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Indians and "even"

 
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Rita: Which brings up another question, when does different dialect becomes actually different language?

Oooh, it's a point of great controvercy. The most famous definition belongs to Max Weinreich: "A language is a dialect with an army and a navy". I don't think there is any definite list of features, so it's often an open question, whether X is a dialect of Y or a separate language.

I cannot think of many russian dialects

Actually, some people (in West) think that Ukrainian and Belorussian are dialects of Russian :roll:
 
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Originally posted by Mapraputa Is:

Actually, some people (in West) think that Ukrainian and Belorussian are dialects of Russian :roll:



Ask them why not other way around, because Russia is bigger? Or because capital of USSR was in Russia?
It is actually surprising people in West know Belorussia and know that Ukrainian and Belorussian is similar to Russian, that's quite rare..Don't you think?
 
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"Shakhar" is in turn derived from the Sanskrit "Sharkara"; in fact most of the Indian languages are derived from Sanskrit, which is the mother of all Indian languages.

Originally posted by Jayesh Lalwani:



There are some words like Sugar, which is derived from Hindi word Shakhar...

 
Mapraputa Is
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Interesting. In Russian "sugar" is "SAkhar". ("s" like in "son")
 
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Originally posted by Avi Nash:
"Shakhar" is in turn derived from the Sanskrit "Sharkara"; in fact most of the Indian languages are derived from Sanskrit, which is the mother of all Indian languages.



that's because the process of creating sugar was developed in India in 500BC. History of sugar
 
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Originally posted by Rita Moore:
Isn't that amazing how some languages carry words of other languages.



If I am not mistaken, I know two words in Russian, 'kurta' and 'dwer', very similar to Hindi words with the same meanings, although Hindi 'dwar' is not that common anymore.
 
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I supressed my urge to say all Indian languages are based on Sanskrit lest a Tamilian should jump on me

I used to know a bit of Japanese once. When we started learning, the ending of questions was what struck me most. They have this 'wa ?' (if i remember right) like we would say "aa/ya/illeya ?"

Rita, i was so surprised the first time i ever heard Gypsy music. If you are interested you could read some of their history. They have so many words which are similar to Indian words (in one or the other language, but mostly Sanskrit and Hindi). They are the ones who kept moving from country to country and have their own language. They are mostly now in Hungary, i think (and plenty in West Europe too).
 
soumya ravindranath
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Originally posted by R K Singh:

For linguist Awadhi/Magdhi/Maithli/Bhojpuri/Bihari etc. could be different [/URL].



I can speak 5 Indian languages, but those i don't understand, i call "Bhojpuri"
Anyone here who can speak (and understand) any of the above mentined languages ?!
 
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May be somebody from Patliputra,LalooPrasad Yadav/Rabdi Devi might ne knowing them.
 
Arjun Shastry
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Originally posted by Mapraputa Is:
Interesting. In Russian "sugar" is "SAkhar". ("s" like in "son")



Many basic words from Sanskrit and Latin look similar.
Tri--tree
Penta--Punch
Deca--Dasham
Paternal--Pitroo
Maternal--Maatroo
Brother----Bhratroo
 
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Originally posted by Rita Moore:
Isn't that amazing how some languages carry words of other languages. Everytime I find some word of one of my mother tongues similar to a word of language of different country, I try to imagine how this word ended up in my language. And you can actually feel the layers of history.



Indeed. I'm learning Greek at the moment, and I keep coming across words that sound familiar to English. Its made me realise that if you can speak Greek, Latin and German you could probably understand most European languages. Mind you, if you were a good enough linguist to speak all those then understanding other languages probably wouldn't be that hard anyway.

Learning another language has made me realise how impressive it is that there are so many people on this site who are capable of having intelligent conversations in a foreign language, something that I am a long way from being able to do. Perhaps its just because I'm English, and the English always have trouble learning other languages, mostly as learning other languages has a very low priority in schools as every one else seems to know English. This also has the side effect that we also learn very little grammar - I finished my entire school education without ever knowing what adverb, pronoun, case, subjective noun and objective noun meant. Its only now as I study another language that I've had to learn these things.
 
