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Quality of English

 
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Originally posted by Arvind Birla:
which language of India does this map to that causes this to categorized as 'localized' English ?



My mother tongue Marathi
 
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Originally posted by Jeanne Boyarsky:
originally posted by Joanne Neal:
I'm going to visit with my friend.

Just curious: what would the correct way of saying it be in the UK?


Not that I'm a native English speaker, but having been taught BE in high school, the with is extraneous. Just "I'm going to visit my friend."
[ August 22, 2008: Message edited by: Ulf Dittmer ]
 
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Originally posted by Ulf Dittmer:
having been taught BE in high school


is BE the same as The Queen's English?
 
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Don't know, I'm not familiar with that term. I thought it is what's commonly known as "Oxford English" ... but I guess now I'm not sure about that either :-(
 
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Originally posted by Ulf Dittmer:
Not that I'm a native English speaker, but having been taught BE in high school, the with is extraneous. Just "I'm going to visit my friend."

Well, as a native English speaker I would say there are some differences between "I'm going to visit my friend" and "I'm going to visit with my friend". But it would be difficult for me to explain just what they are. I think perhaps the latter would be for a more personal type of visit, or perhaps a longer visit.

Just like I can't explain why a house burns down in English and a piece of paper burns up. A few years ago I noticed that "thin" and "narrow" are distinctly different in English, both in their standard meanings and in idioms derived from those meanings. Native English-speakers learn the words as children but usually can't explain the difference. But when I asked some Germans if they knew the difference between the two, they did, and could explain the difference. They had been taught it, whereas I hadn't.
 
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Originally posted by Paul Clapham:Just like I can't explain why a house burns down in English and a piece of paper burns up.



At least in American English, you drive on a parkway and park on a driveway. Makes no sense, but that's how it is.
 
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Originally posted by Ulf Dittmer:
Not that I'm a native English speaker, but having been taught BE in high school, the with is extraneous. Just "I'm going to visit my friend."


That's helpful.

Originally posted by Pat Farrell :
is BE the same as The Queen's English?


I would think BE would stand for British English. Which of course would be the Queen's English.

Originally posted by Ulf Dittmer:
Don't know, I'm not familiar with that term. I thought it is what's commonly known as "Oxford English" ... but I guess now I'm not sure about that either :-(


And Oxford is in Britain so I would assume it means the same thing colloquially. The Oxford English dictionary coverts British English although they have an Oxford American dictionary now too.

Originally posted by Paul Clapham :
Well, as a native English speaker I would say there are some differences between "I'm going to visit my friend" and "I'm going to visit with my friend".


You mean as a native British English (or any place other than the USA) speaker right? I'm a native English speaker too, but it's native American English. Too me, both make sense and sound fine. (which was the original point of this example.) I'm more likely to omit the word "with." I think that's because New Yorkers speak fast so I'm less likely to use a word that doesn't add meaning when speaking.

I completely agree with the explanation of "because it sounds right" even though it's less than helpful in understanding why. And sometimes "why" is because "it's an exception" or "it's a phrase."
 
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This question is related to this thread, but may be a bit OT or meaningless.

I notice a fair number of postings here on JR with a topic such as:



I assume this idiom is based on a transliteration from some language other than English, as I'd expect a native English speaker to phrase it as



because in US english at least, there is a fairly big difference between a doubt and a question. You can ask a question: how many feet are in a mile?
but you would not have a doubt about it, you would know or not know.

And in the US, you might say "I doubt that George Bush is smart enough to be President" but that is because the doubt relates to an opinion, not a fact.

So what's the basis for this "doubt about..." idiom?
 
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There was a lengthy discussion on some idioms, including the usage of "doubt" and "even I", here.
 
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Originally posted by Pat Farrell:

is BE the same as The Queen's English?

That has been true of recent decades. There's talk about changing it in the future to be based instead on the King's English.
 
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Originally posted by Frank Silbermann:
That has been true of recent decades. There's talk about changing it in the future to be based instead on the King's English.



King William or Harry, please not Charles
 
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Originally posted by Jeanne Boyarsky:
You mean as a native British English (or any place other than the USA) speaker right? I'm a native English speaker too, but it's native American English.

I'm a British English speaker by birth but I've been a North American English speaker for the last 50 years. Occasionally I have met people who can tell that by listening to me, but usually I sound North American. But some things are learned earlier than others: for example I still can't use the word "gotten", which exists in NAE but not in BE.
 
