This week's book giveaway is in the General Computing forum.
We're giving away four copies of Emmy in the Key of Code and have Aimee Lucido on-line!
See this thread for details.
Win a copy of Emmy in the Key of Code this week in the General Computing forum!
  • Post Reply Bookmark Topic Watch Topic
  • New Topic
programming forums Java Mobile Certification Databases Caching Books Engineering Micro Controllers OS Languages Paradigms IDEs Build Tools Frameworks Application Servers Open Source This Site Careers Other all forums
this forum made possible by our volunteer staff, including ...
Marshals:
  • Campbell Ritchie
  • Liutauras Vilda
  • Junilu Lacar
  • Jeanne Boyarsky
  • Bear Bibeault
Sheriffs:
  • Knute Snortum
  • Devaka Cooray
  • Tim Cooke
Saloon Keepers:
  • Tim Moores
  • Stephan van Hulst
  • Tim Holloway
  • Ron McLeod
  • Carey Brown
Bartenders:
  • Paweł Baczyński
  • Piet Souris
  • Vijitha Kumara

Astrology

 
lowercase baba
Posts: 12772
51
Chrome Java Linux
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
and to clarify... i am not looking for PROOF astrology works.

i am looking for EVIDENCE. just a little evidence that it is anything more than broad sweeping statements that just about anyone can find a way to fit into their life/world/view.

AND, that when people say "he predicted A and B, and THEY BOTH CAME TRUE", i want to be sure that the astrologer didn't also predict C,D,E....X,Y and Z.
 
Desperado
Posts: 3226
5
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Not to worry, Fred

It's never going to happen (that's good IMHO). I mean 'proof' of such a thing as "astrology".

The 'real astrologer' is the one that won't talk about astrology with the exception of the one saying such thing.

Those who need to 'prove it' are possibly interested parties that want to make money off the gullible.

Those don't count IMHO...

Unless you (or anyone else) believes that there are 12 kinds of people (one for every sign or should I say constellation?) in the world, you have nothing to "worry" about (Not that I thought you did in the very first place!)
 
Tony Alicea
Desperado
Posts: 3226
5
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Hmmm...
Excuse me for continuing to think about this subject before I diverge into something else...

Maybe that is one of the reasons they use to call it an "occult science".

"Occult" In this context meaning 'hidden'.

Oh well, if it was good enough for Isaac Newton it's good enough for me.

I am referring to his great documented interest in Alchemy (judging from the many years that he lived, I take it that he was particularly careful while doing alchemical experiments. Other alchemists died young because of inhaled toxic fumes).
 
Ranch Hand
Posts: 1241
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Originally posted by basha khan:

Quote Dave lenton

I do believe that the stars have an effect on my life. Sometimes I look at them and feel interested or have sense of wonder.


Any logic? How many times predictions happened to u and not happened?

I cannot remember a single time I have read an astrology prediction (which is not vague enough to match just about anything) and then seen it come true. As for logic, I'm not sure what you mean.

To me the stars are fascinating enough without astrology. I wonder if the human tendency to attempt to derive wisdom and knowledge from the stars comes from the fact that they just look so damn good. They cannot believe that something that awe inspiring cannot effect our lives in some concrete way.

Astrology may also help people feel that they understand the stars. Its a little galling to see an uncountable number of amazing things in the sky above our heads, and not to know much about them. By assigning them a function (as devices which control aspects of the lives of some animals on a particular planet) makes them seem more understandable.
 
Ranch Hand
Posts: 279
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

I cannot remember a single time I have read an astrology prediction (which is not vague enough to match just about anything) and then seen it come true.



As far as I know, its true. I also believe that mostly people do this for publicity. A real astrologer is the one who doesnt do these kind of stupid predictions, like who will win the worldcup, when there will be war and give statements in the media.

But to me I understand that the stars do have an effect in human. Also regarding evidence, I know some people whom I have analysed with a little help from my cousin are having the same way as their charts say. I mean my cousin predicted that during this time period he will struggle, and during this time period, he will be good and so on, and it was true.

Just my views though.
 
Ranch Hand
Posts: 46
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I agree with Fred Rosenberger...

I have plotted several astral maps for my mother... She believes in these things piously and actually received training in astral maps (but since she didn't know how to operate the programs, I had to do it for her). And I have to confess that the first time I saw the astral map built with my stats, I was really amazed at the map's description because it matched my personality perfectly.

But since I'm skeptic, I wasn't satisfied with the "fact" that the position os stars and planets affected my birth. After a lot of time thinking about it and plotting astral maps, I came to the same conclusion: any astral map describes any person. It describes anybody's personality.

