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Jayesh Lalwani: Bombay is not the only city that has an influx of people. Look at NY, LA and DC.

Are you claiming that people from Texas, Kansas, Ohio, Missouri, and other states, immigrate into NYC and form ghettos, at the same rate as people from UP, Bihar, Rajeshthan, Gujarat, West-Bengal, AP, Tamil Nadu, etc. enter into Mumbai?

Jayesh Lalwani: They are handling the problem quite well

Which problem are they handling and how?

What's the point you are trying to make?
a) Bombay's municipal administration is unable to perform as good as that of NYC?
I agree, whole heartedly.

b) Failing education system is the reason behind growing slums/ghettos in Bombay?
Disagree. Strongly.
[ December 15, 2004: Message edited by: Bhau Mhatre ]
 
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Easy now.

Thanks,
M
 
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Frank Silbermann responding to me:

That must be new. Even during the time of Labor's "White Australia" policy Australia was begging for immigrants. And I have seen an ad advocating vacation in Australia not too long ago.

Actually, it's old. I visited twenty years go, and remarked on my surprise at how difficult it was to get in, and the natives all agreed that it was purposeful government policy. I took Adrian's post to mean things hadn't changed, but it seems that perhaps they had time to change and change back in the interim.
 
Warren Dew
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Jason Menard:

The problem is exacerbated when the mortality rate of a population approaches that of the birth rate, which would result in zero population growth (ZPG).

Ultimately, we're going to need zero population growth. Why not start now?

This is the situation many Western nations, particularly in Europe, are finding themselves in. Italy's 2002 birth rate of 1.2 is dangerously close to ZPG, for example.

I'm not sure about Italy specifically, but numbers like that for Western Europe are generally cited on a per family basis. Zero population growth would be around 2 children per family. Most western European nations are well below that - they'd be at negative population growth rates but for immigration.
 
Warren Dew
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R K Singh:

I still have to find an immigrant family whose second generation is not localized. :roll:

It does happen. Generally, it happens when the first generation immigrants don't see a big advantage to having their children learn the local language; if the kids just learn their parents' language, they won't be able to communicate as well with the longer term natives, which will make it difficult for them to fully integrate socially.

I'm generally in favor of more open immigration to the U.S., but I think the current trend towards providing government services and education in immigrants' native languages is dangerous. It could well prevent successful integration of the large number of recent immigrants in the U.S., resulting in major social strife down the road. I'd rather see the extra educational funds spent on supplementary English classes for those who need it.
 
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Originally posted by Warren Dew:
R K Singh:

I still have to find an immigrant family whose second generation is not localized. :roll:

It does happen. Generally, it happens when the first generation immigrants don't see a big advantage to having their children learn the local language; if the kids just learn their parents' language, they won't be able to communicate as well with the longer term natives, which will make it difficult for them to fully integrate socially.

I'm generally in favor of more open immigration to the U.S., but I think the current trend towards providing government services and education in immigrants' native languages is dangerous. It could well prevent successful integration of the large number of recent immigrants in the U.S., resulting in major social strife down the road. I'd rather see the extra educational funds spent on supplementary English classes for those who need it.



I wasn't aware that America (the melting pot) had adopted Canada's multicultural approach to minorities. Here in Canada, it's been the standard practice for decades to cater to and celebrate the differences. This has led to Toronto and Vancouver being some of the most diverse cities on the planet, a feature that is used to competitive advantage. If you need to import goods from or sell them in Britain, Botswana, Burundi, Belgium, Bangladesh, Baghdad, Boston or Bangalore their is sure to be a native of that locality easily available for consultation.

I'm a Liberal and support this, there are Conservatives who think it's a terrible thing and that we should make everybody become some kind of boring Scots-Irish Canadian, but then I'd miss my Masala Dosas, Perogies and Saganaki.

Although differences are celebrated, most services are available only in English and French, on the other hand the 911 service in Toronto is available in 300 languages.
 
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Originally posted by Bhau Mhatre:
Jayesh Lalwani: Bombay is not the only city that has an influx of people. Look at NY, LA and DC.

Are you claiming that people from Texas, Kansas, Ohio, Missouri, and other states, immigrate into NYC and form ghettos, at the same rate as people from UP, Bihar, Rajeshthan, Gujarat, West-Bengal, AP, Tamil Nadu, etc. enter into Mumbai?



Yes, people are moving into those cities, but they dont form ghettoes because the population growth is handled well. Before any permits are given for offices/factories, enough space and resources are marked for houses, schools, roads, shopping malls, etc,etc. I'm not saying that those cities are perfect. But, there is a differrence between problems arising because of controlled growth and problems arising out of uncontrolled growth. Bombay has a problem of uncontrolled growth


Jayesh Lalwani: They are handling the problem quite well

Which problem are they handling and how?

