Mandatory Course Requirement for OCMJD & OCMJEA starting October 1st

[Chris Creed]

Well looks like I'm going to try to get in before the 11th. And if not, I'll just lump java certs in the same category as M$ certs; nothing more then money grabs. Thankfully certs of a technological nature are not valued here at all, it's all experience, with a bit of degree mixed in.

[Christophe Verré]

Jeanne Boyarsky wrote:Christophe,
I'm pretty sure they don't take the course prerequisites literally. They are meant for people following the program. I think someone can just register for the architecture course.

I hope so. Otherwise that would insanely expensive. I think they have to explicitly write it somewhere.

(ooohh... having an earthquake here.... )

[Sean Keane]

I think we all agree the introduction of courses as a requirement is a negative thing. So how about some concrete ideas of trying to persuade Oracle to change their mind?

I'll get the ball rolling .

1) We could create an online petition http://www.petitiononline.com/create_petition.html
2) We could mass email Oracle

If anyone has any ideas of how to get this story into the media, I think that would be useful, as a company is much more likely to change their mind due to negative publicity about their company rather than people simply complaining - I'm sure they expected people to complain when the cost of the certification increased five fold!!!

[Christophe Verré]

So how about some concrete ideas of trying to persuade Oracle to change their mind?

Why do you want to do that ? Why do you bother that much ?

[Roel De Nijs]

Christophe Verré wrote:

So how about some concrete ideas of trying to persuade Oracle to change their mind?

Why do you want to do that ? Why do you bother that much ?

I guess because he does not want to spend 3000 euros to be an OCMJD.

[Sean Keane]

Christophe Verré wrote:

So how about some concrete ideas of trying to persuade Oracle to change their mind?

Why do you want to do that ? Why do you bother that much ?

Why do people bother replying to posts on here, especially since they already have their OCMJD ?

Personally I hope to get the OCMJD submitted before 1st August - so this fee doesn't directly affect me at the moment.

As to why? Simply because there is no positive reason for change to the requirements from a developers perspective. It would be nice if future developers had the same opportunity as we have right now.

[Milton Ochoa]

Sean Keane wrote:I think we all agree the introduction of courses as a requirement is a negative thing. So how about some concrete ideas of trying to persuade Oracle to change their mind?

I'll get the ball rolling .

1) We could create an online petition http://www.petitiononline.com/create_petition.html
2) We could mass email Oracle

If anyone has any ideas of how to get this story into the media, I think that would be useful, as a company is much more likely to change their mind due to negative publicity about their company rather than people simply complaining - I'm sure they expected people to complain when the cost of the certification increased five fold!!!

I agree with you

[Elchin Asgarli]

If it is so hard to grade user-given assignments, why don't they just increase the price for exam instead of doing such ridiculous things?

[Ulrich Cech]

In germany, it is even more expensive... the $2250 courses cost 2210€+19% tax

I had contact with oracle, and there is no way to omit the courses. That means for me to leave the certifications.

[Elchin Asgarli]

Ulrich Cech wrote:In germany, it is even more expensive... the $2250 courses cost 2210€+19% tax

I had contact with oracle, and there is no way to omit the courses. That means for me to leave the certifications.

Scheiße Or you can still complete it until 1st of August, right? But it means weekends will be quite busy...

My biggest disappointment is for EA certification, since I was planning to take it sometime in 2012, however I think I will need to reconsider my plans..

[Ulrich Cech]

Elchin Asgarli wrote:
Scheiße Or you can still complete it until 1st of August, right? But it means weekends will be quite busy...

That's correct. But till august, this is impossible for me (family, big removal ...), and if I calculate every costs (course, hotel, no business in these days, travel expenses and so on), this will cost be in minimum 4000€. For these 4000€ I can buy nearly every Java book, that was published, and I don't think I get the same knowledge in these 5 days of some little course...

[Will Myers]

What Is The Value To The Candidates?
A big value of the hands-on course requirement to the credential-holders is that Oracle has eliminated a large group of people that I unkindly refer to as “bottom-feeders” – those individuals and groups (identified by Oracle back in 2002) whose sole goal was to exploit the brand-recognition of the Oracle credentials without really doing the work to become certified. This includes cheaters, those taking advantage of proxy-testing, and those taking real short-cuts to become certified in many different company programs - practices that became evident during the tech-bubble. These people’s actions tend to damage the credentials that many people have legitimately earned. “Bottom feeders” - for the most part - are not willing to spend the time, effort and money to attend an Oracle course.

