Do you give money to beggars?

[Jason Menard]

Originally posted by Max Habibi:
I'm also not aware of beggars borrowing children(I wonder where they get them? Who are the parents? Are there groups of people out there who are not beggars, yet lend their children out to beggars? Is this a cottage industry? If so, how do the beggars pay them? Is this a common phenomena?).

Sarcasm aside, they get them from relatives or friends I would think. What the arrangements are (babysitting? share of the profits?), I really wouldn't know. In any event, I don't think it's all that common.

[James Carman]

Is there anything set up where we can "loan" our children to these people for a share of the profits? I think it's time my 6 year old daughter starts pulling her own weight around here.

[Max Habibi]

I'm up: I'll be on the corner of fifth & high this afternoon. Say 70/30?

[Steven Bell]

Lets equate this to something we are all familar with. Begging for code.

Somebody posts a request for code on the forum. Is it helpful for us to write the code for them. In most cases it would only take a few minutes. But time and time again I see people here at the ranch, myself included, refuse to simply give these people a small simple progam. Why? because we all know that by giving them the code we are not helping them. We instead spend much more time guiding and pushing them to learn and accomplish something on their own.

The same applies for begging for money. Sure we could take the easy way out, give them a some change or a couple bucks. They might say 'thank you', might make us feel better, and then we could go on with our day. But are we really helping them out by enabling them to continue begging day after day. Wouldn't it be better if nobody gave them money, but rather directed them to one of the several organizations available to help them get back on their feet?

When I was in the military I spent a little time in Panama. We had several large dumpsters behind the barracks we stayed at. I would watch entire families wade through our dumpsters looking for food that we had thrown away. While we were training in the jungle I would see locals running after us picking up the brass as we shot so that they could sell it for money (I think the Army bought back the brass). We would be out in the middle of the jungle and along would come some young teenager with a cooler full of cokes and other treats they would sell to use for money, or trade for food. Not one time did any of these people ever beg me or anybody else in my platoon for money. I have far more respect for them than I do for any of the snivling whinny beggers in the US who spend day after day standing at a street corner collecting cash.

[Warren Dew]

Mapraputa Is:

As for them being lazy, I would rather say "detrained". If they want to get their life back to normal ("normal" from our POV, of course), they can, but to press them do it by not giving money isn't right, I think.

Er, so one is obligated to give money to everyone one meets on the street? After all, who are we to say that the way they would spend it is wrong? Is it "not right" for me to refuse to go to a restaurant and give them money just because the food they serve isn't "normal" to me - should I go anyway, even if I can't stomach the cuisine?

Or is it only beggars that one is obligated to give money to? In that case, how would you come to the judgement that their way of life is always deserving of my money, but people who work for a living are only deserving in some cases?

I don't think that refraining from giving people money is "pressing" them to do anything. Quite the contrary: none of us give money to more than a tiny fraction of the world's population. It's when we actually do give money that we're making a judgement, by encouraging those we give money to.

[Jason Menard]

Originally posted by Steven Bell:
Not one time did any of these people ever beg me or anybody else in my platoon for money. I have far more respect for them than I do for any of the snivling whinny beggers in the US who spend day after day standing at a street corner collecting cash.

Exactly! It was the same way in Turkey, and I assume many other third world countries. Shining shoes, sweeping floors, doing laundry, whatever it took to earn a living people would do. And they were very hard workers, with too much pride to ask for handouts. How can you not respect that.

On the other hand, I met a woman begging in Paris who, when we gave her some money, gave it back to us and chewed us out in perfect English for not giving her enough.
[ May 06, 2005: Message edited by: Jason Menard ]

[James Carman]

I heard about a guy in San Francisco on Fisherman's Wharf that stands behind a bush or something and jumps out and scares people for money. Once you get scared, you stand by and watch him scare someone else. For the entertainment value, folks give him money. I would definitely give that guy money!

[Roger Johnson]

i wonder if you do a google search of key words "map lazy beggar", this thread will be right there on the top!

[James Carman]

Here's an article about that guy on Fisherman's Wharf.

[Max Habibi]

Originally posted by Steven Bell:
Lets equate this to something we are all familiar with. Begging for code.

Somebody posts a request for code on the forum. Is it helpful for us to write the code for them. ... Why? because we all know that by giving them the code we are not helping them.

