Who is spoiling H1- Visa image?

[aditee sharma]

Mark Herschberg wrote: If there is a pending lawsuit against a company, that can certainly be mentioned (sourced should be cited of course).

I am not going to name any one just on the basis of your advice.
This is simply because I am not aware of the legal implications it may have.
As stated, if people are skeptical of a statement, then they may as well take some initiative and find out by themselves.Its not difficult at all.

[Paul Yule]

aditee sharma wrote:
if people are skeptical of a statement, then they may as well take some initiative and find out by themselves.

No

[aditee sharma]

Paul Yule wrote:No

Yes

[Paul Yule]

A reliable friend of a friend's sister once told me about her nephew who knew a guy who's father talked to a honest lawyer almost every day. This lawyer was in charge of almost everything that goes on in corporate America and he said H1B's are the only reason that our economy hasn't collapsed yet. Besides, It's a well known fact that class action lawsuits don't actually exist.

If you don't believe me look it up.

[aditee sharma]

Paul Yule wrote:Besides, It's a well known fact that class action lawsuits don't actually exist.

If you don't believe me look it up.

I just did and found that you are wrong.Its your turn to verify the fact now.Have faith in your googling capabilities.

[Paul Clapham]

It seems to me that this thread isn't going anywhere fast. Was there ever a point to be made? If there was, this petty bickering isn't helping to make it. I'm not going to lock the thread... yet... but it would be Nice™ if the bickering went away.

[aditee sharma]

Paul Clapham wrote:It seems to me that this thread isn't going anywhere fast. Was there ever a point to be made? If there was, this petty bickering isn't helping to make it. I'm not going to lock the thread... yet... but it would be Nice™ if the bickering went away.

I'd request you to go ahead and do that. Whatever meaningful could be said has been said long back.

[Paul Yule]

aditee sharma wrote:
I just did and found that you are wrong.Its your turn to verify the fact now.Have faith in your googling capabilities.

Haha.

I don't need faith, or google. I use the force.

[Paul Yule]

Paul Clapham wrote:It seems to me that this thread isn't going anywhere fast. Was there ever a point to be made? If there was, this petty bickering isn't helping to make it. I'm not going to lock the thread... yet... but it would be Nice™ if the bickering went away.

hmm, ok.

I don't necessarily disagree© with your points Aditee, but I humbly disagree© with the way you present your argument, sir.

[Aaron Raja]

I used to work with lot of H1-B visa holders whose middle company used to pay them only when they are in project. No Over time pay. No health care benefit. Once they start their Green card then they used to abuse more! It is not good.

Majority of H1-B holders are very hard working there is no dout on it. But interesting thing is that most of the middle company were started by those who were in H1-B visa on time in their life. I was robbed why not rob other! Any way It is sad.
Thanks
AR

[aditee sharma]

Paul Yule wrote:
I don't necessarily disagree© with your points Aditee, but I humbly disagree© with the way you present your argument, sir.

Couldn't resist this one:
Are you sure you are asking a H1B to do your job, i.e google for you ?

Have a nice weekend.

[Paul Yule]

haha, indeed.

You have a bad weekend. Or a good one. The choice is yours.

[Ram kovis]

Hmm... please continue the discussion..

wait.. Lemme grab popcorn and pop...

[Mark Herschberg]

We're not closing the discussion because it has value, but let's keep the comments focused on topic.

--Mark

[William Thomas]

Aditee was 100% correct about tata consultancy lawsuit regarding filing tax returns for its U.S. employees, and then forcing the employees to sign over their returns to the company.

Here is a link:
tata lawsuit

[William Thomas]

If there are some fake cases, then there are equal no. of cases like some US people not even having a college degree and still being preferred for employment over Engineering Graduates from the foreign countries. There has to be a limit on how much one can stifle competition with a "Sons-of-the soil first" approach that masquerades as "All H1Bs are fake" sloganeering.
I understand that is difficult to explain to people constrained by a bad economy and fear of losing their jobs.
I take it in my stride and will always be thankful to America, even if I am made to pack my bags and go back.
Not out of being "charitable", but because America truly deserves the admiration.