This "bottom-feeder" argument is a joke - if you were the sort of person to just sit as many exams as possible to bolster your CV I very much doubt you would pick an exam that involves an assignment and then an exam based on that assignment. The exams you would pick would be the multiple choice ones....

This is about getting more money, Spring are trying it and look how it's working for them....

[Jayr Motta]

I support the idea of make an online petition or a mail flood on them, we can't accept everything and do nothing.

Become a certified architect is one of my biggest dream/goal and now its almost impossible once the currency in my country value the half of dollar. I'll have to pay 20k R$, almost the price of my car...

Let's do something or let them do whatever they want?

[Michael Ernest]

The shift I see has more to do with corporate policy and partner relationships than anything else. My view comes in part from having gone up three different chains of these exams: the sys admin path (before the add-ons like Storage Dude and whatever else), the Java path, and an Approved Installation Professional (AIP) path that applied to Sun Professional Services for installing high-end hardware.

The intent of the Solaris/Hardware programs at the time they were started, believe it or not, wasn't to make heaps of money. Sun needed a way to differentiate among its resellers who was qualified to stand behind Sun products, if and when they sold them. You want to sell workstations, it's ok if you have two guys who have passed the basic admin tests. You want to sell enterprise-class servers, it's ok if you have two guys who can also pass the network admin exam and have taken a course on performance management. You could take those exams on spec, or you could make sure your guys passed the first time by attending the courses just before the test.

At the same time, customers who bought the equipment also wanted the training. And there's your business model. Training + certification process for the resellers, training and maybe certification for customers, and a new business line is born. Perhaps in part because of Sun's halo effect at the time, lots of people wanted that certification, and the business snowballed for a while.

The Java certification process was born from the same idea, and meant to go along with the Sun Authorized Java Centers that were popping up at the time. Demand was crazy-outrunning supply of knowledgeable, let alone fully qualified, people for staff. The certification process was thus initially aimed at a services-reseller-and-customer model for Java similar to the one for Solaris and SPARC hardware. Not too hard to see that parallel, I hope -- most business units aren't terribly inventive about profit schemes with certification programs, after all.

Now the hard truth. You want to know what the *real* money grab was here? You guys! Every one of you who wanted the brand "Sun Certified xxx" created a new market, on top of the one Sun thought to leverage. Then everyone wanted one of these certifications. And they wanted to know how to pass the exam, and I mean right now. Ergo the kind of tone that RHE carried in its introduction -- to wit, there's folly in trying to bootstrap into this job market with certification -- was more or less tolerated by readers for a while. More explicit how-to-pass cert guides came to market soon enough, and of course most people wanted the very book that Simon, Phil and I weren't so interested in writing. And the secondary market for selling guides, tips, mock exams, helpful web sites (ahem), exploded. Don't kid yourselves -- you made this market, and that's perfectly ok. I think it worked out for most.

I don't appreciate the tone of the Oracle person quoted above, but that person has a point. A great many people look for ways to pass the exam as a bootstrap. The idea of it as informal accreditation was dropped a long time ago at Sun -- privately, mind you -- because the statistical evidence was pretty clear. Based on the number of vetted test questions that people got right 90% of the time or better, it's clear many people knew what to expect. The question base had been effectively reverse-engineered. In later revisions, you had the question writers themselves attending these unpaid item-writing sessions and then turning around to write the cert book. Why wouldn't you? Internally, there was some acknowledgment that the revenue made it easier to look the other way. Publically, Sun dropped the percentage required to pass the exam. It doesn't take much thought to realize that it's cheaper to pass most people in one visit than two. I'd guess the testing sites themselves had a big say in that change.