I think this is where the analogy breaks down: We don't, as a matter of reality, all know that giving them money is bad for them. As a matter of fact, some of us believe that it's helpful, immediate, and kind.

I also disagree that it's easier to give money then to not give money. Most people are only too happy to avoid losing money, and some will rationalize it. I'm not suggesting that anyone here doing so, but I can understand the temptation. I would also like to believe that these people do not need my help. Unfortunately, I do not believe that.

M

[Max Habibi]

Originally posted by herb slocomb:


Ah, the virtuous poor...

I worked as a "social worker" for 3 years adminsitering food stamps, welfare money, and medical assistance to the needy.

Where did you work, if you don't mind me asking? Your experience isn't consistent with the observation of most of the people in the industry, AFIK.

M

[Steven Bell]

Originally posted by Max Habibi:

I would also like to believe that these people do not need my help. Unfortunately, I do not believe that.

M

I'm not saying that they do not need help. I'm saying that giving them money is not help. I have yet to see a situation described where giving somebody money over getting them help is good for them. Is it good to give an alcoholic a drink? Is it good to give a heroin addict a fix? Rather than let them limp on I prefer to put money into organization that actually try to get people off the street and make them self sufficient. Unfortunatly many homeless do not want this as they like their lifestyle where they get free food, shelter, money, ect... and have no responsiblity.

As far as respect goes it is not something you give for free. In order for respect to mean anything it must be earned.

[Max Habibi]

Originally posted by Steven Bell:


I'm not saying that they do not need help. I'm saying that giving them money is not help.

I understand your statement, but I disagree with it. I do think that giving a begger some change will help him/her, maybe enough to go get a burger.

I don't think it neccessily follow that all beggers are drug addicts and/or alcoholics. Correspondingly, I don't believe they should be treated as if they were. For that matter, I believe that even drug addicts and alcholics have to eat, and that they have to do so pretty much everyday. Yes, I belive that we need longer term solutions: but that won't help someone who's hungray now.

All in all, it seems that most of the people on this board are in agreement: we should help the poor/beggers. The question then becomes, what's the best way to do that? It seems to me that the solution needs to multidiminsional: some immediate help, and some long term help.

It's encouraging, to me, that so many people are willing to support long term help. Maybe if Map and I are able to keep them fed long enough, the rest of the (generous) posters will find a long term solution

M

[Warren Dew]

Steven Bell:

We would be out in the middle of the jungle and along would come some young teenager with a cooler full of cokes and other treats they would sell to use for money, or trade for food. Not one time did any of these people ever beg me or anybody else in my platoon for money. I have far more respect for them than I do for any of the snivling whinny beggers in the US who spend day after day standing at a street corner collecting cash.

In defense of the beggars, I'd note that it's not as easy to set up in trade in the U.S. If you're selling cokes and other treats, you generally have to file paperwork for your 'business', and you're typically required by law to track your receipts and collect taxes. You have to do business in an area that is properly zoned. You have to get the proper permits, etc., etc. The whole process is far more complicated and difficult. I'd be surprised if those teenagers in Panama had to do as much.

Perhaps one of the things we could do to help those in need is to make it a little simpler and easier for them to help themselves in a productive way.

[Steven Bell]

Max:
I understand your statement, but I disagree with it. I do think that giving a begger some change will help him/her, maybe enough to go get a burger.

So buy them a burger rather than giving them cash. Of course there is a good chance it will get thrown back at you. I live in the NW US. A homeless person here can get roughly 6 meals a day for free. It's not money for food their begging for.

Warren:
Perhaps one of the things we could do to help those in need is to make it a little simpler and easier for them to help themselves in a productive way.

Absolutly. Small business has to jump through far to many hoops. Personally I think this has to do with:
1) large business having much influence in politics
2) people being lawsuit happy

I actually think Hong Kong has a great setup, something we could learn from. You can go from an idea to a running business with a couple of simple forms (to the best of my understanding).

[Thomas Paul]

I'm not aware of the article in question: perhaps you can provide a link?

It was in the Sunday magazine about a year or two ago. I'm sure you can find it with a search but the NY Times charges for access to their archives.