To reach this conclusion, I started changing my own stats... First it was the time I was born: 4:15. Every doctor rounds the number up or down before recording it in the birth certificate, so I changed it to 4:13 and... surprise! A significant portion of the astral map changed! But it still kept describing my characteristics very well. Then I did the same thing to my friends' astral maps... Instead of entering their stats, I'd use pre-loaded stats that came with the program, like Napoleon Bonaparte or Elvis Presley, without telling them, and they still would be amazed at the "magical" thing, that seemed to know everything about them (eventually I'd tell them I'd used them as guinea pigs for my experiments and would plot their "real" maps).

It's not easy for someone to understand how astral maps *really* work. But once you accept the explanation I provided, you'll see that other "mystical" things work in the exact same way... I've seen other forms of "profiling" people through mystical ways that put people in the same "categories", by saying, for example that "you have dreams, you have ambitions, you want to improve your life", a common trait shared by every single human being on planet Earth.
 
Pedro Penna
Ranch Hand
Posts: 46
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
PS: By "astral map", I mean "birth chart"...
 
Ranch Hand
Posts: 516
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Quote Dave Lenton

As for logic, I'm not sure what you mean.


The logic is simple, I'll believe in Astrology if,

1) If i get a cool reply to educate me the basic of astrology. which is about the connection of stars and humen (i posted detailed questien in my previous post).

2) If somebody actually experiencing the predictions come true in their life, always( i give 20% tolerance for error, if 80% happens, it's OK) . If sometimes happen something, it's not good enough.

If 1 and 2 is OK, (AND condition, not OR) , then i'll concider astrolgy.
 
Dave Lenton
Ranch Hand
Posts: 1241
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Originally posted by vjy chin:
But to me I understand that the stars do have an effect in human.

This may be a bit of a personal question, and I do not mean to ask anything inappropriate, or to offend, but do you have an idea how they affect humans? By this I mean what do they do to us, and by what mechanism do they do it?

It seems to me that many people who believe in astrology do not know the answer to this question (in respect to astrology). I find this a bit confusing. Without answers, or at least indications of possible likely answers, to these questions, why consider astrology to be likely or true in the first place?
 
Dave Lenton
Ranch Hand
Posts: 1241
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Originally posted by basha khan:
Quote Dave Lenton

As for logic, I'm not sure what you mean.


The logic is simple, I'll believe in Astrology if,

1) If i get a cool reply to educate me the basic of astrology. which is about the connection of stars and humen (i posted detailed questien in my previous post).

2) If somebody actually experiencing the predictions come true in their life, always( i give 20% tolerance for error, if 80% happens, it's OK) . If sometimes happen something, it's not good enough.

If 1 and 2 is OK, (AND condition, not OR) , then i'll concider astrolgy.

OK, thanks, that's a bit clearer.

Similarly, I will consider the likelihood of astrology being true to be considerably higher if I see some evidence pointing towards it being true. I hesitate to say "I'll believe in it" because I have a bit of a funny definition of the word "believe" (I think that we can say very little is true without making some kind of fallacy - almost nothing can be proven without any doubt). However, sufficient evidence would make the probability of being true that I assign to it raise considerably.

I think most scientific people take a similar view. While we may appear as cynical, most would like nothing better then to see evidence indicating high probability that something incredible is true. Science may demand a cynical view point, but that doesn't diminish the wonder and excitement scientists have when looking at interesting and unknown aspects of the universe. Unfortunately that cynical view point is often misinterpreted as disrespectful.
 
Ranch Hand
Posts: 3640
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Just for information.
Priyanka's astrological threat.
 
basha khan
Ranch Hand
Posts: 516
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Quote Dave Lenton

Unfortunately that cynical view point is often misinterpreted as disrespectful.


I respect this cynical view point. I am not telling science is compleate. Science is consistantly correcting. So cynical view point is good. But Astrology is different IMO.

If somebody tell me about a snake exists in a place i walk by, i certainly will be cautious, and what if a snake happened to be there?.

Anyhow i'll be certainly cautious in the way regardless of snake presence . And what if i dont know about the place I have to walk? I might ask to somebody, and will become cautious.

This is Astrology for me. Sometimes snake will be there. Mostly not.
 
vjy chin
Ranch Hand
Posts: 279
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

This may be a bit of a personal question, and I do not mean to ask anything inappropriate, or to offend, but do you have an idea how they affect humans? By this I mean what do they do to us, and by what mechanism do they do it?