Respectfully, here is where your argument collapses. First, its not a "case" as you refer to it, if a U.S. company prefers a less educated american citizen over a more educated foreign citizen. If i have a college degree, and want a job in a foreign country, should that country be required to admit me in to do a job there? absolutely not. your argument though implied that this is some form of injustice. Its not.

What i believe, is that a company should be able to outsource jobs to foreign lands if it thinks they can be done better there. No problem with that.

My company alone has brought in hundreds (possibly thousands) of H1B Visa employees, and nearly every one of them is here to not help the company with technical expertise, but to learn enough about a process so that it can be outsourced more easily. I dont see how you could claim to know the percentage of companies performing this, if you can sustain that with a fact, please show me a link.

I have nothing against you, in fact i commend you for wanting to better your life, and your kind words towards my nation. I am excited to see India and China moving their nations from developing nations to modern ones. I think cooperation between all nations is essential towards making the entire world a better and more peaceful place. I just believe the H1B visa program is being manipulated and is causing some serious problems with the U.S. economy. 300,000 IT jobs lost in a five week period here is going to have a serious impact on our nations growth.

[aditee sharma]

William Thomas wrote:
Respectfully, here is where your argument collapses. First, its not a "case" as you refer to it, if a U.S. company prefers a less educated american citizen over a more educated foreign citizen. If i have a college degree, and want a job in a foreign country, should that country be required to admit me in to do a job there? absolutely not. your argument though implied that this is some form of injustice. Its not.

William Sir, there is an old saying that be careful what you wish for.Please read on before you jump to a conclusion about my intent behind saying that.
In one of my earliest posts it has been mentioned that the dynamics of H1B have a lot to do with economics and trade, rather than just jobs. India and USA are both members of WTO and it was US that encouraged India to enter WTO in 1995 so that US companies can do business in India and sell their products and India may gain as well.
In case some people do not know, many local Indian companies either went out of business or suffered losses because of that decision of the Indian Government.These companies found themselves overwhelmed by the sheer commercial might of the US and other foreign companies.
Just like the way anguish is expressed by some in this forum,there were protests in India at that time.
I am sure that was not a problem with anyone in this forum because India was no competition at that time.
It was only after Y2K and Dot com boom amongst other events that the equation changed and now the working class people in US see it as a problem.
Well, the US wished for India to join the WTO and got just that.
India is a still a big market for US companies albeit in sectors other than IT services(Defence, agriculture).
It is in this context that I talked about injustice.There should be a balance between Protectionism and Trade.

William Thomas wrote:
What i believe, is that a company should be able to outsource jobs to foreign lands if it thinks they can be done better there. No problem with that.

Its exactly this kind of fairness that makes me a fan of the US.
However, again one must be careful of what he/she wishes for. If offshoring rather than just on-site outsourcing happens, the US IT industry may meet the fate of the Auto and Steel Industries.Just like Ohio/Michigan companies shut down and production went to China, you may find all business going to India. That I believe will be a even worse situation for jobs. In principal, however, I agree with you.

William Thomas wrote:
My company alone has brought in hundreds (possibly thousands) of H1B Visa employees, and nearly every one of them is here to not help the company with technical expertise, but to learn enough about a process so that it can be outsourced more easily. I dont see how you could claim to know the percentage of companies performing this, if you can sustain that with a fact, please show me a link.

I doubt if you can say with conviction that none of the H1Bs they bring over have the qualification/skills required for the job.Its not clear from your post.Learning about the process is one thing, but being under qualified for the job is another. It appears the people you are mentioning are from one of the big IT majors mentioned earlier, because they are ones who operate in such big numbers.
They have a thorough selection procedure and usually take only engineering graduates (It is another matter that they steal from their employees later on :-)). Still, I'll take your word for that, no need for providing a link.

I am claiming on the basis of experience in the 5 years and 3 companies that I have worked for in the US where I saw varying capabilities from people of almost equally varying nationalities/visa status.
I have no link to show the statistics from these companies.However, I can say with conviction that talent and expertise are not the dominion of a particular group of people and neither are these virtues out of reach of any particular group.

William Thomas wrote:
I have nothing against you, in fact i commend you for wanting to better your life, and your kind words towards my nation. I am excited to see India and China moving their nations from developing nations to modern ones. I think cooperation between all nations is essential towards making the entire world a better and more peaceful place.