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Originally posted by Paul Clapham:
I'm a British English speaker by birth but I've been a North American English speaker for the last 50 years. Occasionally I have met people who can tell that by listening to me, but usually I sound North American



Does it come back? If you spend a summer in England, do you revert? At least enough that when you get back on this side of the pond, you sound English again?

Long ago, I'd swap every three months between the Washington DC area and far down in South West VA. In Washington, the language is a common mismash, all the folks coming in, newscasters, etc. No regional accent. In SW VA, its very southern, Appalachian accent. It would take me about three months to switch back, so I always sounded like I was from the other place.
 
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[Paul Clapham]: Well, as a native English speaker I would say there are some differences between "I'm going to visit my friend" and "I'm going to visit with my friend".

[Jeanne]: You mean as a native British English (or any place other than the USA) speaker right? I'm a native English speaker too, but it's native American English. Too me, both make sense and sound fine. (which was the original point of this example.) I'm more likely to omit the word "with." I think that's because New Yorkers speak fast so I'm less likely to use a word that doesn't add meaning when speaking.


Mmmm, I'm a native American English speaker too. (Not to be confused with a Native American English speaker, which I am not.) I agree with Paul C. Both make sense and sound fine, but there are still slight differences. To visit someone has a slightly lower standard - maybe you just stopped briefly at your friend's place, e.g. to pick up something you'd left there accidentally. Or maybe you stayed and chatted a long time. But to visit with someone is more specific - it implies (slightly) that the visit was not just incidental to some other objective. Your purpose was to spend some time with your friend, talking to them and catching up on recent developments in each others' lives. Perhaps New Yawkas do not usually have time for this sort of thing. Of course in many cases people in the US will still say "visit" rather than "visit with", even if they're spending time and catching up. This is a case where we have an option to add a word to be a little more descriptive - but in many cases the value of the extra word may be minimal.

Looking again at this:

[Jeanne]: You mean as a native British English (or any place other than the USA) speaker right?

Let's not be too cavalier about grouping all other countries (I assume you meant English-speaking countries) together in this respect. Canadian English, for example, has plenty of influence from both UK and US English, as well as a few distinctives of its own, eh?. The Aussies and Kiwis are much closer to British English than to American, but they also have their own divergences. And there are other varieties out there. Not least of which are variations within each region named so far, especially the UK. Where the very notion of "British English" is an oxymoron to many.

[Pat]: is BE the same as The Queen's English?

[Frank]: That has been true of recent decades. There's talk about changing it in the future to be based instead on the King's English.




Well aside from the King vs. Queen thing, it seems that British English is a more general term, referring to the English language as spoken throughout the UK - in various forms, with many commonalities, but also many differences. In contrast, the Queen's English or the King's English generally refers more specifically to Received Pronunciation, or RP. Also often known as BBC English by people who haven't actually listened to many BBC programs (excuse me, programmes) recently. Anyway, the notion of a single standard of English usage and pronunciation seems to be, ummm, poppycock. Or bollocks. Or bullshit. Your choice.
[ August 26, 2008: Message edited by: Mike Simmons ]
 
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Just my $0.02.

When the writing is atrocious; one can potentially conclude that:
  • The author is lazy.
  • The author is posting under a pseudonym, so he/she doesn't give a sh*t.
  • The author is in a hurry (possibly in a death march project)
  • The author does not know what dictionaries or spellcheckers are for.
  • As a corollary, he/she is probably not a good coder. If you care about your code, you will care about your mastery of natural languages: spoken and written.

  •  
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    Originally posted by Mike Simmons:
    Also often known as BBC English by people who haven't actually listened to many BBC programs (excuse me, programmes) recently. Anyway, the notion of a single standard of English usage and pronunciation seems to be, ummm, poppycock. Or bollocks.


    I thought that folks in Brittan had a lot of usage and pronouciations that vary both by location and by class. Not that my American ears can pick it up. But I know a major plot device in The Inspector Lynley series was the differences between Earl of Asherton and commoner Barbara.

    And I think that years ago there was a scandalous Tasters Choice serious of commercials where the guy and the woman were of massively different social classes, which any Brit could tell by the accents and which no Americans had a clue about.
     
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    Originally posted by Pat Farrell:
    Does it come back? If you spend a summer in England, do you revert? At least enough that when you get back on this side of the pond, you sound English again?

    No. At least, I spent three weeks in Britain this May and it didn't have any effect.
     