No one's spilling their guts to me about all this, so I don't have first- or even second-hand information. But I do see reason behind this policy change. I believe Oracle wants to aim these certifications back at something meaningful to them, e.g., certifying vendors and providing customer training. They want a bigger piece than they can get with exam administration fees alone, sure. I would guess that revenue has dwindled enough that no Oracle cert program manager risks fiscal suicide by changing tracks. The moral tone about who deserves certification is a convenient argument. A bad one, perhaps, but commonplace in reseller/partner programs. Resellers seem required to ask, when they join new programs, "How do I get around the rules? Since I'm special, why are you trying to apply these requirements to me?" The tone you're hearing comes from years of listening to those people whine about the expense of getting cleared to stand with the Oracle brand when they sell.

These programs were never meant to target the developer community, at least from that perspective. The revenue sure made it easy to "embrace" the community, and certain community-minded managers like Yvonne Prefontaine and Evelyn Cartagena loved and embraced that spirit. But they weren't the ones making business decisions about these programs. They worked on keeping the products viable and consumers feeling happy.

The real signal I read here? Oracle wants the program to serve the product channel. They expect to make money on internal departments' budgets, on partnering resellers, and customer companies whose support contracts, more and more frequently, have training bundled in. Certification becomes a kind of company perk, as it is with many far more obscure cert programs. I don't see how the certification becomes more valuable by this restriction, mind you. More coveted, perhaps. But without the once-massive dollars this program brought in with inexpensive, multiple-choice exam fees, and the clearly higher cost of human review of code or diagrams, it gets back to margins and what the program was meant to be when it was first started.

Gasp, gasp....it's been twelve years I have been watching this thing unfold. Sorry for the complete review of that time, but finally I've been able to spit it out and be done with it.

ME

[Sean Keane]

Interesting post - I managed to get to the end . But I'm not quite sure what your core point is? What I gathered from the post was that you think Oracle want to bundle these certifications with products that they sell - is my understanding correct?

A lot of what you say either doesn't make sense to me and I'm not quite sure what it adds to your explanation or whether even relevant to the Developer certification. Let me explain...

At the same time, customers who bought the equipment also wanted the training. And there's your business model. Training + certification process for the resellers, training and maybe certification for customers, and a new business line is born.

You don't need any particular equipment from Oracle to develop Java programs. So I don't see how the hardware + training link is valid here. Could you explain this some more?

Now the hard truth. You want to know what the *real* money grab was here? You guys!

I don't see what this paragraph adds? Every single exam in the world generates a market with books, tutorials, test exams, private tutors. Of course Oracle certifications are going to be no different. Nothing surprising or novel here. I don't see what this adds to your explanation of what Oracle are doing.

I don't appreciate the tone of the Oracle person quoted above, but that person has a point. A great many people look for ways to pass the exam as a bootstrap.

Whilst your argument may be true for the Java Programmer certification. I don't see the relevance for the Developer certification - there is no multiple choice exam. So this seems like an irrelevant point to me.

The real signal I read here? Oracle wants the program to serve the product channel.

What does that mean in practical terms? I don't see any difference from the point you are making and "Oracle simply want to make more money". No company is going to transform a source of revenue so that it makes less money. They expect to make more money with the new approach I'm sure.

But without the once-massive dollars this program brought...it gets back to margins and what the program was meant to be when it was first started.

Back to margins? What do you mean by this? What was the course meant to be when it first started?


The reasons you believe Oracle are changing the requirements aren't very clear from your post. I'd love to understand it as you seem to have a different angle on it than others - could you summarise more in a shorter version that speaks in more practical\concrete terms?

[Michael Ernest]

Hi Sean -

Frankly, I don't think it's all that interesting, really. Bottom line, Oracle believes they'll make more money and have a 'better' certification program going the way they have announced.

I only tried to lay a foundation for all this as a rational business decision. Internally, these programs are politically complex and financially dead simple. It's easy to imagine Oracle is taking a hostile tack, as some have inferred, and easy to take offense at the moral tone at least one Oracle person offered to defend the change.

But if it's too thick as I presented it, probably not worth trying to state it some other way. Just that there's more than meets the eye to it all.

[Sean Keane]

Michael Ernest wrote:Bottom line, Oracle believes they'll make more money and have a 'better' certification program going the way they have announced.

Thanks Michael, that pretty much summaries it. But why do you think that Oracle believe they will have a better certification program going down this route?

Are you saying that you believe the comments from the Oracle representative where he outlines the reason for the course requirement is to make the certification "better", get rid of people who cheat whilst doing the certification, and get rid of the "bottom feeders" as they mention? Or do you think there's another reason why Oracle believe their new route will lead to a better certification?