My personal, first hand experience is that the vast majority of the homeless are without places to sleep and food to eat:

That certainly is not my first hand experience. NYC has plenty of shelters and there are hundreds of soup kitchens throughout the city and surrounding communities.

To be honest, if I were forced to sleep on the streets and live off the charity(or not) of my fellow man, I might be tempted to turn to drugs as well.

You have it backwards. People don't turn to drugs because they are homeless. People take drugs and end up homeless because they lose their jobs and homes.

I would be very, very surprised if the article actually attributed the mental health problems of the homeless to an unwillingness to take medication.

It is a common problem here in the city. A homeless mental patient gets violent and is arrested. He is treated for his mental illness with medication and the charges are dropped. He then stops taking his medication because either he doesn't like the side effects or because he would rather smoke crack. He gets violent and gets arrested again.

[Mani Venkatesan]

Originally posted by Dipak Mahbubani:
My country India is a begging country.everybody is begger so its give and take relationship.

I dont know about you, my country man, but I am no beggar! Dont generalize...please...

[Michael Ernest]

Here on the West Coast, which is fairly seasonable outdoors all year round, there's a real economy in the practice of asking for change. People claim to "own" certain spots, corners, etc. I'll be teaching in SF next week, and I can describe right now who's likely to be sitting on Spear St. between Mission and Market. He's got a pretty good act -- like he's only half there. I dare the person who makes eye contact and just walk away not to feel like shit, though. This guy has the baleful stare down cold. He's also got a veteran on the corner on Market and Spear, just outside the BART train entrance who comes off more like a cabbie you didn't tip. They'll take a stab at you -- emotionally, of course -- and see if change comes out. It's what they do.

I find myself looking closely at these people to understand them what makes them tick. I'm torn between wanting to give something -- probably only to make myself feel better, I admit: there but for the grace of God go I and all that -- and not wanting to feed an economy that merely sits and waits for income to walk by.

I give to food banks, put gifts in Christmas barrels, things like that, but I'm also mindful of the ones that spend a high percentage on 'administration' -- not-for-profit, after all, doesn't mean a company can't make money. It just means they can't capitalize on their income. So whomever owns it zeroes out the accounts every year -- there's no innate altruism in charitable institutions.

I'm quite likely, though, to drop folding money on a street artist. I'm happy to encourage anyone who's adding what they can to the streets. A good tune goes a long long way.
[ May 06, 2005: Message edited by: Michael Ernest ]

[Axel Janssen]

Me too gives rarely money to beggars.
In my old city Cologne was a bit different, because its more sentimental habitat. Dificult to explain. Not to anybody and preferably the older ones. Some had quite entertaining performance, but they lived very much in their own world.
Behind all the show must be a sad story.
I've seen 10 year old girls who used to beg around university picked up by quite new Mercedes car, but one can not generalize.
I've once had lost my traveler checkes in my way to visit my cousin near spanish border in the south of France. It was weekend and it took 2 days to get them back the checks from Thomas Cook. I had no money and lived in a camp of german begars, because I had enough money for eating, but not for hotel and they were there. Experts in using the local plants as drugs. I did not take. They were in a way a close group, but allways on alcohol or some kind of drug, which results in living in weird inner space, not group. Was happy to get my money back to return to normal society.
[ May 06, 2005: Message edited by: Axel Janssen ]

[Warren Dew]

Michael Ernest:

I'm quite likely, though, to drop folding money on a street artist. I'm happy to encourage anyone who's adding what they can to the streets. A good tune goes a long long way.

I put street artists in a different category. The artists are providing an honest service. In a way, they are providing the most honest of services, as customers need not pay unless they like what they hear or see.

[Jeroen Wenting]

I never give to beggars.

Most beggers would spend the money on drugs and booze. Food they can get for free from places like the salvation army and city shelters, clothes from charity as well.

As always the few truly needful suffer under the rest but that can't be helped.

[Stan James]

Where I lived before there were guys on the corners with signs, will work for food. Course they really just wanted cash and tried to talk their way out of any work. And somebody drove bunches of them around town to and from various corners. Pretty nasty scam.

We saw a man in a fast food place the other day counting his few coins and checking the menu very carefully, finally gave up and just put his head on the table. My wife talked with him a minute and gave him a few bucks. I think he really needed the food.