Thank you Sir, people like you make this country so great and attract talent from across the world.
I have to other countries also for work, so its not without proper research when I say that.

William Thomas wrote:
I just believe the H1B visa program is being manipulated and is causing some serious problems with the U.S. economy. 300,000 IT jobs lost in a five week period here is going to have a serious impact on our nations growth.

No doubt about it.My stand is only against "absolute false statements" like all H1Bs are fake.

[aditee sharma]

Gabriel Claramunt wrote:Yes, we seem to be arguing the same point...

No, we are not.You are contradicting your own statements.I'll explain mine.
There are two kinds of H1B staffing firms : The US based and the ones based in India (The IT majors mentioned by you) and other countries.
The ones based in India are the worst kind of middlemen because of the tax fraud mentioned amongst other reasons like paying the lowest, not filing for Green Cards at all etc.

My contention is that the 1st category, the US based H1B firms, irrespective of whether the owners are of Indian origin or otherwise also exploit their employees albeit to a lesser extent than the latter category.

You and Luke were saying that its not the case and then I gave my boss's example.
You also said that H1B people from India are fraudulent and that the concept of middlemen is made up.
That has also been explained and contested in my posts.

[Gabriel Claramunt]

aditee sharma wrote:

Gabriel Claramunt wrote:Yes, we seem to be arguing the same point...

No, we are not.You are contradicting your own statements.I'll explain mine.
There are two kinds of H1B staffing firms : The US based and the ones based in India (The IT majors mentioned by you) and other countries.
The ones based in India are the worst kind of middlemen because of the tax fraud mentioned amongst other reasons like paying the lowest, not filing for Green Cards at all etc.

And I (mostly) agree on that

aditee sharma wrote:
My contention is that the 1st category, the US based H1B firms, irrespective of whether the owners are of Indian origin or otherwise also exploit their employees albeit to a lesser extent than the latter category.

There's another category of firms, the so called (by Indians) "shadi desi consulting firms" (google for that), they're US based, they charge for filling the H1B, use fake resumes and don't pay "on bench", leaving people out of status and banned from entering the US. Those are the ones being crack down by USCIS. You'll find plenty of examples of the problems caused by them in online immigration forums, and I think is a very good move from USCIS.

aditee sharma wrote:
You and Luke were saying that its not the case and then I gave my boss's example.
You also said that H1B people from India are fraudulent and that the concept of middlemen is made up.
That has also been explained and contested in my posts.

I NEVER said "H1B people from India are fraudulent", from where do you get that? In which message? (English is not my first language so maybe I'm missing something!). Neither I said that the concept of middlemen is made up... is very real.
I don't know.. I never talked about absolutes... anyway, it seems a very emotional issue for you, so it doesn't seems productive to keep arguing the same issues...

[aditee sharma]

Gabriel Claramunt wrote:
There's another category of firms, the so called (by Indians) "shadi desi consulting firms" (google for that), they're US based, they charge for filling the H1B, use fake resumes and don't pay "on bench", leaving people out of status and banned from entering the US. Those are the ones being crack down by USCIS. You'll find plenty of examples of the problems caused by them in online immigration forums, and I think is a very good move from USCIS.

Agreed.

Gabriel Claramunt wrote:
I NEVER said "H1B people from India are fraudulent", from where do you get that? In which message? (English is not my first language so maybe I'm missing something!).

As stated by you, the majority of Indian H1Bs go through middlemen and all of these middlemen put fake qualifications on resumes, then will it be wrong to for someone to infer that Indian H1Bs are fraud ?
I am sorry if it came hard on you, but that is the insinuation of your statements.
There are some cases of fraud, no doubt about it but to say or imply that all are fake is injustice.

Gabriel Claramunt wrote:
Neither I said that the concept of middlemen is made up... is very real.

You actually said this:

Gabriel Claramunt wrote:
And thinking that the middleman had advantage over the established companies is a self fulfilling prophecy the middleman have candidates because people go through them, if people wait for a genuine offer, the quota wont be filled by middleman only

Agreed that you never denied the existence of middlemen.However, you did underestimate the undue advantage they have.