It seems to me that many people who believe in astrology do not know the answer to this question (in respect to astrology). I find this a bit confusing. Without answers, or at least indications of possible likely answers, to these questions, why consider astrology to be likely or true in the first place?



Dave,

As you know, there are 12 boxes in the birthchart and each has its own significance. Each person's first house (box) will be different based on the birth time(within 12 only). The first house describes some characteristics, the 2nd one describes some others and likewise all the houses tells something. Also there are I think 8 stars to be planted in the chart and each star will have their own characteristics. For e.g Saturn will give more trouble than other stars, but after the saturn period ends it will give something good for you(I mean happiness or anything good). Sun is also treated as a star here and it will describe about leadership qualities, fame and so on.

When we calculate the chart, we need to consider the house and as well as the stars in the house and also the planets nearby.

E.X. If the Sun is in your first house, then you will be a good leader with good fame.

Then we need to consider some other things also. We have 2 things called Dasa and Bhukthi in which the stars will have major effect. Every time in your chart, some star will be in Dasa and some star will be in Bhukthi. We need to calculate these things also along with others.

So even if there is good star in a good house, it depends also in Dasa and Bhukthi. If your Dasa or Bhukthi is bad, then your good things will be reduced.

Aslo I just told my understanding and I am still not good in this field. But since I have seen my friends charts with my cousins help, I was able to relate their life using their charts.
 
Ranch Hand
Posts: 145
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Originally posted by basha khan:
[QB
The logic is simple, I'll believe in Astrology if,

1) If i get a cool reply to educate me the basic of astrology. which is about the connection of stars and humen (i posted detailed questien in my previous post).

If 1 and 2 is OK, (AND condition, not OR) , then i'll concider astrolgy.[/QB]




Well, as simple as this logic sounds, it is equally useless. It is nobody's responsibility to 'educate' you on anything. Astrology is not a religion and there are no prophets or missionaries who want to propagate their God/Religion.

So if you think it is useless, that's fine. If you think it has some logic, that is fine too. Nobody cares. Only way to find out is to make effort yourself, read the books, talk to people who practice it or any other mechanism.

Whether it works 10% or 90% of the time, is highly dependent on the astrologer and the subject. How do you define 'works'? There are some astrologers who make huge amount of money so for the people who pay these astrologers, it 'works' most of the time. That's why they pay. Whether it is only psychological, or real, who knows.

People even question homeopathy because the active ingredients in the medicine are practically non-existant. Western medicine pretty much trashes it. But it is big in India and Europe. So obviously, it 'works' at some level. If you have a disease and if nobody is able to cure it, you can try out homeopathy and see if it works. If you don't try it out, you *may be* the loser. But nobody is going to come and educate you about it.


If your definition of 'works' implies it should predict lottery numbers then that is even more ridiculous. It can only prove whether the astrologer 'works' or not. It does not prove or disprove whether astrology has the ability to predict or not. It is same as saying medical science doesn't work just because your doctor fails to cure you.
 
fred rosenberger
lowercase baba
Posts: 12772
51
Chrome Java Linux
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
the beauty of the JREF million dollar challenge is that the Astrologer says what "works" means, and how accurate. THEY define the test parameters. the JREF just makes sure that it is a properly done, double blind study.

it bothers me when leaders of governments use Astrologers to help them decide what is the correct policy decision. call me crazy.

and don't get me started on homeopathic medicine. "the active ingredients... are practically non-existant"??? are you SERIOUS?

i recently saw a homeopathic remedy that, according to the box itself, would require you to consume a glob of water the size of the solar system, and then drink about 9,999 more globs the same size, to consume exactly ONE MOLECULE of the active ingredient.

and it's disgusting to me when somebody STOPS legitimate, proven medical treatments because some woo-woo "doctor" tells them that "alternative medicine" has been practice for thousands of years.

people believed the world was flat for thousands of years, too. that doesn't mean it's right. reality is not a question of public opinion and majority rules.

the truth is that none of this has EVER been shown to be anything more than luck, subjective memory, or a placebo effect.
 