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Originally posted by Rita Moore:



Hah, that's what all my indin friends tell me.

How about americans (and other nationalities), do you also think I'm misunderstanding "even"?

[ November 10, 2004: Message edited by: Rita Moore ]



Partly it has something to do with indian english dialect.

If they are living in a western country for long and still using this 'Even I am ...' that means they are feeling superior to the other subject in the coversation.
 
Sania Marsh
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Originally posted by Joe King:

Perhaps its just because I'm English, and the English always have trouble learning other languages, mostly as learning other languages has a very low priority in schools as every one else seems to know English. This also has the side effect that we also learn very little grammar - I finished my entire school education without ever knowing what adverb, pronoun, case, subjective noun and objective noun meant. Its only now as I study another language that I've had to learn these things.




This is one of the saddest things about american education. Knowing different language not only lets you speak it, it develops your brain, it makes you want to discover cultures of those languages..
Often when a foreigner makes mistake in english, americans can't pick up what he wants to say, because in their head sentence can be built only the way they do, which is very different from many other languages.
[ November 12, 2004: Message edited by: Rita Moore ]
 
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Hindi and Urdu (mostly Urdu) have lot in common with turkish, and all other turcic group languages, which reside on the asian part of ex USSR. Uzbeks, Kazakhs and Tatars, who speak turcic, must have brought those words like "sahar" ("shakar" in turcic), "chai", "dver" ("devar" in most turcic languages)..Russian has lot of words that seem to be originated in asian countries.
 
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Originally posted by Rita Moore:
Hindi and Urdu (mostly Urdu)



Isn't Hindi indo-european language? Like for example kurdish or nearly all european language including language where Gosha is "short form" of Igor (I learnt 10 minutes ago). And turkish is not indo-european as far as I know.
[ November 12, 2004: Message edited by: Axel Janssen ]
 
Sania Marsh
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Originally posted by Axel Janssen:


Isn't Hindi indo-european language? Like for example kurdish or nearly all european language including language where Gosha is "short form" of Igor (I learnt 10 minutes ago). And turkish is not indo-european as far as I know.

[ November 12, 2004: Message edited by: Axel Janssen ]



Well, still it has lots and lots of common words, here are some of the top of my head (excuse misspellings and if I mix in some Urdu words, I don't know either Urdu or Hindi):
Dunya (world)
Daraht (tree)
Zamin (Eath)
Zaman (Time)
Kiyamat
Divana
Ishk (Love)
Dil (Heart)
Surat (There are many different translations, some are face, picture, shape )
Asman (sky)
Sitara (star)
Adalat
Avaz (Voice)
Jan (Soul)
Shukur (thanks, appretiation)
Jigar (Liver)
Kasam
Sanam
Shisha (glass)
Piyaz (onion)

and many many more...
 
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Hey Soumya - am going to jump and dance on you now. ( of course am a tamilian ).

Heres a brief history of India. By now the ranchers should know that there are two major blocks - south India and north India. In some 1000s of BCs there existed a race called Dravidians - dark skinned living in the south. The Aryans were living in the north.

Now there is this history as told to Indians by British is that the Aryans were from Europe and they invaded India - because of 2 reasons. One being that the classical languages had some similarities : sanksrit & latin. The 2nd reason was the mighty British Empire's haughtiness that Europe was the cradle of modern civilization - and they exported everything to the world. They will not accept that perhaps the Aryans migrated to Europe. The history books are being rewritten as we speak.

Thats how we all learnt in our schools and the new generation is also learning the same thing - that Indians were invaded by an external race - which is so not true.

Coming back to Aryans and Dravidians. Both had distinct cultures, Gods, languages - sanskrit and tamil. Both these languages had coexisted for 1000s of years and there is so much mix and match. In fact Sanskrit is so much full of SHH. Pure tamil does not have that syllable at all. Modern tamil has accomodated SHH sound with an alphabet which is called the vadasol : North sound !! - how appropriate !!