[Ryan McGuire]

Originally posted by James Carman:
I heard about a guy in San Francisco on Fisherman's Wharf that stands behind a bush or something and jumps out and scares people for money. Once you get scared, you stand by and watch him scare someone else. For the entertainment value, folks give him money. I would definitely give that guy money!

When we were on vacation, my wife and I ended up sitting at the window table in the restaurant right across the walkway from this guy. We got more entertainment from him than from some of the singing waiters and whatnot we've endured. After dinner we went over and gave the guy $5. He was worth twice that.

The other biggest individual target of my generosity is the guy playing the saxaphone outside Cleveland sporting events. (Go Cavaliers!) He would take requests, and I've never seen anyone stump him. One time the crowd of passersby was rattling off Motown songs, stuff from the 20s and 30s, modern (mid to late '90s at the time) hits, and he was able to play every one. When he knew my request, Birdland by Weather Report, it was worth twice the going rate of a buck a song. I haven't seen him the last couple times I've been in the area. I hope he's ok.

So in general I'll give a buck or two to someone who at least provides some entertainment or other service (shoe shine, etc.). But I rarely give anything to the beggars that are just looking for a handout. However, if I see someone eating out of a garbage can, I'll offer a little something without even being asked.

Ryan
[ May 08, 2005: Message edited by: Ryan McGuire ]

[Jeroen Wenting]

Originally posted by Stan James:

We saw a man in a fast food place the other day counting his few coins and checking the menu very carefully, finally gave up and just put his head on the table. My wife talked with him a minute and gave him a few bucks. I think he really needed the food.

He probably did. Though I'd more likely have given him food than money.

[Ben Souther]

Originally posted by Ryan McGuire:

The other biggest individual target of my generosity is the guy playing the saxaphone outside Cleveland sporting events. (Go Cavaliers!) He would take requests, and I've never seen anyone stump him. One time the crowd of passersby was rattling off Motown songs, stuff from the 20s and 30s, modern (mid to late '90s at the time) hits, and he was able to play every one. When he knew my request, Birdland by Weather Report, it was worth twice the going rate of a buck a song. I haven't seen him the last couple times I've been in the area. I hope he's ok.

So in general I'll give a buck or two to someone who at least provides some entertainment or other service (shoe shine, etc.). But I rarely give anything to the beggars that are just looking for a handout. However, if I see someone eating out of a garbage can, I'll offer a little something without even being asked.

Ryan

[ May 08, 2005: Message edited by: Ryan McGuire ]

I think you're confusing two entirely different classes of people.
There are plenty of very well off musicians with good day-jobs who enjoy taking it to a park or corner to play for passers by and making a few extra bucks.

I don't think any of them would consider themselves beggers.
[ May 08, 2005: Message edited by: Ben Souther ]

[Ryan McGuire]

Originally posted by Ben Souther:



I think you're confusing two entirely different classes of people.
There are plenty of very well off musicians with good day-jobs who enjoy taking it to a park or corner to play for passers by and making a few extra bucks.

I don't think any of them would consider themselves beggers.

I don't think I was mistaken in this case. Judging from the guys threadbare clothes and the fact nobody wanted to stand downwind from him, I'd guess he didn't have a regular income. Then again, he may have been "in costume" to play on people's sympathies. Either way, the music was worth it.

Ryan

[Alan Wanwierd]

I recall a conversation I overheard in the early 90's in the UK when property prices had crashed and 'negative equity' was common:

beggar: "Can you spare any loose change so I can get something to eat?"
respectable guy in suit: "Dont you have any money?"
beggar: "None at all"
respactable man: "No bank account?"
beggar: "No"
respactable man: "No stuff you could sell?"
beggar: "No"
respactable man: "Well Ive got a mortgage for eighty thousand pounds and a house worth only sixty thousand - so by my calculations you have twenty thousand pounds more than me - Can you spare some of the change you've made today so that *I* can get something to eat?"

...at that point the beggar wandered off looking confused and iritated!

[Mapraputa Is]

WD: Er, so one is obligated to give money to everyone one meets on the street?