Ram Bhakt
Ranch Hand
Posts: 145
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Originally posted by fred rosenberger:
the beauty of the JREF million dollar challenge is that the Astrologer says what "works" means, and how accurate. THEY define the test parameters. the JREF just makes sure that it is a properly done, double blind study.

it bothers me when leaders of governments use Astrologers to help them decide what is the correct policy decision. call me crazy.

and don't get me started on homeopathic medicine. "the active ingredients... are practically non-existant"??? are you SERIOUS?

i recently saw a homeopathic remedy that, according to the box itself, would require you to consume a glob of water the size of the solar system, and then drink about 9,999 more globs the same size, to consume exactly ONE MOLECULE of the active ingredient.

and it's disgusting to me when somebody STOPS legitimate, proven medical treatments because some woo-woo "doctor" tells them that "alternative medicine" has been practice for thousands of years.

people believed the world was flat for thousands of years, too. that doesn't mean it's right. reality is not a question of public opinion and majority rules.

the truth is that none of this has EVER been shown to be anything more than luck, subjective memory, or a placebo effect.



That's the reason it is not a 'science' as defined by science. I put it in the same league as religion, intelligent design, UFOs, and what not.

But then again, just because it is not 'science' doesn't mean it is useless. People take 'guidance', if you will, from secondary sources everywhere. Prez Bush has said on record that God(or did he say Jesus) guided him when making a decision on Iraq. Do you think that has more rationale than another prez looking at a horoscope to make policy decisions?
I believe both are equally ridiculous or equally smart, depending on whome you ask.

You are right that "reality is not a question of public opinion and majority rules", but the problem is what you call reality is not the ultimate because it is really nothing but a your perception. By your definition, something may not 'work', but it might 'work' by another definition.
By the same definition, no existance of God has ever been proven. But people throng to religious places...some for cure, some for satisfaction, some for salvation. So obviously, it 'works' by their definition.
 
fred rosenberger
lowercase baba
Posts: 12772
51
Chrome Java Linux
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
i disagree with much of what you said, but for the sake of not getting into a place i don't think this forum should go, i'm going to drop out of this discussion.
 
Ram Bhakt
Ranch Hand
Posts: 145
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Originally posted by fred rosenberger:

and don't get me started on homeopathic medicine. "the active ingredients... are practically non-existant"??? are you SERIOUS?

i recently saw a homeopathic remedy that, according to the box itself, would require you to consume a glob of water the size of the solar system, and then drink about 9,999 more globs the same size, to consume exactly ONE MOLECULE of the active ingredient.



Not sure what you mean by that. The point is that homeopathic medicines contain very little amount of active ingredients as compared to allopathic medicines. So some people say that it give only placebo effect.

Regarding whether it works or not. I can tell you first hand information that it works. My mother was suffering from some serious skin disorder and was being treated by regular doctor for almost 3 yrs. Finally, they said it cannot be cured. Only after that, we learnt from someone about a professor in a renown engineering institute who also practices homeopathy. He treated her in 6 months. This happened 15 yrs ago. My mother, by God's grace, has been well ever since. I am not talking about any intangible disease like depression. It was a very visible skin condition which can be easily verfied. Can placebo fix it? May be. Could it be just luck/timing? May be. But I would rather believe that it works.


There are somethings that can be verified whether they work for you or not. So it doesn't matter if majority believes in it or not. It doesn't matter whether it is scientific or not. If it works for you, it works.
 
fred rosenberger
lowercase baba
Posts: 12772
51
Chrome Java Linux
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
<clarifying a point, not arguing further>

"Not sure what you mean by that."

what i mean by that is the following...

a common dilution for homeopathic remedies is 30C. 1C means to dilute the original substance to 1:100. 2C means to dilute it to 1:100, then take THAT and dilute it again to 1:100. each increase in the C number dilutes the original substance by a factor of 100.

so, a 30C dilution means you dilute it to 1 part in 10^60.

there are only something like 10^51 atoms in the earth. your medicine is diluted a billion times more than that, and you're only drinking - let's be generous, a cup of the homeopathic remedy. odds are pretty slim there would be even 1 molecule of the substance in there.

my point is that you are not consuming ANY of the substance that is supposedly in there.
 
Ram Bhakt
Ranch Hand
Posts: 145
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Originally posted by fred rosenberger:
<clarifying a point, not arguing further>

"Not sure what you mean by that."

what i mean by that is the following...

a common dilution for homeopathic remedies is 30C. 1C means to dilute the original substance to 1:100. 2C means to dilute it to 1:100, then take THAT and dilute it again to 1:100. each increase in the C number dilutes the original substance by a factor of 100.

so, a 30C dilution means you dilute it to 1 part in 10^60.

there are only something like 10^51 atoms in the earth. your medicine is diluted a billion times more than that, and you're only drinking - let's be generous, a cup of the homeopathic remedy. odds are pretty slim there would be even 1 molecule of the substance in there.

my point is that you are not consuming ANY of the substance that is supposedly in there.



