our TVs after 9/11 were Palestinians celebrating in the streets.

[Max Habibi]

Hussein -Jon,


I think this is a relative case, of course you (the americans) love your soldiers, not one could argue here.



It's not so much that we love soldiers, it's that we love our people, just as you love yours. We would love your people too: we just can't get over the fact that some of them are trying to kill some of ours.

do you think I am feeling happy when I heared that some one dies at iraq (and I mean any one here) ?


no, of course not: intelligent people who've seen real tragedy generally wouldn't wish it on anyone.


but do you know how we are feeling when we heared that more than 40000
iraqies died in this occupation (sorry, but I know war is happended btw two armies) ?
do you know how we feel when we saw abu ghraib's pics?

I probably can't feel it to the same degree that you can, of course, but I think you would be surprised at how deeply I, and many, many other Americans, felt about this. People are people all over the world. A great many Americans were horrified to see people treated that way, and worse, to see people who wore our flag on their uniform perpetuating the torture.


about shooting guns, how you (the americans) liberate your country ?



I understand your point, but honestly, this isn't a valid tactic in this war. The Iraqi people are ill equipped and ill prepared to fight a war against the most powerful army in the world. This cannot be won through violence.



sorry, I don't mean to aggressive , but as you know, english is not my first language so maybe I have used some harsh words, or my method in writting is unaccetpable in english, sorry.



First, you english is already improving: keep posting, and I'll bet you'll see dramatic improvements.


Second:I understand your point, but let me make this challenge to you. Argue your points calmly, persuasively, and clearly. If you can get one American to see a new perspective, them you'll have done more good for all the yelling and such, even though the latter will probably make you feel better.

Most Americans don't know any Iraqis, and can't begin to see the Iraqi perspective. Be that Iraqi friend to them: earn trust over the months and years to come. I'm not suggesting that you stop making points, I'm just suggesting tht you do it in such a way that it will be better recieved.

but I think there are facts, no one can change them.
I remember my fist post at javaranch which I have wrote in it :
I hope we will be all friends.
after all, I consider all the ranchers are my friends, actually I respect many ranchers here and I wish to like them (like Max, Dr. freidman Hill, kathy , Jeron, Bert, Eric.... just to mention).
but I am really sad when saw US ready to fight the arabs just for isreal (sorry all, but I think so).



I understand your frustrations, but you have to aware that there are many sides to America, just as there are many sides to Iraq and Israel. Some are beautiful, some are aggressive, some are ill-informed, and some are trying to help you.

If you speak to a moderate person with the aggressiveness you feel towards an aggressive person, pretty soon you'll be speaking with two aggressive people.

All best,
M
[ May 31, 2004: Message edited by: Max Habibi ]