The two main reasons people have put forward for Oracles motivations are financial and secondly to attempt to get rid of the certifications by making the cost prohibitive. Does your theory present a different motivation on Oracles behalf?

[Michael Ernest]

Not a different theory as a different motivation.

There are really two kinds of certifications in an around our industry. Standards certifications, which usually apply to business process, and brand certifications, which usually apply to product/service training. There's a third line of business which is usually independent of a single vendor and standard, like Scrum or A+.

I think, in part, Oracle considers the "exam business" as more or less belonging to this third line. There's nothing wrong with it -- unless you're an asshole and you like to refer to people who don't make you any real money as "cheaters" and "bottom-feeders" -- but it doesn't really add to a business model like Oracle's. They have products, they have services, they have a brand. If they're going to certify people in a skill, I imagine they want the program to have a seal-of-approval kind of feel to it.

And they want to capture more of the money! As you mention, there will always be room for third-party books, mock exams, etc. But training is the big plum. I've been through this whole mess not just with Sun in three different skill areas. I've been through it with VERITAS, LEGATO, Cisco, Netscape, GoldMine (a contact-database product), etc. They all have the same business model in mind. Whether you're selling their product or using it, they want the training business for several reasons. One is credibility: Oracle-brand training for Oracle-brand certification for your Oracle-brand skills on your Oracle-brand product, helping all the world to achieve an Oracle-brand way of life. A second is -- I hope it's clear by now -- as much attention to their services and way of doing things as possible. Done properly, it leads to a number of interesting side-effects, like reducing the need for tech support, because, presumably, you now know better what you're supposed to be doing with the product. It is also a way of establishing better communications with partners and customers because that kind of training should promote a common language for talking about products and services. If, that is, you're not just whoring the program for extra dollars (coughLegatocoughcoughNetscapecough). And of course, more money flow between companies this way necessarily means tighter relationships in the most practical sense.

None of that -- sorry, here it comes -- "synergy" comes about with exams alone. So why support it, unless there's gobs of money to be made you can't ignore. I'd expect that to be the case with the Associate and perhaps the Programmer exams. Further up the chain, past the multiple-choice thing, I'd guess Oracle sees more of the kind of business opportunity they'd like to keep to themselves.

[Kumar Raja]

It is so shame that Oracle is trying to mint money out of these certifications. Its more like buying certifications rather than proving yourself. I wish Oracle changes its mind and do not impose this mandatory course.... I seriously question, what worth it would be to spend $3000 to buy a certification.

[Michael Ernest]

Kumar Raja wrote:It is so shame that Oracle is trying to mint money out of these certifications. Its more like buying certifications rather than proving yourself. I wish Oracle changes its mind and do not impose this mandatory course.... I seriously question, what worth it would be to spend $3000 to buy a certification.

Attending the course doesn't buy you a certification, so far as I am aware. It's just an additional requirement -- an expensive one, at that.

[Kumar Raja]

Hi,

Does it mean that all the three parts of SCEA need to be completed before August 1, 2011 or if I complete the first part before August 1 and plan to take the other two after August 1, should I still take the course.

[Michael Ernest]

All three parts must be submitted. by the change date. I believe there may be some allowance to re-do the third part, shortly after the August date, if you don't pass it the first time. What you won't be able to do is start the exam process just before the August date and then take your time.

[Sean Keane]

Kumar Raja wrote:Hi,

Does it mean that all the three parts of SCEA need to be completed before August 1, 2011 or if I complete the first part before August 1 and plan to take the other two after August 1, should I still take the course.

I got verification from Oracle on the Developer certification. Once you complete both parts before the deadline any resubmission will not require you to take a course i.e. if you submit before the deadline and fail after the deadline then all you have to pay is the resubmission fee and you won't have to attend a course.

I would suggest you contact Oracle and ask them to clarify the situation for the Architect exam - they are the only people who can give you the definitive answer to your question.

I would guess that a similar situation exists for the Architect certification - i.e. once you submit\complete all parts by the deadline you will not be required to take a course if you need to resubmit. If you fail to submit\complete all parts by the deadline then you will then be subject to the new requirements and thus you will have to attend a course.