So didn't I say the same thing, "active ingredients are practically non-existant"???
BTW, the example that you gave may or may not apply for ALL homeopatic prescriptions. I am not a doctor and I can't say whether it is correct or not. All I can say is that it did work in my mother's case. It was something that regular doctors could not cure for 3 yrs. I can choose to rely on the fact that there is no scientific evidence that it works, or on my experience. I choose my experience.
 
vjy chin
Ranch Hand
Posts: 279
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Now, Now,

This discussion has turned to homeopathy. I have also seen people cured by homeopathy, who in fact cannot be cured by western medicines.

Yes, it works and many people believe it. But to prove it, one has to be near them or personally used it. This again may be luck, time, but then again the western medicine may also luck, time. I feel everything has a geniune reason, but we may not know the exact reason for most of the things.

People may believe homeopathy, astrology or not, but its one's personal decision to use it or trash it.
 
Dave Lenton
Ranch Hand
Posts: 1241
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Originally posted by vjy chin:
Aslo I just told my understanding and I am still not good in this field. But since I have seen my friends charts with my cousins help, I was able to relate their life using their charts.

Thanks, that's quite interesting. Do you have any idea how it works though? By what mechanism do the stars actually change things for a person here?

Of course we don't need to know how something works to think that it does - I'm not clear how gravity gets energy to move things, but I believe it can move them. The difference in this case is that while I don't know how it works, there have been many scientific tests which show that gravity does have an effect. We can look at the test results, make some predictions, and then observe what happens. In this way we can come up with a theory that something we call gravity exists and we can talk about the effects it has.

(Sometimes in science we have things which happen the other way around. Black holes, for example, were predicted before they were found because people made predictions based upon how gravity works)

This is what science generally does to determine if something exists or not. Either we observe that it does, or we use calculations based upon how we think the universe works to predict that something should exist (and then we look for it).

You have described some fairly methodical ways of making astrological predictions. It seems to me that people do not understand how it works, so instead we should look at proving it's existence instead. However I have never seen any study which can scientifically prove astrology works either. So, there doesn't seem to be any explanation of how it works, or any scientific proof that it exists. For what reason should we believe it actually does? Anecdotal evidence is of course not the same as scientific proof. After all there used to be plenty of anecdotes of people falling off the edge of the flat world!
 
Dave Lenton
Ranch Hand
Posts: 1241
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Originally posted by vjy chin:
People may believe homeopathy, astrology or not, but its one's personal decision to use it or trash it.

Indeed. For the most part people should be left to believe what they want, and their beliefs should be respected.

However, if I lived in a country where people in power were making decisions based upon astrology (or some other similar thing), particularly decisions detrimental to the country, I would be quite upset..
[ June 28, 2006: Message edited by: Dave Lenton ]
 
Ranch Hand
Posts: 1408
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I think belief in astrology came about when people discovered they could predict the changes in the seasons by looking at the stars. "Wow! If the stars can predict something like this, what _couldn't_ they tell us?"

Belief in astrology makes me think of physicist Niel Bohr's lucky horseshoe that he had up on the wall. A friend asked whether he believed in superstitions and Bohr said, "Of course not!" Then friend followed, "Then why the lucky horseshoe?" Bohr replied, "They say it works even if you don't believe in it."
 
basha khan
Ranch Hand
Posts: 516
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Quote Ram Bhakt

Well, as simple as this logic sounds, it is equally useless. It is nobody's responsibility to 'educate' you on anything.


I don�t give that responsibility to anyone. If somebody believes in astrology can or willing to tell why they believe in astrology simply, and if that convince me, then it�s enough to educate me.

So if you think it is useless, that's fine. If you think it has some logic, that is fine too. Nobody cares. Only way to find out is to make effort yourself, read the books, talk to people who practice it or any other mechanism.

Cool. That's exactly what I am doing by posting this topic here. If I have to buy books to find out the basics, I may do it also. But why cant u guys who believe in it explain it according to your beliefs, with the replies so far, I am not convinced on astrology.

Whether it is only psychological, or real, who knows.

Sometimes God maybe knowing. Or not.
 
Ram Bhakt
Ranch Hand
Posts: 145
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Originally posted by Dave Lenton:
However, if I lived in a country where people in power were making decisions based upon astrology (or some other similar thing), particularly decisions detrimental to the country, I would be quite upset..