Surely not. I am thinking about "I won't give them money because they will spend it on drugs or alcohol and it's not good for them" argument that apparently work for people who would give money otherwise. I am not talking about people who prefer to feed children in Africa, because they are much worse off than US homeless, which is very likely, or prefer not to give for whatever other reason -- that beggars don't deserve help, for example, a perfectly valid reason. For myself I feel that if I don't take this person's hand and walk him into this shiny place where he can get food, shelter, drug/alcohol rehab, counseling etc, etc, etc, which I don't, then I should at least help him to get through this one night, as Max said. Therefore money instead of food, and if he decide to spend it on alcohol or drugs, so be it.

[R K Singh]

Originally posted by Mapraputa Is:
[b]For myself I feel that if I don't take this person's hand and walk him into this shiny place where he can get food, shelter, drug/alcohol rehab, counseling etc, etc, etc, which I don't, then I should at least help him to get through this one night, as Max said.

I think it has to do something with country condition also.

Its shocking to see someone asking for food in First world country. But its not a rare seen, there are beggers with coke glass asking for money, with a board "need money for food" on traffic signals.

I know when your stomach is full you think of clothes and when you have clothes you think of roof over you and when you have all you think of pleasure.

But still for me, belonging to third world country, food & clothes are primary thing. I think I cant give pleasure of one night for alcohal/drugs or anything apart from basic need.

I have been giving money in/directly but I cant give money for pleasure. I might be selfish for enjoying those pleasure for myself... yaa.. sometimes I have bought whisky also but that time I was drunk.. giving cigarettes to beggers is common for me.. But I give cigarettes only when they ask for it.. and most of the time I would be smoking and they will ask for cigarette. At that time it looks like why they should be deprived from the pleasure of cigarettes...

I can buy whisky/cigarette but still I think I cant give money for that... and now I am analyzing that when I buy it.. I am like them either drunk or smoking....

I spend more amount in trains to give money to person who cleans the train because he is working.. Actually some people are not begger, like the musician playing along the road side... if you like her music then pay her else just move on. She is not begger.

Once I asked one begger to clean the road, but that small boy refused to do so.. and I did not give him money.

Map, its nice to give pleasure.. but dont you think it should be earned.

I wish you continue to give money to beggers, but if you ever get a chance to give some small work to them, try it[ask them to clean your car, you give them clothe.. even if its clean say them to clean it]. Whether they want to earn their pleasure or they want to survive on begging business.
[ May 10, 2005: Message edited by: R K Singh ]

[R K Singh]

Originally posted by Max Habibi:
I wonder where they get them? Who are the parents? Are there groups of people out there who are not beggars, yet lend their children out to beggars? Is this a cottage industry? If so, how do the beggars pay them? Is this a common phenomena?

I am really sorry.. but its true.. it might not be true in First world country but its true.
Oh .. why not first world country .. 3-4 weeks back I met a african american with white child on his shoulder.. I gave him money because he knew Hindi.. it was nice talking to him in HIndi.. I gave him money for his talent to learn HIndi.. he asked me some more new words in Hindi.. very much possible his market is south asian people because he knew that Pakistan, India and Bangla Deshis understand this language.

In India, in New Delhi, there are group of women who pretend that one of them is pregnant and needs money to go to doctor (generally these women are 'Jaat' or 'Banjarey'). Actually one of the woman will drink so much water that she looks like pregnant woman and then they would act like she is having labour pain. You can give her money for drinking so much water but please dont give money for hospitalisation.

Its business for them.

[Angela Poynton]

Originally posted by James Carman:
I heard about a guy in San Francisco on Fisherman's Wharf that stands behind a bush or something and jumps out and scares people for money. Once you get scared, you stand by and watch him scare someone else. For the entertainment value, folks give him money. I would definitely give that guy money!

Ah memories ... I had spotted him scare someone when we were quite far away but my mother hadn't and when he lept out in front of us she nearly lept into the ocean from fright ... oddly, she didn't think that kind of behaviour deserved rewarding.

[Frank Silbermann]

As long as it's not too frequent, I usually give some change to a begger. It's not because I care about him -- it doesn't bother me a bit that he might use it for cheap wine to get drunk. I don't know whether it's right or wrong to give (I can argue it either way), it just feels more comfortable to me.

[Axel Janssen]

Originally posted by R K Singh:


Its shocking to see someone asking for food in First world country.