If I was doing the Architect exam right now. I would make sure I pass Part 1 ASAP and then make sure I submit Part 2 and complete Part 3 before the deadline. I would submit Part 2 before the deadline regardless of how complete it was. Doing this will ensure you have longer to complete Part 2 without having to pay for a course.

[Sean Keane]

Michael Ernest wrote:Done properly, it leads to a number of interesting side-effects, like reducing the need for tech support, because, presumably, you now know better what you're supposed to be doing with the product.

Hi Michael. Thanks for the reply - it is sort of clearer to me now. However, this is where I don't understand your reasoning. What product would a customer buy from Sun where being a certified Java Developer or Java Architect would mean they would know better what that are supposed to be doing with the product?

[Michael Ernest]

I mentioned before the Sun Java Centers that once used to be, which were a kind of professional services franchise that Sun set up. Presumably you could go to one of these places and get top-notch developers, designers and architects to help you on your Java project. Certification was, at least initially, a way they could extend their services brand. First, by providing certified talent for projects, second by offering certification customers as a way of putting a brand to the training/mentoring services they made available.

The business model meandered away from that premise pretty quickly, but that's where it started.

[Sean Keane]

Correct me if I am wrong Michael but am I right in understanding that you are suggesting that Oracle are looking at becoming a services company that provides teams of developers and architects for projects, just like Accenture or any other services company. That they are going to hire 100's (1000's?) of these people in all the main markets (NCSA, EMEA, APAC) and get them all certified and then deploy them on projects?

Leading on from that theory, you are suggesting that Oracle want to discourage your normal "non-Oracle" engineer from getting Oracle certified. The reason being it makes their services more favorable as they can say to "hey, come get us to develop your project, we have fully certified teams of developers and architects"?

[Michael Ernest]

I see Oracle heading in that direction, sure. Following software licensing, technical services is a lucrative area.

Right now the way Oracle does it is through their partner resellers, and that's not likely to change at all. So what I really see happening is Oracle using certification to ensure the technical people at these partner companies are up to snuff.

I do not see Oracle taking this stuff in-house and hiring lots of people in some dramatic way. Not their style. Where Sun might have thought that keeping the certification process open to all comers was (also) a way of evangelizing Java, that's clearly not how Oracle thinks. They buy technology, brand it, license it, sell it. The way I see it, Oracle will be more interested in controlling their brand -- a certification program being one aspect of that -- than making sure everyone wants it.

[Michael Ernest]

It is now my understanding that the Architect certification is the only EE-level cert with a training prerequisite. All other EE certs can be taken straight away. Same will hold true for the Developer certification and any other cert that is organized under the 'Master' label.

If you're very interested in either of these, I recommend finding a way to get one done by August 1. Except for those of you who collect merit badges for sport, I daresay aiming for both makes very little sense. And I say that have certifications both as a Solaris sys admin and a Java programmer/developer/architect, never mind an advanced degree and doctoral work completed in English literature. Choose the certification that promotes you for the kind of work you want to do.

[Bernd Wollny]

Howdy guys,

since some of these courses are standards, if i have already taken a course (SL-425) in the past, does it count? (It was not from Oracle itself, some other company did it.)

Regards
Bernd

[Michael Ernest]

Bernd Wollny wrote:Howdy guys,
since some of these courses are standards, if i have already taken a course (SL-425) in the past, does it count? (It was not from Oracle itself, some other company did it.)

I don't know for sure, but I'd say the chances of that are close to zero. I have never heard of a skills certification provider in this industry accepting prerequisites offered by another company.

[yusuf Kaplan]

Sean Keane wrote:Hands up anyone doing the OCMJD who feels they'd need to attend one of these courses to complete the project, or even feels like they'd gain US$ 2,250 worth from them???

Hi I did not follow the whole thread. Just want to say something with the respect to the quoted comment above.
Why pay US $2,250 for the exam?
Just pick the self study CD ROM with the topic "Fundamentals of the Java Programming Language, Java SE 6" for the SCJD.
There you have to pay only US $600.
So from my point of view you have to pay "only" US $600 to get the SCJD. Is that correct?

[Elchin Asgarli]

yusuf Kaplan wrote:

Sean Keane wrote:Hands up anyone doing the OCMJD who feels they'd need to attend one of these courses to complete the project, or even feels like they'd gain US$ 2,250 worth from them???