Unfortunately, this happens is EVERY place humans exist. We take decisions based on intuition, dreams, God's help, astrology, or luck. If the decision turns out to be good, the guy is termed a genious, otherwise, a loser. I have never met a guy who has never ever in his life has said, "Oh God, help me out". So I am not surprised if a leader of country does that too. This is human nature.

This happens because we do not know the future and we try to "know" it through any means so that we can take better decisions.
 
Ram Bhakt
Ranch Hand
Posts: 145
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Originally posted by basha khan:
Quote Ram Bhakt

Well, as simple as this logic sounds, it is equally useless. It is nobody's responsibility to 'educate' you on anything.


I don�t give that responsibility to anyone. If somebody believes in astrology can or willing to tell why they believe in astrology simply, and if that convince me, then it�s enough to educate me.

So if you think it is useless, that's fine. If you think it has some logic, that is fine too. Nobody cares. Only way to find out is to make effort yourself, read the books, talk to people who practice it or any other mechanism.

Cool. That's exactly what I am doing by posting this topic here. If I have to buy books to find out the basics, I may do it also. But why cant u guys who believe in it explain it according to your beliefs, with the replies so far, I am not convinced on astrology.

Whether it is only psychological, or real, who knows.

Sometimes God maybe knowing. Or not.



Most of the 'professional' astrologers that I have met are quacks. They thrive on FUD (fear, uncertainity, and doubt). Many people who go to them, go at a stage when they are in some kind of a trouble and are too weak to overcome the fear that these quacks instill in them.

So I would suggest you to either read a good book on it or talk to a person who does this for the satisfaction and not for money. Someone with whome you can have an intellectual discussion with an open mind. Some books are (they are in Hindi):

Brihatparashar Horashastra and Jatak Parijat.
Neither of these can be found on railway station book stalls. They are too deep with lots of mathematics involved. They include the mathematical calculations for location of the stars, their positions, their cycles, their relative separation. It is not trivial.

These books are published by Chaukhamba Prakashan in Varanasi and don't cost much ... about 200Rs.
 
vjy chin
Ranch Hand
Posts: 279
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Yeah,

I also dont like to follow Astrology entirely and I dont like one who follows it entirely, be it my friend or my state head.

But what I feel is, use it as a reference, but still work hard to overcome difficulties. Its easier said than done though. Even I wish some miracle happens to save me from troubles.

Also as Ram said, most astrologers bluff or they are bent on money. They prey on the suffering minds and make money easily.

But its my cousins hobby, so he learnt most of the stuff by himself, and with the help of his father. He also goes to many other astrologers just for references. He also used to refer lot of books, though I dont remember the titles.
 
Dave Lenton
Ranch Hand
Posts: 1241
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Originally posted by Ram Bhakt:
I have never met a guy who has never ever in his life has said, "Oh God, help me out". So I am not surprised if a leader of country does that too. This is human nature.

Sorry, I must disagree here. Perhaps you come from a less secular place then I do, but where I live there are plenty of agnostics and atheists who have never asked for help from a deity for supernatural spirit. On poll a couple of years ago showed that only 44% of the UK population said they believed in God and 35% said they do not. Speaking as a part of that 35%, I would be upset if my elected representatives based policy decisions upon something I believe not to be real!

Is it human nature? That's a bit of a bigger question and its probably outside of the scope of this thread to discuss it in detail. I think humans have a tendency towards believing in things without rational reasons to do so (I'm not trying to be insulting, but just to say that people believe some unproven things), but that this tendency probably has evolutionary instinctive causes rather then anything more meaningful. Besides, isn't saying "everyone does it" an example of the Bandwagon Fallacy? Just because lots of people believe something doesn't make it true

This happens because we do not know the future and we try to "know" it through any means so that we can take better decisions.

Absolutely. Not knowing the future can be quite stressful, and this is probably why we love the thought of something which can help remove that stress.
 
Ranch Hand
Posts: 579
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

By Fred Rosenbergeri'm sure that if you (or he) could accuratly predict the past of a stranger, simply by knowing the date/time/place of birth, it would qualify for the challenge


Leave the challenge matter,I tell you the more practical stuff.
Well what will you say if someone tell you your name,fathere's name,mother,wife names,your lotta characteristics and break and elevation time of your life just by SIING YOUR THUMB PRINT?Not believing?? Well come to Vaidhishvar Koil of kumbakonam where such records of EVERYONE has been put....Well many people's record is now missing but still there is a lot records available.It is believed that old Hindu saints wrote this for every future people.
For example they took thumb print of my friend's sister and told her that her husband is GOING TO have first name of Sun and second name of God Vishnu along with many other factsand it happened so.He carried the name as Surya Narayana.
A lot of other ins
 
vjy chin
Ranch Hand
Posts: 279
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Well what will you say if someone tell you your name,fathere's name,mother,wife names,your lotta characteristics and break and elevation time of your life just by SIING YOUR THUMB PRINT?Not believing?? Well come to Vaidhishvar Koil of kumbakonam where such records of EVERYONE has been put....Well many people's record is now missing but still there is a lot records available.It is believed that old Hindu saints wrote this for every future people.