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    Originally posted by Pat Farrell:
    I thought that folks in Brittan had a lot of usage and pronouciations that vary both by location and by class. Not that my American ears can pick it up.

    Yes, there are. I spent three weeks in the north of England and Scotland this spring and the number of regional accents was quite amazing. There was one old Cumbrian who we could hardly understand, but mostly there wasn't a problem.
     
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    Originally posted by Paul Clapham:
    No. At least, I spent three weeks in Britain this May and it didn't have any effect.



    Three weeks is way to short. You were probably still hearing it as "funny accent". I found it took much longer than that, you have to stop hearing it as funny, then ignore it, and then you start talking like everyone else.

    Now, years later, I can only fake the SW Va accent, and anyone local would know its fake. Back then, I lived it.
     
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    Originally posted by Mike Simmons:
    Perhaps New Yawkas do not usually have time for this sort of thing.


    And yet somehow there is time to post in MD


    Let's not be too cavalier about grouping all other countries (I assume you meant English-speaking countries) together in this respect. Canadian English, for example, has plenty of influence from both UK and US English, as well as a few distinctives of its own, eh?.


    Fair enough.
     
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    To me, 'I am going to visit my friend' is 'I am going to meet my friend' and 'I am going to visit with my friend' is 'I am going somewhere (depending on the context) with my friend'.
    [ August 28, 2008: Message edited by: ankur rathi ]
     
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    Originally posted by ankur rathi:
    To me, 'I am going to visit my friend' is 'I am going to meet my friend' and 'I am going to visit with my friend' is 'I am going somewhere (depending on the context) with my friend'.

    [ August 28, 2008: Message edited by: ankur rathi ]



    +1
    (This is true atleast in india)
    [ August 29, 2008: Message edited by: Vishal Pandya ]
     
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    "What he told"
     
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    Hi,

    All said let me add "I agree with Jeanne's view". English being a foreign language to many, one has to agree that mastering it cannot be seen as so easy. I'd say that I do not always mind a is in place of was or said to in place of told as long I am able to understand what the person is trying to convey[period].

    Of course it would be childlike to insist that language does not matter at all. I have read many posts out here on the Ranch which have the look and feel of a cryptic cipher. I am sure many more people out here would have been able to help the posters had they used better English.

    Cheers,
    Raj.
     
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    [Ankur]: To me, 'I am going to visit my friend' is 'I am going to meet my friend' and 'I am going to visit with my friend' is 'I am going somewhere (depending on the context) with my friend'.

    I would agree if the place being visited were named explicitly. For example "I am going to visit the museum with my friend" would mean that - and I believe that would also be perfectly acceptable in Britain. But Joanne was talking about usage of "visit with" without a named destination to visit. This usage is not unusual in the US, and it does have a slightly different meaning than "visit", but is considered incorrect in the UK.
    [ August 29, 2008: Message edited by: Mike Simmons ]
     
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    Everyone is different in this world.
    There are all kinds of people everywhere.
     
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    Originally posted by Zhou Feng:
    Everyone is different in this world.
    There are all kinds of people everywhere.



    You are right. Everyone is born different. So we needed something common between us and we invented a language. Let us be different. But, let us have a 'common language'. As far as Indian english is concerned, our fathers didn't practice proper english, so here we go with improper english. IMO, if we try correcting our english it will definitely help us and our children. Additionally, someone wrote 'bad' english and 'good' english. 'Bad' and 'good' doesn't suit well for languages. 'Proper' and 'improper' suit well.

    Cheers!
     
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    Originally posted by Zhou Feng:
    Everyone is different in this world.
    There are all kinds of people everywhere.



    I totally disagree. Everyone, everywhere, is exactly the same.
     
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    Yes, we are all individuals.
     
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    Originally posted by Ulf Dittmer:
    Yes, we are all individuals.



    I'm not
     
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    Why be yourself, when you can be someone else?
     
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    An interesting thread.

    In India, one moves into English medium of instruction at least in the 11th grade (that is, if one has been studying in vernacular medium until then, otherwise it's English all along). We spend about 7 hours a day at school, filled with various curricula. Except for one(or two) language subject, all others are taught in English. I would expect most of the visitors to this forum to be at least university graduates or even post graduates. When I look at this topic with this background info, I can understand what Maneesh is trying to say.
     
    Pradeep bhatt
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    Why "half an hour" is correct ?
     
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    Why "half an hour" is correct ?