Gabriel Claramunt wrote:
anyway, it seems a very emotional issue for you, so it doesn't seems productive to keep arguing the same issues...

Lets not comment about each other. I never wanted to argue in the 1st place. It was only upon the bartender's and other people's encouragement that I started. Barring a few aberrations, this has been a good discussion.

[Gabriel Claramunt]

aditee sharma wrote:
Agreed that you never denied the existence of middlemen.However, you did underestimate the undue advantage they have.

That's more useful... why do you think they have an undue advantage?

[aditee sharma]

Gabriel Claramunt wrote:
That's more useful... why do you think they have an undue advantage?

This has been discussed already.The US companies (actual clients receiving the service) do not and can not wait for the long time it takes for a fresh applicant to start working.The process is slow.Hence they rarely file fresh H1s.
That leaves pretty much the middlemen only.
Unless you have some kind of proof or statistics that US companies do file more than a choicest few fresh H1s (not blogging sites please, genuine resources only), your argument that "its just people being desperate that middlemen have advantage" does not stand.

[Gabriel Claramunt]

For 2006, InformationWeek published a list (I've already posted this one)
For 2007, BusinessWeek published a list
(Feel free to doubt the sources, as far as I know, they're published/recognized magazines, if you have better statistics, I honestly would like to see them)
As you see you have Microsoft, IBM, Oracle, Cisco, Intel, Accenture, Ernst&Young, etc. as big users of H1Bs. Universities also are major H1Bs as they're exempt from the quota. (I'm pretty sure we have a different definition of "middlemen")
The general feeling is that with the USCIS crackdown and the recession, this year the H1B won't be a lottery, making even easier for companies to get H1B visas for the right candidates.

[aditee sharma]

None of the URLs supplied by you say that how many of the petitions were filed for people sitting in India and other such nations.
Universities usually file H1Bs for their students in the US or may be other students within US, not for people sitting in India (Yes, yes they are not obliged to, but this does not change the fact that people sitting in India and other countries have to depend on middlemen).
The only "exceptions" are IBM, Microsoft and Oracle. Even their petitions are scattered around multiple nations.
Again, they are not obliged to do it for a particular country, but does that change the fact that middlemen have the advantage ?
All the topmost companies listed in both the URLs supplied by you are body shoppers aka middlemen.

[Henry Wong]

Summary: From what I could gather, the jist of the last dozen or so posts is.... "bodyshoppers" have no incentive to increase the quality of the H1-B, as they are only rewarded by quanity. So, they tend to fake the quality, and hence, spoiling the H1.

The counter argument is ... "body shoppers" don't make the bulk of the H1 applicants (or the argument lack proof that it does).


Interesting debate... I just thought that I do a quick summary post, to get those of us not involved in the debate, back on the same page.... .... And yes, a little less "bickering" would be nice.

Henry

[Mark Herschberg]

Thanks Henry! I lost track of the content a while ago. :-)

--Mark

[aditee sharma]

Henry Wong wrote:Summary: From what I could gather, the jist of the last dozen or so posts is.... "bodyshoppers" have no incentive to increase the quality of the H1-B, as they are only rewarded by quanity. So, they tend to fake the quality, and hence, spoiling the H1.

Addition to the 1st argument:
... "bodyshoppers" have no incentive to increase the quality of the H1-B, as they are only rewarded by quanity. So, they tend to fake the quality, and hence, spoiling the H1.
Moreover, because Bodyshoppers are almost the only choice left (barring a few exceptions) for even genuine H1B aspirants, they are clubbed with the rest and labeled "fake". A bad economy and the locals' fear of losing jobs does not exactly help to correct this assessment.

[Vinay Singh]

So much has been said about H1, one does not look into how this thing really helps out the US economy. There are so many startups in silicon valley , some prominent VS's who have come to this country as a student and then shifted to H1 or directly came on H1.

Now when these companies offer jobs, everything is fine. But when other companies offer jobs to H1b, hell breaks loose.

IAnd why are we talking about subpar salaries here ? I am working in US making close to 90K. And I know so many people around , all of them are above 70k.

And do not forget most of the guys are on contract.. So of the skills do not match , they will get fired.