I have also heard of this and I know its truly amazing. Actually my cousin went there, but for him, his records were not there. But some of my other friends went there and they were true for them. They were told about their career, marriage and other things which became true.

But then again, I have heard that one or two preists are after money and dont really tell the truth. But I dont know how far its true.
 
Tony Alicea
Desperado
Posts: 3226
5
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
As I have already stated (I think), I don't really care about convincing or not, anyone about astrology.

To add to the experiences that others have kindly shared, I became interested at age 19 when, while playing lead guitar in a rock band in St. Thomas for the third and last time, during the summer of 1969, I met a 'hippie' from San Francisco while he was reading a book on astrology sipping a Cuba Libre at Trader Dan's on the waterfront. It was not one of those "Sun-sign" books that pretend to tell you everything about you, given your birth month and day, but instead had a lot of numbers that I did not understand (from what I could see).

The point is that I sat in his table without him asking me, BUT immediately he said "you are the guitarist of the band at Duffy's right?" I said yes. "And I am also a student at the Univ. of Puerto Rico (UPR)".

"What gives with this astrology bullshit?" I recall saying (maybe not exactly in those words but in equivalent ones).

He started to explain but suddenly these three girls that had been to the club for a few nights in a row and were great looking, walked by and asked me the same question ("you are the guitarist of the band at Duffy's right?").

So I never finished the conversation with this SF dude. I only remember that he mentioned something about "table of logarithms" when I asked him what all the numbers that I saw in his book were.

I knew what Logarithms were due to the excellent high school training that my parents sacrificed themselves for. But I left it at that. The main subjects at hand were girls and music.

That fall, when I went back to the UPR, I happened to see one of my old-time friends at the Student Center READING A BOOK ON ASTROLOGY!

I said to him something like "we have been friends for a long time and you have always been the intelligent one of the bunch and here, in the middle of the Univ. of Puerto Rico, I "catch" you reading a book on astrology?

I told him about my encounter in St. Thomas a couple of months before... He laughed and told me that what was wrong in newspaper stories about 'horoscopes' etc. was that they didn't take into account the exact moment of birth of the individual and the exact place on the planet, that they were born.

He asked me if I could get my info he would 'cast a chart' for me. I went out of my way to get an official copy of my birth certificate which in Puerto Rico in those days (and maybe still) has *a* time of birth.

ANYWAY...

I gave it to him and time passed and passed and he never got around to it

The last time I asked him, he said to me something like "You are a smart guy. You can cast your own chart! Here! Have this book that tells you all the math steps that you need to take, and this other one will show you how to interpret the results."

I was almost ready to dismiss it but I had too much respect for his intellect and quickly read the book on calculations (which used logarithm tables right and left) and then judged the results with the other book.

After that I seek'd and found three or four other Univ. students interested in following our curiosity, and got in contact with a professor at the Univ, who was not known for these things except to a very few, one of them being my aforementioned friend that never did my chart.

The next year we attended an AFA Convention in Miami Beach (1970 or 1971) where I met Reinhold Ebertin and his son Baldur in person (as I mentioned before).
 
agrah upadhyay
Ranch Hand
Posts: 579
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Well one more fact.....In my college,one of my junior is entitled as "Shastri".He get this title for he has completed Astrology course fron Banaras University. If anyone just knows exactdate AND time of his birth,his 'Kundali' can be made and everything,EVERYTHING, can be inferred about him!!
 
Dave Lenton
Ranch Hand
Posts: 1241
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Originally posted by agrah upadhyay:
If anyone just knows exactdate AND time of his birth,his 'Kundali' can be made and everything,EVERYTHING, can be inferred about him!!

If so many people are able to do this kind of prediction, why has astrology never passed a scientific test of the kind mentioned above?

As I've said before, it would be great to see something amazing like this proved true, but I remain sceptical when the only evidence is based on hearsay. Go on, someone prove me wrong!
 
agrah upadhyay
Ranch Hand
Posts: 579
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Well I was searching the name of temple(Vaidhishwar Koil) I mentioned before on google but amazing!I could not find detail about it which really foretells a lot. If same would have been located in US/UK, it would be much popular(maybe I am wrong).What s reasons I do not know.Lack of advertisement of some temples due to religious issues!?