What's the point you are trying to make?
a) Bombay's municipal administration is unable to perform as good as that of NYC?
I agree, whole heartedly.

b) Failing education system is the reason behind growing slums/ghettos in Bombay?
Disagree. Strongly.

[ December 15, 2004: Message edited by: Bhau Mhatre ]



I think you misunderstood. I never said that failing education system causes ghettoes. Uncontrolled growth causes ghettoes. I said that a failing education system excaberates the problem of ghettoes. When, poor people living in ghettoes do not get access to good education, they stay in the ghetto. They have children in the ghetto. The children dont get education, and dont qualify for well-paying jobs. So, the children settle in the ghetto and the vicious cycle continues. The problem with slums in Bombay is that once a slum starts forming it is very hard to get education and sanitation facilities into the slum. The only answer is to plan for housing/education/sanitation before the jobs are created.

On the bright side, there is a push to move job growth out to New Bombay area. Hopefully, this will divert some of the population influx to the New Bombay area. But, the congestion in Bombay wont get better unless the unplanned slums are replaced by planned residential areas
 
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peter wooster:

I wasn't aware that America (the melting pot) had adopted Canada's multicultural approach to minorities.

It hasn't been adopted as a matter of policy. It's just that as nonenglish speaking minorities move toward being majorities in some area, official material starts catering to them. Sometimes English is dropped.

Here in Canada, it's been the standard practice for decades to cater to and celebrate the differences. This has led to Toronto and Vancouver being some of the most diverse cities on the planet, a feature that is used to competitive advantage. If you need to import goods from or sell them in Britain, Botswana, Burundi, Belgium, Bangladesh, Baghdad, Boston or Bangalore their is sure to be a native of that locality easily available for consultation.

It has also led to near secession of Quebec a few years back, and policies since then that I've heard a lot of griping about from natives of regions with few French speakers.

Canada's policies work well when the immigrants are from a large variety of places; you end up with cosmopolitan cities like Toronto and Montreal where there is a lot of diversity. Because each group is small, though, they still need to learn the majority language. It wouldn't be so easy to consult with someone from Baghdad if you had no language in common with them, which is the situation I'm talking about.
 
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Originally posted by Bhau Mhatre:
Jayesh Lalwani: Bombay is not the only city that has an influx of people. Look at NY, LA and DC.

Bhau Mhatre : Are you claiming that people from Texas, Kansas, Ohio, Missouri, and other states, immigrate into NYC and form ghettos, at the same rate as people from UP, Bihar, Rajeshthan, Gujarat, West-Bengal, AP, Tamil Nadu, etc. enter into Mumbai?



I think you are trying to compare apple with orange. Because the number migrants enter in Bombay per day will be much more than number of person entering in NY, LA and DC.

And second, % of people who enter without anything(no money, no job) in Bombay again will be higher caompare to other cities.

Now coming back to original point, how to save local culture from immigrants remain same.
The solution proposed is controlled immigration, true, it will keep immigrants in minority but I do doubt that it will not impact the culture. Yes, number of worship places might be less but culture(way of life) will surely change.

Warren Dew :
It does happen. Generally, it happens when the first generation immigrants don't see a big advantage to having their children learn the local language;

As I say still I have to find it, but what you are saying is impractical as for first genration its difficult to adopt new culture but second generation which can not avoid interaction with local people, will get affected with local culture.
Very much possible back in their home they will be using their language and culture but when they are out for business or job, they are very much local.
They just cant ignore it becasue no one wants to be out of existing society.
 
R K Singh
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Originally posted by Jayesh Lalwani:

I'm talking about the "ghetto" problem, not localization of immigrants. Those are 2 seperate things. Bombay is probably the best example you could have given to illustrate my point. Taking the example of Bombay, Bombay is littered with slums, where people dont even have proper sanitation facilities. This is because there are too many people moving into Bombay. Bombay's ghettoes are growing everyday because of
a) the number of people moving into Bombay and
b) the failing education system in Bombay that fails to provide education where it's most required.



I think that ghettos will not be problem if people get localized.
 
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{
Before any permits are given for offices/factories, enough space and resources are marked for houses, schools, roads, shopping malls, etc,etc. I'm not saying that those cities are perfect. But, there is a differrence between problems arising because of controlled growth and problems arising out of uncontrolled growth. Bombay has a problem of uncontrolled growth
}
Thats the problem.If you remember,9 years back,the then state government was thinking about giving a restricted entry to people using permit/visa etc entering Mumbai.But there was a hue and cry.Social workers,citizens started showing Article xyz of constitution which allows every citizan to go anywhere in a country without anybody's permission.So the plan was cancelled.
Now imagine ,permit system becomes reality.Company abc wants to hire person who is in Assam.He is definetely interested in joining but Muncipal corporation says,there is no enough space to live?Whats the solution?He may argue that that corporation is allowing many people to live illegally in slums but not allowing me who will work legally and pay the taxes.
 