True Indian companies hire tons of people on h1b and send to US. They take the knowledge and go back to India to work on these projects.
Why not ? Who the hell wants to pay $70 per hour for the maintainence project !!!

One of the reasons IT industry is so competitive in tis country because it has managed to attract talent from all over world and foster innovation.

Had this been allowed in medical system , health care industry or for doctors, the medical costs would not have skyrocketed.

And if some one has talent he/she will get picked up.

It is a land of opportunity. Look for the opportunity .

[Mark Herschberg]

Vinay Singh wrote:
One of the reasons IT industry is so competitive in tis country because it has managed to attract talent from all over world and foster innovation.

Had this been allowed in medical system , health care industry or for doctors, the medical costs would not have skyrocketed.

The second part of the above is completely wrong, there is no evidence to support this theory. There is plenty of evidence that health care costs come from pharma R&D, regulations, legal costs, insurance structures and demographics.

Software, on the other hand, has the advantage of building upon the work of others, allowing a scalability generally found in other infrastructure fields.

--Mark

[Vinay Singh]

Mark Herschberg wrote:

The second part of the above is completely wrong, there is no evidence to support this theory. There is plenty of evidence that health care costs come from pharma R&D, regulations, legal costs, insurance structures and demographics.

Software, on the other hand, has the advantage of building upon the work of others, allowing a scalability generally found in other infrastructure fields.

--Mark

We could have another discussion on that but I do not agree with that. The very similar medicines(same compound) by same companies (not Indian companies generics) cost a fraction in other countries.

There is no reason why a physical examination of a kid done by a nurse should cost insurer $250.
Neither does a visit to doctor for cold and cough then medications should cost above $300.

I may not bear all the costs but insurance company has to bear.

And you also know this country is collapsing under the healthcare costs.

Open up the gates , give the choice in hand of consumers.

[Glen Cai]

Vinay Singh wrote:

There is no reason why a physical examination of a kid done by a nurse should cost insurer $250.
Neither does a visit to doctor for cold and cough then medications should cost above $300.

The cost of training a MD in US is at least 10 times of India's, if it is not higher. That is why.
Should we also open the legal field for H1Bs so you can find cheap lawyers? And even
change the constitution to allow H1B to run for the President with a much lower salary and living in a much smaller
house and let one billion+ Indian to vote?

It was a surprise to me to see that the salary of Citi's CEO is so much lower comparing to others in the same catagory,
even Citi CFO. It does not make sense.

http://money.cnn.com/news/specials/storysupplement/ceopay/index.html?ref=patrick.net

[Mark Herschberg]

Vinay,

You assumptions are wrong and your conclusions have no evidence. If you'd like to have this discussion, start one in meaningless Drivel and we can discuss it there, so as not to hijack this topic.

(We could potentially link that discussion back here as we consider the different cost structures across industries.)

--Mark

[Vinay Singh]

One should be paid for he or she is worth. US president is the president of most powerful country.
So he rides on Airforce 1 and lives in big house.

Citi CEO and all other financials CEO's screwed up the wall street. And you expect them to be paid well !!!
Come on man...
And why the hell he should be paid more than president.
If you take money from government, you cannot be paid higher than president.
Kudos to Obama for kicking wall street in the balls.

And if anyone is so worried about lawyers ..then why do not they pay for GM or Ford for the crap they build.

[Mark Herschberg]

Vinay,

I'd be happy to explain the economics behind what's confusing you, but again, that's a different discussion (although this one would belong in job discussion as it pertains to how compensation is determined).

--Mark

[William Thomas]

The argument that h1B visas bring costs down for consumers is a false one.

Economics 101 states that supply and demand are what determine price. And that can be misleading... Do you know what really determines price?

How much people are willing to pay.

It really is that simple. It always has been.

Ok back to the subject (somewhat):

I believe that in most modern companies, the most important area of the corporation is IT. This is a world becoming centered around technology, and even the most simple products are capable of high technology innovations to help a company win the day. Customers demand the best and if a company wisely uses H1B visas to supplament its technology expertise, its acting wisely.