Now just a few months back, finally, Tamil has been given classical language status. Others ridicule at this but we, Tamilians, take great pride in this. My wife is a Bengali - and she still does not accept Tamil in par with Sanskrit. We argue a lot and she never gets convinced. She speaks fluent Tamil and is picking up the nuances in the language pretty well.

Now shall we move our discussion to C++ vs Java
 
Jayesh Lalwani
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Originally posted by venkatraman kandaswamy:


Now there is this history as told to Indians by British is that the Aryans were from Europe and they invaded India - because of 2 reasons. One being that the classical languages had some similarities : sanksrit & latin. The 2nd reason was the mighty British Empire's haughtiness that Europe was the cradle of modern civilization - and they exported everything to the world. They will not accept that perhaps the Aryans migrated to Europe. The history books are being rewritten as we speak.

Thats how we all learnt in our schools and the new generation is also learning the same thing - that Indians were invaded by an external race - which is so not true.



Ahh!! the Indian Aryans were the "original race" theory!! Sounds good, but unfortunately there's no proof. The so called "Europeon" theory is basically based on dating fossil records and archeological artifacts. The "Indian-Aryans-as-the-original-race" theory is basically based on wishful thinking.
 
Venkatraman Kandaswamy
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Heres the link from Wikipedia which explains both the theories : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aryan_Invasion_Theory

Be your own judge.
 
Jayesh Lalwani
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I am aware of the "Vedic culture originated in India" theory, thank you veddy much. And beleive me, the theory is extremely interesting, but it's just a theory. There is not a bit of evidence that proves that Aryan culture predates the invasion from Europe. All the evidence found uptill now suggests that Aryan culture (or atleast the begginnings of an Aryan culture) was imported into India by invaders from Europe. Still, as your link says, 95% of the sites in India have not been excavated yet. So, yes, there is still a possibility that Aryan culture originated in India. However, unless we find proof that Aryan culture existing before the invasion from europe, or we find proof that the there was no invasion from Europe, then it's too early to start rewriting our History books.
 
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Axel: Isn't Hindi indo-european language?

Ethnologue database is the most authoritative source, AFAIK.

Look up Hindi and in "classification" section they give the whole classification tree:
Indo-European, Indo-Iranian, Indo-Aryan, Central zone, Western Hindi, Hindustani.

Uzbek: Altaic, Turkic, Eastern.

The first word is, as I understand, a language family.
 
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Rita: excuse misspellings and if I mix in some Urdu words, I don't know either Urdu or Hindi

Speaking about Urdu or Hindi, I read that it's basically the same language. Here is a good article about it.
 
Sania Marsh
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Originally posted by Mapraputa Is:
Rita: excuse misspellings and if I mix in some Urdu words, I don't know either Urdu or Hindi

Speaking about Urdu or Hindi, I read that it's basically the same language. Here is a good article about it.



As I learned from many Urdu and Hindi speakers, Urdu speaker understands all Hindi, Hindi speaker may not understand all Urdu words. Urdu has more Arabic and Turkish words than Hindi also.

Indian ranchers can answer this better, I guess.

Let me read the article though...
[ November 12, 2004: Message edited by: Rita Moore ]
 
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From the article Urdu vs Hindi:


Because the political vocabulary tends to be different between the languages, Pakistanis and Indians ordinarily don't understand each other's country's official radio and television broadcasts -- depite the fact that they understand each other's movies perfectly well!


I have friend who is Hindi speaker, he cannot understand Urdu movies, Songs, poems..
 
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Rita: excuse misspellings and if I mix in some Urdu words, I don't know either Urdu or Hindi

Ok, excused. Even English words indin, idian . I assume you meant indian.

On your first post, I agree with your interpretation of even. I also (not Even I) interpret it the way you do. There I said it. That said, the usage of this word by an Indian isin't necessarily used to convey the silent phrases that go with the interpretation that were previously pointed out. It most certainly is used to convey I also think....


Map:Speaking about Urdu or Hindi, I read that it's basically the same language. Here is a good article about it.
Even I think they are different. Some words are same/re-used, but the languages as such vary quite a bit. Unless, ofcourse you speak Hydarabadi, which is a mix of Hindi and Urdu with a touch of telugu and English.