Hi I did not follow the whole thread. Just want to say something with the respect to the quoted comment above.
Why pay US $2,250 for the exam?
Just pick the self study CD ROM with the topic "Fundamentals of the Java Programming Language, Java SE 6" for the SCJD.
There you have to pay only US $600.
So from my point of view you have to pay "only" US $600 to get the SCJD. Is that correct?

Because Oracle requires that you attend an instructor-lead(!) course.

[yusuf Kaplan]

Elchin Asgarli wrote:

yusuf Kaplan wrote:

Sean Keane wrote:Hands up anyone doing the OCMJD who feels they'd need to attend one of these courses to complete the project, or even feels like they'd gain US$ 2,250 worth from them???

Hi I did not follow the whole thread. Just want to say something with the respect to the quoted comment above.
Why pay US $2,250 for the exam?
Just pick the self study CD ROM with the topic "Fundamentals of the Java Programming Language, Java SE 6" for the SCJD.
There you have to pay only US $600.
So from my point of view you have to pay "only" US $600 to get the SCJD. Is that correct?

Because Oracle requires that you attend an instructor-lead(!) course.

Damn, but why then should you buy the self study CD?
This might be for people who can swim in money and wants to donate it to poor companies like Oracle.

[Roel De Nijs]

yusuf Kaplan wrote:Damn, but why then should you buy the self study CD?
This might be for people who can swim in money and wants to donate it to poor companies like Oracle.

You don't have to buy the self-study CD, you just have to follow an instructor-led course.

Or you can start with the certification now and finish both parts prior to 1 August 2011 and don't have to meet this mandatory course requirement.

[yusuf Kaplan]

Roel De Nijs wrote:

yusuf Kaplan wrote:Damn, but why then should you buy the self study CD?
This might be for people who can swim in money and wants to donate it to poor companies like Oracle.

You don't have to buy the self-study CD, you just have to follow an instructor-led course.

Or you can start with the certification now and finish both parts prior to 1 August 2011 and don't have to meet this mandatory course requirement.

Alright, I want to avoid the course fee. Lets assume some situations. (This might be interesting for some other Java Greenhorns as well)
1. I take the first part before 1 August. I get the result after 1 August and failed it. Do I have to pay for next trial of part 1 and the first trial of part 2?
2. I take the first part before 1 August. I get the result before 1 August and failed it. Do I have to pay for next trial of part 1 and the first trial of part 2 (both after August)?
3. I take the first part before 1 August. I get the result after 1 August and pass it. Do I have to pay for the 2nd part?
4. I take the first part before 1 August. I get the result before 1 August and pass it. Do I have to pay for the 2nd part?

I think there are several other interesting combinations where you need to take the course or not...

General question: I can only take the 2nd if I pass the first one, right?

[Roel De Nijs]

yusuf Kaplan wrote:Alright, I want to avoid the course fee. Lets assume some situations. (This might be interesting for some other Java Greenhorns as well)

This is already answered in the 1st page of this topic and is also in the 1st post of this topic.

You have to take both parts (for OCMJD) before 1 August 2011 to avoid the mandatory course requirement. If you would fail for the assignment part (you can't fail for the essay exam) then you can resubmit your assignment after 1 August 2011 without having to follow the extra course.

yusuf Kaplan wrote:General question: I can only take the 2nd if I pass the first one, right?

No, you have to take the 2nd part (the essay exam) prior (or after) submtting the assignment. They will be graded together, so you won't receive any grade (fail/pass) unless you have completed both parts of this certification.

[Bernd Wollny]

Hi,

once more my question concerning OCMJEA under a new context: a course taken in the past (last year), will it be accepted as the required course? I have taken it in a Sun Education Center,
the course was the SL-425. When no one knows, who to contact? Oracle at '[email protected]' or at '[email protected]'?

Regards
Bernd

[Ivan Krizsan]

Bad news, boys and girls.
I wrote to Oracle and asked about resubmitting a failed assignment after August 1st and received this answer:

Yes, if the candidate has to retake any exam or assignment after 01 Aug 2011, then they have to complete the Hands-on course requirement.
Regards,
OCP Team

Enjoy!