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[RKS]: I think that ghettos will not be problem if people get localized.

I'm not sure I understand. Are you saying ghettos are not localized enough? Maybe ghetto-dwellers should relocate to their region of origin? Or that people should just accept such localization as the norm? Something else? From my perspective, your statement seems nonsensical - ghettos are already examples of extreme immigrant localization. But I don't know if I've understood you correctly...
 
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Jim, I think he meant localised in the sense of being integrated into the local community.
 
Arjun Shastry
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For those who are interested in ghettos/slums etc in Mumbai,kindly read Maximum City.Author has described their life.
 
R K Singh
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Originally posted by Helen Thomas:
Jim, I think he meant localised in the sense of being integrated into the local community.



You are right

Sometimes ghettos become a city inside city with total different language, culture etc. Instaed of coming out of their ghetto, they tend to live in side it. That makes people living in ghettos to cut-off from local people, culture.

I seen an example of ghetto in Calcutta. They were all from UP, the moment you enter in that area, you cant say that you are in Calcutta. Language, dress etc everything was like UP. People were so self sufficient that now they dont need to interact with local people for their survival. Only 10-15% people were interacting with local people, others were just living inside ghetto with their own shop or some other kind of small business which had market inside the ghetto.

But Calcutta has become used to such kind of ghettos because they are very old and very few. New ghettos are not coming up now in Calcutta as Bombay has become new destination(from last 50-65 yrs) for immigration.

The plus point of Bombay was that, to survive everyone has to come out of their ghettos, so though there are ghettos of different region/culture in Bombay but culture in all ghettos are same, that is Bombay culture i.e. common language that is mix of Guju, Hindi, Marathi, Tamil etc., festivals are common etc.
Ahhaaa.. Bombay.. my dream city, in true sense secular, socialist cum capatilist city
 
Arjun Shastry
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Ravish,were you there during 1992-1993 in Mumbai?Have you actually gone to slums/Apts and confirmed whether people are truly secular or not?In my experience people there just to earn like us and hence other issues become secondary.But those issues get importance when time comes.
 
R K Singh
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Originally posted by Arjun Shastry:
Ravish,were you there during 1992-1993 in Mumbai?



Are you are talking about Ayoudhya riots? whole India was burning.. so what does it mean ?
AW today you can see, where those political parties are, who were trying to communalise Bombay.

Have you actually gone to slums/Apts and confirmed whether people are truly secular or not?
Slums .. yes, Apts very much. I lived in Bombay for almost 6 months.

In my experience people there just to earn like us and hence other issues become secondary.
hmm.. I think life style of Bombay makes these people different from other people. They are by nature helpful. They dont interfere in your life. They are time conciuos. They know how to live each and every moment. There is no difference between poor & rich and more over they respect each other. Lot of things are there, which makes mumbaites different from other people.
Yes, thugs are there and they are everywhere .. I am talking about common man.

Actually you are right, in Bombay everyone just want to make money, he does not care about anyone/anything.
 
peter wooster
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Originally posted by Warren Dew:
It wouldn't be so easy to consult with someone from Baghdad if you had no language in common with them, which is the situation I'm talking about.



Actually most of the people involved have a certain amount of knowledge of the common languages, ESL is very popular. I did have an interesting language experience several years ago.

My aging Alfa Romeo broke down in Quebec city, the fuel pump had died. The tow truck drive who spoke French and English towed it to the Bosch shop. The technician there spoke French and German, he called the Alfa dealer in Toronto and spoke to a technician there who spoke German, English and Italian, he got the part from the parts man who spoke Italian and Arabic and a bit of English. Three days later the car was back on the road and we had a wonderful visit to Quebec city on foot.
 
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Originally posted by Bhau Mhatre:
Are you claiming that people from Texas, Kansas, Ohio, Missouri, and other states, immigrate into NYC and form ghettos, at the same rate as people from UP, Bihar, Rajeshthan, Gujarat, West-Bengal, AP, Tamil Nadu, etc. enter into Mumbai?



As agriculture in the deep south became mechanized in the 1940s and 50s, millions of sharecroppers (landless tenant farmers) moved to northern cities. Some went to cities such as Detroit to become laborers on the automobile assembly lines, and others went to NYC to get on welfare (the dole). (NYC was very "progressive", and its urban programs were the prototype for President Johnson's national programs in the middle 1960s.) When welfare became national, all cities across the nation were affected.

Those who chose to work (at whatever jobs they could get) assimilated, but many decided it was easier to break up families so that mothers could qualify for AFDC (Aid for Families with Dependent Children), and eventually stopped marrying in the first place. Three generations of this lifestyle now results in large urban zones of widespread drug-addiction, child abuse, and levels of crime and violence more typical of places like Jamaica or the slums of Brazil.
 