But if a company is trying to lower IT costs by outsourcing to anywhere (including other companies in the U.S.), and in so doing winds up reducing its IT knowledge base, its view is short term, not long term. To me this is a mistake. Even the so called "maintenance". I come from the school that if you built it, your the best person to maintain it. I can solve a problem that arises in one of my applications in a fraction of the time it takes anyone else and so can most programmers. These are usually important problems, and the resolution of them is far too important than to have it in the hands of someone who doesnt really even know the software language that the app was written in, let alone the app logic itself.

I can understand why H1B visa applicants might not appreciate this view, but its the one i hold. IT Rules fellas, its a great industry to be in we make the largest impact on the companies we work for imho...

[aditee sharma]

William Thomas wrote:
Economics 101 states that supply and demand are what determine price. And that can be misleading... Do you know what really determines price?
How much people are willing to pay.

How I wish the corporates thought like you do! Unfortunately, as much as technical people like you and me would like them to, they don't think like that.
Businessmen think only about profit. They should.
Unless people find something technically innovative, they wouldn't like to pay more for the regular stuff.
How much technically innovative would you want a Data Entry Application to be?
If low prices did not mean a boost in sales, Walmart and Mc Donald wouldn't be profitable businesses.
As we all know, they are.

William Thomas wrote:
I come from the school that if you built it, your the best person to maintain it. I can solve a problem that arises in one of my applications in a fraction of the time it takes anyone else and so can most programmers. These are usually important problems, and the resolution of them is far too important than to have it in the hands of someone who doesnt really even know the software language that the app was written in, let alone the app logic itself.

I can understand why H1B visa applicants might not appreciate this view, but its the one i hold. IT Rules fellas, its a great industry to be in we make the largest impact on the companies we work for imho...

I am H1B and I share your view.Except that I am at the receiving end here.
You are speaking from the one experience that you are having right now. I'll tell you mine. I work at a place where my IT Director, a US citizen, is afraid to put image files in the web server and instead keeps them in the app server because "that's the way they have been doing development and he doesn't want to risk anything by trying something new". Another one:Not many (citizens and admittedly some other H1Bs included)in this project know anything about SDLC and other software processes .
In my previous assignment, I was replaced by a company employee who had a COBOL background and had never worked in Java before.
The company wanted to readjust the internal workforce from a division that was not doing well.
Now, you and some others in this forum may not think that this is injustice because I am a foreigner, but your current point of argument that H1B is only for lowering the price does not stand. As much as it is abused, H1B is needed as well.

[Glen Cai]

I work at a place where my IT Director, a US citizen, is afraid to put image files in the web server and instead keeps them in the app server because "that's the way they have been doing development and he doesn't want to risk anything by trying something new". Another one:Not many (citizens and admittedly some other H1Bs included)in this project know anything about SDLC and other software processes .
In my previous assignment, I was replaced by a company employee who had a COBOL background and had never worked in Java before.
The company wanted to readjust the internal workforce from a division that was not doing well.
Now, you and some others in this forum may not think that this is injustice because I am a foreigner, but your current point of argument that H1B is only for lowering the price does not stand. As much as it is abused, H1B is needed as well.

There are many reasons not putting a image file in web server, security is one of them. Putting image file in a web server or knowing SDLC does not make you smart. You may want to say I'm an IITer, LOL. Only thing makes you are different from your US citizen co-workers is that you are cheap.
It's why your are here.

[aditee sharma]

Glen Cai wrote:You may want to say I'm an IITer, LOL. Only thing makes you are different from your US citizen co-workers is that you are cheap.
It's why your are here.

You sure know a lot about me...perhaps more than you know about yourself.
I wasted money on the CPA, perhaps you could have filed my tax return also since you know so much about my salary.
If only you knew more abut software (your job), you wouldn't feel threatened by H1B.
I want to see how the moderators handle this.This is turning into another hate blog.

[Mark Herschberg]

This would be a good time for everyone to remember the Be Nice rule.

--Mark

[Glen Cai]

aditee sharma wrote:...This is turning into another hate blog.

Please, no one hates you. Let's be honest to each other. You are here is due to the economic reason and intelligence (IQ).
Suggesting US citizens are dump is not very nice for guest workers, at least they are your host.

Yes, we must work very hard to learn SDLC and how to put a file in web server.
The main point here is that US citizens must lower the salary expectations to compete.