Jay Orsaw wrote:
Also what's this "strong threat" on the GUI side?> That's why FX is around :p.
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Paul Anilprem wrote:
Pat Farrell wrote:
Paul Anilprem wrote:Can you take a jar built on another machine and run it on Android? This is a genuine question.
I don't think you mean what you wrote.
Yes, of course, that happens all the time. Its not a big deal. The normal development environment for IOS and Android is to develop on a desktop or laptop and then download the resulting binary to the device. We do it all the time. You can even run code on your Windows/OS-X/Linux machine with another VM, say the Dalvic VM.
What you seem to be trying to argue is that you want to build the same jar and run it on desktops, laptops, servers, smartphones, tablets, TVs, and refrigerators. If so, you really should say that. I personally don't think that is very desirable, and I can argue that its actually a bad thing.
I apologize if my question is not clear. Please attribute it to my ignorance of the Android development process. I can give you an example of what I mean, if that makes it more clear. Can a Java desktop application jar (that has windows, dialogs, tables, trees) run on Android as it is?
If it is the GUI APIs that is a problem, can a headless java application jar (which uses all of JRE except awt and swing) run on Android as it is?
If the answer to both of the above questions is no, then would it be fair to say that the platform doesn't support the any version of Java? If so, I see that as a threat to Java because it forces companies like ours to look for technologies that can deliver our content to popular consumer devices without have to maintain multiple code bases. Up to this point, i.e. before Android and iOS devices became so popular, Java (as in the JRE ) was a winner for us. It doesn't look that way anymore. Any technology that gives us WORA for this generation is what is required.
Paul Anilprem wrote:
Jay Orsaw wrote:
Also what's this "strong threat" on the GUI side?> That's why FX is around :p.
As of today, can you write a JavaFX application that runs on desktop and android iOS? If no, it is vaporware. If yes, then great! All is well![]()
Re: JavaOne 2012: JavaFX on iOS, Android and Windows 8 Metro???
Posted: Oct 6, 2012 2:45 PM in response to: MiPa
Helpful
I saw a presentation at JavaOne that included information on how to bundle your Java/JavaFX app for the Apple store, so that's doable today.
As far as Android/iOS support, I spoke with a couple of Oracle people informally (and verified if they would not have a problem with me sharing what was said to me by them), and they say they have the JRE and JavaFX running on both devices/OSs in the labs, but the management has not made a decision yet if they want to go down that route or not. Worries about eating into their other profit centers (ADF, etc.), and if there was truly any real (vs. just talking about it) demand for iOS/Android support.
So I'd suggest making your voices heard to Oracle, if you think being able to write a JavaFX app on Windows, Mac, Linux, micro-hardware, AND iOS / Android, would be a good thing or not. Personally, I think that would be a game changer and a no-brainer.
The anger and passion exhibited on this thread is very gratifying and very helpful.
Even more helpful would be to funnel as many developers to me as you find that
have a demand for FX on smartphones and tablets. You'll not find more passionate
partisans for JavaFX than here in the Java group. Being able to demonstrate
industry demand and commitment is what we need. Of course, when JavaFX is
open sourced (as Hasan announced at JavaOne we will complete shortly), then
of course anybody could do a port to iOS / Android. The question isn't about whether
or not JavaFX will be on smart phones -- it will be. The question is who is funding
it and who is supporting it. Of course many of us feel that supporting iOS and
Android is at least as important as Windows and Mac. However, it is hard to fault
the guys paying the bills for asking for some evidence of that viewpoint. Customers
beating on our doors demanding support for FX on these devices is exactly that
evidence.
But in any case, this is an open source project, and regardless of whether Oracle
foots the bill, I have no doubt that FX will be on iOS, Android, and Windows Metro.
If you'd like to help, funnel your demands and use cases to me (and they have all
the more weight when there is a real commercial demand behind them)!
Richard
> "JavaFX is no longer intended for use on SmartPhones. The iPhone, Android
> and Windows Mobile phones are provided by the respective platforms, there is
> no room there for JavaFX. JavaFX is targeted at the desktop to replace Swing
> and at smaller devices that run embedded Java."
This is certainly not the position that I've taken or that the Java client organization has taken. We do not at this time have iOS or Android on our official roadmaps, but we have not taken a position to say that JavaFX is not (or will not) be used on smart phones.
Richard
Jay Orsaw wrote:I was thinking also what if you have an applet that's on the web, will it work on your mobile devices?
Pat Farrell wrote:
Jay Orsaw wrote:I was thinking also what if you have an applet that's on the web, will it work on your mobile devices?
Applets? as in Java Applets? Are you seriously writing them today, in 2013? They were designed back in 96 or so to solve what looked to be a real problem. They failed. Any interesting applet has to talk back to the server that hosts the HTML page. As a piece of Java code, the obvious choice is to use RMI, but RMI is a disaster in the general internet. Its worse than a disaster in the enterprise worlds.
I haven't heard of anyone starting new Applet development in at least a decade, although there are a few legacy systems in use that seem to work well in a limited environment. (i.e. not trying to cross corporate firewalls).
Once you decide that you have to be able to cross firewalls, the obvious choice is Javascript and AJAX. [note, I hate Javascript for a long list of reasons that are OT here] With Ajax and Javascript, there is no reason to even talk about applets.
Jay Orsaw wrote:
Pat Farrell wrote:Applets? as in Java Applets?
Yes, yes I am. But the real question I wanted to know is if the java code or javafx code would be able to run via the device itself.