Jayesh Lalwani
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Originally posted by Arjun Shastry:
{
Before any permits are given for offices/factories, enough space and resources are marked for houses, schools, roads, shopping malls, etc,etc. I'm not saying that those cities are perfect. But, there is a differrence between problems arising because of controlled growth and problems arising out of uncontrolled growth. Bombay has a problem of uncontrolled growth
}
Thats the problem.If you remember,9 years back,the then state government was thinking about giving a restricted entry to people using permit/visa etc entering Mumbai.But there was a hue and cry.Social workers,citizens started showing Article xyz of constitution which allows every citizan to go anywhere in a country without anybody's permission.So the plan was cancelled.
Now imagine ,permit system becomes reality.Company abc wants to hire person who is in Assam.He is definetely interested in joining but Muncipal corporation says,there is no enough space to live?Whats the solution?He may argue that that corporation is allowing many people to live illegally in slums but not allowing me who will work legally and pay the taxes.




I think they are right. Every citizen of a country has the right to move and work anywhere s/he wants. Providing work permits inside a country is not only unpractical, but it also takes away one of the basic rights of the citizen.

The way it works in US is that job growth is planned. Land is zoned out into industrial, commercial and residential areas, and there are controls over how many people can occupy the land. So, let's say that a piece of land is zoned as industrial/offices that will provide jobs for 10000 people. Now, let's say the average family is 2 working parents and 2 children. So, for 10000 new jobs, 20000 people are going to move in. So, they zone residential areas that will house 200000 people. Now these 20000 people need somehwere to shop. So, they zone commercial areas that will have the required number of shops. They build enough schools and parks for the 10000 kids. They build highways to the industrial/office areas. They build enough police/fire stations/hospitals to serve the 20000 people. And, all of this is done by the local community. The people who are already in the community have a say in how the town is developed. I have lived 23 years in Bombay, and 6 in US, and I have never seen any system like this in Bombay. Factories, Shops and residential areas start popping up suddenly. The entire development is so chaotic that it becomes tottally unmanageable. Some bureaucrat decides that there should be a factory here, and a factory appears. Some guy decides to open a fruit stand on the sidewalk, and he opens it, without anyone doing anything about it. Somebody decides to build a house out of bric-bracs in front of my apartment, and he builds it. OTH, The chaos does add personality to Bombay, and a lot of Bombay culture has come out of the ghettoes. But, at one point, we have to ask ourselves whether it is worth having people live in sub-human conditions?
 
R K Singh
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Originally posted by Jayesh Lalwani:
But, at one point, we have to ask ourselves whether it is worth having people live in sub-human conditions?



Living in sub-human condition is better than dying hungry.

The thing which works for US might not work well at all places.

You cant compare 300-400 yr old cities to 1000 yr old city. Having said that, I agree things should be planned in advance, I think Navi Mumbai and Vasi area are good example of planned city. Even Noida is also upto some extend good example. I have not been to Chandigarh but I heard that its also well planned.

Sometime I feel that everything boils down to one thing.. thats money and population.
If today just simply half the population of India, 1 Rs. will equal to 20$ only. If you are getting Rs 100/- you will get Rs. 200/-. Resources available to you would be doubled.
But then one has to pay price of being oldest civilisation too
As they say, old is gold and new is diamond.
 
Bhau Mhatre
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Max H: Easy now.
Sorry Max. Tone was unintentional. I'll be careful.

peter wooster: If you need to import goods from or sell them in Britain, Botswana, Burundi, Belgium, Bangladesh, Baghdad, Boston or Bangalore
Okay, you win. 8 against 3

Frank Silbermann: As agriculture in the deep south became mechanized ...
Thanks for the info! Not sure what was the message though

Jayesh Lalwani: The way it works in US is ... I have lived 23 years in Bombay, and 6 in US, and ...
So who's to be blamed? What's the solution now?
And what's the answer to Wallace's confusion?
 
Jayesh Lalwani
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Originally posted by Bhau Mhatre:

[b]Jayesh Lalwani: The way it works in US is ... I have lived 23 years in Bombay, and 6 in US, and ...

So who's to be blamed? What's the solution now?
And what's the answer to Wallace's confusion?



I dont see any point in placing blame on anyone, the goverment or the immigrants or the slum-dwellers. And I dont have any solutions. There are city planners that specialise in that sort of thing. People should start listening to them. All I wanted to say is that ghetto problems occur due to uncontrolled growth. Some people on this board implied that migration of workers causes ghettoes. I wish to say that is not wholly true. Uncontrolled migration causes ghettoes, and before people start pointing fingers at foreign workers, they should first see what their own goverment is doing about it.
 
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