You can't compare with India because amount of people in need is way much bigger in your country, but here are families which are at the limit and can't survive without some non-statal wellfare organizations. And they are not taking drugs. Not enough skills for job market and they get less money from state now.
There are programs in TV and I've heard from guy who works in bank and knows incomes of families.
Yesterday I've heard from ex-collegue who was so dot-com-bubble bombed one year ago that he really had problems to get food at the end of month. But this has also to do with lots of alcohol and psychological problems in this time. He's very emotional man. Quite a good jazz drummer, also. A psychologist helped him and now he works as a teacher in a city where my main customer. I am going to meet him. Nice guy, btw. I think he wouldn't disagree when I say that he really sucked as IT-consultant/trainer at the end of his IT-time, though. But an intelligent guy, nevertheless.

[Warren Dew]

Mapraputa Is:

Surely not. I am thinking about "I won't give them money because they will spend it on drugs or alcohol and it's not good for them" argument that apparently work for people who would give money otherwise. I am not talking about people who prefer to feed children in Africa, because they are much worse off than US homeless, which is very likely, or prefer not to give for whatever other reason -- that beggars don't deserve help, for example, a perfectly valid reason.

Why is "beggars don't deserve help" a valid reason, but "beggars who will spend money on drugs or alcohol don't deserve money" an invalid reason? What if one thinks "beggars don't deserve help because they will spend money on drugs or alcohol"? I'm not trying to argue here, I'm genuinely trying to understand the logic.

For myself I feel that if I don't take this person's hand and walk him into this shiny place where he can get food, shelter, drug/alcohol rehab, counseling etc, etc, etc, which I don't, then I should at least help him to get through this one night

I think there's a difference between taking that position "for yourself", and thinking that everyone else ought to do the same thing as well. It seems to me that most of the other people on this thread are taking one of the following two positions:

"I give to beggars irrespective of what they are going to spend the money on, and everyone else should too."

"I don't give to beggars because they will just spend the money on drugs or alcohol, and no one else should either."

It's the "everyone else" and "no one else" parts that bother me; variations like "all good hearted people" and "no responsible person" don't make things better.

I guess I'd just like to see a little more tolerance for differing points of view.

[Mapraputa Is]

WD: I'm not trying to argue here, I'm genuinely trying to understand the logic.

I am far from clear on this issue, that's why I started this thread -- to listen to others' arguments. "Why is "beggars don't deserve help" a valid reason, but "beggars who will spend money on drugs or alcohol don't deserve money" an invalid reason? What if one thinks "beggars don't deserve help because they will spend money on drugs or alcohol"?" -- well, you are right, it's as a valid argument as any.

I think there's a difference between taking that position "for yourself", and thinking that everyone else ought to do the same thing as well.

Nomally I would say that yes, if I think what I do is right, then everybody else should do the same; but not in this case. It's a complicated question. All positions have some appeal, sorry if I was too aggressive in expressing mine...

[R K Singh]

Originally posted by Axel Janssen:
but here are families which are at the limit and can't survive without some non-statal wellfare organizations.

I think. I need to be more practical.

[Sonny Gill]

Originally posted by Mapraputa Is:

Nomally I would say that yes, if I think what I do is right, then everybody else should do the same;
...

Really!!! And that is because you think that other people, who they think different from you, must definitely be wrong!!

or am I misunderstanding what you are trying to say?
[ May 11, 2005: Message edited by: Sonny Gill ]

[Jeroen Wenting]

hmm, seems to me Map either thinks that everyone should think they're right OR everyone should do as she does no matter what they think.

Of course the two aren't mutually exclusive. In fact if Map is right and so is everyone else everyone else thinks the same as Map does and so does the same thing in both cases.

[Sonny Gill]

Originally posted by Jeroen Wenting:

Of course the two aren't mutually exclusive. In fact if Map is right and so is everyone else everyone else thinks the same as Map does and so does the same thing in both cases.

that, if you presuppose the existence of an absolute right

[Warren Dew]

Mapraputa Is:

Nomally I would say that yes, if I think what I do is right, then everybody else should do the same

While it's a tangent, I'm interested in clarification of this as well. You generally strike me as one of the people here who is most tolerant of differing points of view.

All positions have some appeal, sorry if I was too aggressive in expressing mine...

No need to apologize; it's an interesting discussion.