    Do you mean the extra "n"? That's because the "h" in "hour" is silent, so the next letter after "a" is for all practical purposes a vowel. Having the "n" there makes it easier to pronounce.
     
    Pradeep bhatt
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    Originally posted by Ulf Dittmer:

    Do you mean the extra "n"? That's because the "h" in "hour" is silent, so the next letter after "a" is for all practical purposes a vowel. Having the "n" there makes it easier to pronounce.



    Thanks
     
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    Friday Fun:

    Madam:
    I am an olden young uncle living only with myself in [censored: name of place]. Having seen your advertisement for marriage purposes, I decided to press myself on you and hope you will take me nicely.

    I am a soiled son from inside [censored: name of state]. I am nice and big, six foot tall and six inches long. My body is filled with hardness, as because I am working hardly. I am playing hardly also. Especially I like circket and I am a good batter and I am fast baller. Whenever I come running in for balling, other batters start running. Everybody is scared of my rapid balls that bounce a lot.

    I am very nice man. I am always laughing loudly at everyone. I am a jolly gay . Especially ladies, they are saying I am nice and soft. I am always giving respect to the ladies. I am always allowing ladies to get on top.That is how nice I am.

    I am not having any bad habits. I am not drinking and I am not sucking tobacco or anything else. Every morning I am going to the gym and I am pumping like anything. Daily I am pumping and pumping. If you want you can come and see how much I am pumping the dumb belles in the gym.

    I am having a lot of money in my pants and my pants is always open for you. I am such a nice man, but still I am living with myself only. What to do? So I am taking things into my own hands everyday. That is why I am pressing myself on you, so that you will come in my house and take my things into your hand. If you are marrying me madam, I am telling you, I will be loving you very hard every day. In fact, I will stop pumping dumb belles in the gym.

    If you are not marrying me madam and not coming to me, I will press you and press you until you come. So I am placing my head between your nicely smelling feet and looking up with lots of hope. I am waiting very badly for your reply and I am stiff with anticipation.

    Expecting soon, Yours and only yours [censored: name of person]
     
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    Maneesh Godbole,
    I was read what you write, many people talk like what you write. Even, odd times i am also talked like what you write. many times people says me to tell me in other language because they don't understand my English, means they agree that their English is bad.
    Even in new city like Delhi, try to speech English with people for trying to get right path to my hotel, many people tell me path with their hands & signs.
    One time, in interview one sir ask me "how is your health & water?". he want to ask me question which proper in Indian language but not fit in English.
    My school sir told us always, "All boys should stood up, & girls should went to the ground".
    I wrote essay on Cow as follows,

    "The cow is a successful animal. Also he is quadrupud, and because he is
    female, he give milk,but will do so when he is got child.He is same like
    God,sacred to Hindus and useful to man.But he has got four legs together.
    Two are forward and two are afterwards.
    His whole body can be utilised for use. More so the milk. What can it do?
    Various ghee, butter,cream, curd, why and the condensed milk and so forth.
    Also he is useful to cobbler, watermans and mankind generally.
    His motion is slow only because he is of asitudinious species. Also his
    other motion is much useful to trees, plants as well as making flat cakes in
    hand and drying in the sun. Cow is the only animal that extricates his feeding
    after eating. Then afterwards she chew with his teeth whom are situated in
    the inside of the mouth. He is incessantly in the meadows in the grass.
    "His only attacking and defending organ is the horn, specially so when he is
    got child. This is done by knowing his head whereby he causes the weapons
    to be paralleled to the ground of the earth and instantly proceed with great
    velocity forwards.He has got tails also, but not like similar animals. It has hairs on the
    other end of the other side. This is done to frighten away the flies which
    alight on his cohoa body whereupon he gives hit with it.
    The palms of his feet are soft unto the touch. So the grasses head is not
    crushed. At night time have poses by looking down on the ground and he shouts
    his eyes like his relatives, the horse does not do so. This is the cow."


     
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    What ever Anglish, I do speark my own Engliieesh
     
    Greenhorn
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    It doesnt Matter...if the idea is conveyed.

    Look for example in Japanese, The listener has to extract the Meaning.
    Who cares?? If you get the things correct.
     
    Vikas Kapoor
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    Vivekkk Singh wrote:It doesnt Matter...if the idea is conveyed.


    It's fine if you are not good at some language. But you should always try to improve it if you are going to deal in that environment. you can't be so careless. and It does matter.
     
    Don't get me started about those stupid light bulbs.
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