If so many people are able to do this kind of prediction, why has astrology never passed a scientific test of the kind mentioned above?


Why do not you undertake this? Well you come to India and really would find your name being foretelled as Dave(if records found). Well lotta people have found them true.And its NOT like that they tell you"You are a job holder,a socail animal, always struggling,married and desire to know about secrets,short tempered etc" or "liking coffee,a fan of court game,aficionado of Brazil team....".They will even foretell you your own name ,a good recrd of your family.Oh it can not be a set of permutations no?
 
Ranch Hand
Posts: 266
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Originally posted by agrah upadhyay:

Why do not you undertake this? Well you come to India and really would find your name being foretelled as Dave(if records found). Well lotta people have found them true.And its NOT like that they tell you"You are a job holder,a socail animal, always struggling,married and desire to know about secrets,short tempered etc" or "liking coffee,a fan of court game,aficionado of Brazil team....".They will even foretell you your own name ,a good recrd of your family.Oh it can not be a set of permutations no?



I'm pretty much interested in doing that. Could you give me details of where the place is and how to get there (Right now I'm in Chennai)? Are my finger prints the only things required? Or do I have to give other details, like my DOB, place of birth etc. As I have mentioned before, if the guy knows my horoscope, its no big deal guessing my name as I was named based on my star.
 
Ranch Hand
Posts: 5390
1
Spring Java
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Originally posted by Dave Lenton:
If so many people are able to do this kind of prediction, why has astrology never passed a scientific test of the kind mentioned above?



With no scietific proof, books are there that tell you how to read human body posture and know his personality or attituda at that moment.
 
R K Singh
Ranch Hand
Posts: 5390
1
Spring Java
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Originally posted by Satish Chilukuri:
Are my finger prints the only things required?



How much I know there is one in Nagpur, who may tell you about everything from your fingerprint.

I have never been there, but my friends from Nagpur says that Baba is 100% correct and never fails in telling past/present/future.
 
vjy chin
Ranch Hand
Posts: 279
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Vaidhishvar Koil is near Kumbakonam(50-60 kms) in Tamil Nadu. Its a famous Shiva Temple. You can goto Kumbakonam from chennai and from there you need to goto a place called Mayavaram(Also called as Maiyiladuthurai). From there you will get buses to Vaidhishvar Koil or in Mayavaram itself check with the transport department.

I think they only need your finger print. Then they will ask which part of life (career, job, marriage, business) you want. You can also ask them to give complete predictions.

If you go there, let us know.


I also feel something cant be proved by science. Astrology is much more older than science, and why should anyone prove astrology scientifically. Only some people who wants fame or money would do such things, but one who is really into astrology would not even think about that.
Just my opinion.
 
Satish Chilukuri
Ranch Hand
Posts: 266
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Originally posted by vjy chin:
Vaidhishvar Koil is near Kumbakonam(50-60 kms) in Tamil Nadu. Its a famous Shiva Temple. You can goto Kumbakonam from chennai and from there you need to goto a place called Mayavaram(Also called as Maiyiladuthurai). From there you will get buses to Vaidhishvar Koil or in Mayavaram itself check with the transport department.

I think they only need your finger print. Then they will ask which part of life (career, job, marriage, business) you want. You can also ask them to give complete predictions.


Thanks for the info.

If you go there, let us know.


Sure.


I also feel something cant be proved by science.


At least we can try to understand them. That's how we got so far (for better or worse).

Astrology is much more older than science, and why should anyone prove astrology scientifically.


Why would anyone like to prove things scientifically? Because proving so means that we understand that thing fully (at least to the point where no contradictions can crop up). And it is in our nature to try to understand how stuff works. How would you feel if you asked a question on how a program works and were told that it cannot be known and you just have to accept that it works? Would you leave it at that or would you dig into it to uncover its secrets?

but one who is really into astrology would not even think about that.


So do anyone who is really into science. No amount of money/power can buy the pure joy of knowing how life works; how the Earth and Sun work; how the Universe works.
 
incandescent light gives off an efficient form of heat. You must be THIS smart to ride this ride. Tiny ad:
Java file APIs (DOC, XLS, PDF, and many more)
https://products.aspose.com/total/java
  • Post Reply Bookmark Topic Watch Topic
  • New Topic
Boost this thread!