- m

(Hopefully, the use of even in this post is valid.)
[ November 12, 2004: Message edited by: Madhav Lakkapragada ]
 
soumya ravindranath
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Originally posted by Jayesh Lalwani:
I am aware of the "Vedic culture originated in India" theory, thank you veddy much. And beleive me, the theory is extremely interesting, but it's just a theory. There is not a bit of evidence that proves that Aryan culture predates the invasion from Europe...



I remember watching a fascinating BBC documentary last year or so about the purest of Aryan race (almost extinct) living and being kind of 'protected' by Indian Govt. in some remote corners of Himachal Pradesh. The documentary analyzed their language, their physical characteristics etc. There was also this bit about Hitler trying to go after them to create the pure race. But there was still no conclusion as to whether they arrived from elsewhere or originated in India.
 
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Rita: This is one of the saddest things about american education. Knowing different language not only lets you speak it, it develops your brain, it makes you want to discover cultures of those languages..

Why "american education"? I studied German for .. let's see. 6 years in school and then 2 or 3 years (not sure) at the University. So what? I can neither read, nor write, forget speak German. And this studies didn't affect my thinking about a language in a slightest degree. I started to study English when I was 28, I think, and I could read books in a couple of years, and this language affected my thinking so much... Only because I *wanted* to learn it, and then I could *use* it. If you don't live in a country where the language you learn is used, it's a waste of time, I think. I want to revive my German, and I made several attempts, but ultimately for this I will have to live in Germany!
 
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Arjun: Many basic words from Sanskrit and Latin look similar.

There is a theory that Sanskrit and European languages (Latin in particular) are descendants of Proto-Indo-European (PIE) lanuage.
 
Axel Janssen
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Originally posted by Joe King:

if you can speak Greek, Latin and German you could probably understand most European languages.


With all those new neighbours, it might be wiser to learn russian, polish or czech. I have the impression that those slavic languages are more similar to each other than germanic languages like german and swedish or even german and dutch (ok last ones are a bit more similar).

Originally posted by Joe King:

because I'm English, and the English always have trouble learning other languages, mostly as learning other languages has a very low priority [...}


Don't say that. You should go to Greece and confront those greeks with your own flavour of greece. With the time it might get closer a bit to their Greece.
I work a lot with russians. They talk a lot, but they are quite shy on writing comments or documentation. That's because in those pieces of technical writing they develop an 110% perfectionism which in the end kills all writing effort.
I had an american co-worker who spoke excelent german. His written german was slightly more difficult to understand, but at least he had left some comments and documentation.
 
Sania Marsh
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Originally posted by Mapraputa Is:
Why "american education"? I studied German for .. let's see. 6 years in school and then 2 or 3 years (not sure) at the University. So what?



Because it has been 12 years since I took last french class, which I was taking for 4 years and I still can understand about 30 - 40% of french speach. Because when I translated historical articles from french they made more sence than reading in russian - I couldn't ignore as much, because I was paying more attention to each word. Because if not those classes I would never read Hugo. Because there I learned why flower "Bul'donej" in russia called what it's called and tons of other words.
French that I've met love to hear all those small poems and songs I learned as a child.
France is one of the countries I know most about, just because it interested me more the more I learned french.
How could all that be useless?

Growing most of the time among two nations in one country, I realized hater towards other nation was less in those who spoke the other language. It is also much harder to hurt someone when that someone speaks your language.
 
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Originally posted by Axel Janssen:

Don't say that. You should go to Greece and confront those greeks with your own flavour of greece. With the time it might get closer a bit to their Greece.



It does indeed help when I go to Greece - I find I learn more in a two week holiday there then I learn in months of evening classes. Hearing the language in its every day use is a real help. Only problem is that although I can understand a fair bit, my lack of grammatical ability means I find it very hard to know how to form replies... especially as English has no cases, genders, not many verb endings and no future tense. I end up sitting, nodding politely, and being completely unable to say something sensible. I mumble out some complete gibberish, but at least this entertains them.

The other problem they don't often mention in language courses is accents - as Greece has lots of different islands that spent much of their history fairly separated, its got lots of different accents. When I went to Crete I spent ages wondering what "Cheh" was, until I was told that they pronounced their "K" sound as "Ch" Suddenly it all made sense - they were saying "Kai" ("and"), one of the most simple words in the language! Despite that simplicity, the accent was enough to throw me off course. I suppose it all comes down to experience in the end - you can't beat it for learning efficiency.
[ November 15, 2004: Message edited by: Joe King ]
 
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Originally posted by Rita Moore:
I have friend who is Hindi speaker, he cannot understand Urdu movies, Songs, poems..



He might be Hindi Speaker, but is Hindi his mother tongue? I live in India and i have never met any person whose mother tongue is Hindi and can't understand urdu movies / plays.
 
Sania Marsh
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Originally posted by Prakash Dwivedi:


He might be Hindi Speaker, but is Hindi his mother tongue? I live in India and i have never met any person whose mother tongue is Hindi and can't understand urdu movies / plays.



Yes, it is his mother tongue, I believe he is from Gujrat. Even urdu speakers can tell which words Hindi speaker will understand which not.
Not that he couldn't understand anything, but he had to ask a words translation every min or two. With songs (especially gazals) it's worse for some reason.
 
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True.Many people (even Hindi speaking born and brought up in cities) are not much aware of Urdu.Mughal-E- Azam ,the movie which I saw recently ,I did not understand much in the conversation.
 
soumya ravindranath
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Originally posted by Rita Moore:

... With songs (especially gazals) it's worse for some reason.



Rita, are you really Russian
I know Iranians, Moroccans, Russians and many more nationals watch Hindi movies. But you seem to be well versed with more than just Indian movies
 
Arjun Shastry
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Soumya,Indian movies constitute much more than trivial Hindi movies.
 
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Originally posted by Prakash Dwivedi:


He might be Hindi Speaker, but is Hindi his mother tongue? I live in India and i have never met any person whose mother tongue is Hindi and can't understand urdu movies / plays.



A native Hindi speaker will understand movie/play in Urdu (there is visual context for dialogue ) but poetry/Ghazal is a different ball game. Most of earlier poetry (India) in urdu was Persian /Arabic infuenced. Now a days most of the indian ghazals are in Hindustani not Urdu.

Urdu poetry in Roman Script
Hindi Literature in Devnagri Script
 
achit bhatnager
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Originally posted by Rita Moore:


Yes, it is his mother tongue, I believe he is from Gujrat. Even urdu speakers can tell which words Hindi speaker will understand which not.
Not that he couldn't understand anything, but he had to ask a words translation every min or two. With songs (especially gazals) it's worse for some reason.



A ghazal loving Russian!!! great!!
 
Sania Marsh
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Originally posted by soumya ravindranath:


Rita, are you really Russian
I know Iranians, Moroccans, Russians and many more nationals watch Hindi movies. But you seem to be well versed with more than just Indian movies



did I say I'm russian? then I lied.
I'm not Russian, I look like one, I speak russian, but I'm not russian, I have so much blood mixed in me, I don't know what I am anymore. Russian is my mother tongue.
But I don't have any indian blood in me, if that's what you suspect, and I've never been to India or any other countries near it. I would love to though.
Yeah, i know much more than just movies, just happend so - friends, internet...
 
Sania Marsh
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Originally posted by achit bhatnager:


A ghazal loving Russian!!! great!!



Ghazals are not only in India!!! India has long history before it became india. Ghasals are spread through almost all Central Asia.
One thing I admit, India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Nepal... hold on to traditions stronger than many other countries in Asia.

And Russian speaking doesn't mean he/she is actually russian or even have been to Russia ever. Russian speaking nowadays means usually that the person was born in one of USSR countries. All those counries have their own language and culture, some of those cultures are much closer to indian than to russian.

By the way, in Russian, Ghazal is called "Gazel'" - which is also animal, but I'm pretty sure some russians (who were born and raised in Russia)have heard of them.
 
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