Paul Anilprem wrote:
Pat Farrell wrote:
Paul Anilprem wrote:I thought Java doesn't run on Android. There is no JRE available for Android (or iOS). Isn't that true? My understanding is that Android uses Java identical language but has its own VM and libraries. But you can't take a regular java application and run it on Android.
Its a legal problem, not a technical one. Oracle wants a license and money to run Java on a platform. Google doesn't want to pay. So Google implemented Dalvic. They claim in a clean room. So you actually write Java code that runs on the Dalvic JVM and uses Dalvic libraries when you call Dalvic APIs.
To anyone but a lawyer, you write Java code to call Dalvic APIs and run java on anddroid.
Can you take a jar built on another machine and run it on Android? This is a genuine question.
Steve
Pat Farrell wrote:Let me try to clarify/explain a bit. But I think your fundamental question is really not useful, no matter what is behind it.
Android does not run a JVM, it runs the Dalvic VM. It runs Java generated byte-code.
It includes libraries for all the usual APIs, so your System.out.println() works.
...You can use normal Java dialog boxes, but its not clear that you really want to.
Steve
Jay Orsaw wrote:
Pat Farrell wrote:Applets? as in Java Applets?
Yes, yes I am. But the real question I wanted to know is if the java code or javafx code would be able to run via the device itself.
Steve
Steve Luke wrote:Not all. A significant number, more than JavaME, less than JavaSE, mostly Java5 with some Java6 mixed in. See http://developer.android.com/reference/packages.html for a list of the packages available.
Steve Luke wrote:Neither the java.awt nor the javax.swing packages are included in Android. Not sure what packages JavaFX uses. But no, you can't use normal Java UI.
Pat Farrell wrote:
Steve Luke wrote:Not all. A significant number, more than JavaME, less than JavaSE, mostly Java5 with some Java6 mixed in. See http://developer.android.com/reference/packages.html for a list of the packages available.
Thanks for the correction.
I still say that the idea of taking a completed Java desktop app and expecting it to run unchanged on a smartphone or tablet is not what users expect.
Thus the differences between DEX-code and byte-code, and various APIs is far less important that it would seem at first glance.
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Paul Anilprem wrote:I doubt people running the show at MS are idiots. It is not for nothing that they are trying hard to get the same experience on mobile and desktop.
Paul Anilprem wrote:In this respect, the distinction between dex code and byte code is very important. From what I now understand about Java on Andriod is that Java syntax, routine names, and java package hierarchy is basically replicated on Android's platform. Underneath, it is an entirely different platform that has little to do with Java.... but that's not WORA. (I understand your viewpoint that it is undesirable anyway.)
Paul Anilprem wrote:
I suspect you are thinking from mouse driven vs touch driven apps perspective and I agree in that case. Nobody expects older apps to work on desktop and mobiles (but if they do work, great!). But situation has changed or is rapidly changing. Desktops are also getting touch based these days. It is not only desirable to have the same application running on desktop as well as tablets but it is almost expected. Again, I am talking about new apps.
I doubt people running the show at MS are idiots.
It is not for nothing that they are trying hard to get the same experience on mobile and desktop. Whether they will succeed or not is a separate issue but what they are trying makes a lot of sense, IMHO.
That is why I said at the beginning of the discussion that MS has the potential. I believe it is on the right track. What I find interesting is that Apple is not trying to do that and they are not idiots either
I think Google is trying that through its Chrome book but I am not sure.
In this respect, the distinction between dex code and byte code is very important. From what I now understand about Java on Andriod is that Java syntax, routine names, and java package hierarchy is basically replicated on Android's platform. Underneath, it is an entirely different platform that has little to do with Java.
Steve
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Paul Anilprem wrote:I learnt from this discussion that JavaFX is a potential solution if really becomes available but it could also be DOA, reasons for which haven't been specified here
Someone else in Jay's post wrote:> "JavaFX is no longer intended for use on SmartPhones. The iPhone, Android
> and Windows Mobile phones are provided by the respective platforms, there is
> no room there for JavaFX. JavaFX is targeted at the desktop to replace Swing
> and at smaller devices that run embedded Java."
Richard wrote:This is certainly not the position that I've taken or that the Java client organization has taken. We do not at this time have iOS or Android on our official roadmaps, but we have not taken a position to say that JavaFX is not (or will not) be used on smart phones.
Richard
Steve
Steve Luke wrote:It is not just the mouse vs. touch. It is computing power, sensors, cameras, storage, 'always connected' but never safely so for networking... there is a lot of distinction between the desktop and the mobile. You have to write an app that is designed for the mobile, embraces its features and limitations.
Steve Luke wrote:Assuming the difference between mobile and desktop is superficial is incorrect. Assuming an app can be ported from one to the other can only be done if you take the lowest common denominator, which would not take advantage of either system's capabilities. It would be a bad application on either device.
Paul Anilprem wrote:Maintaining two codebases - one for desktop and one for mobile is way better than maintaining 4 codebases - one for desktop and 3 for three mobile OSs. I imagine it would be in Oracle's interest to push some version of the JRE to all three mobile platforms.
Steve Luke wrote:
Paul Anilprem wrote:I learnt from this discussion that JavaFX is a potential solution if really becomes available but it could also be DOA, reasons for which haven't been specified here
I think you can stop hoping for JavaFX, especially don't propose your company wait for it. Jay posted this quote earlier, which he says came from Richard Bair (Chief Architect, Client Java Platform, Oracle):
Someone else in Jay's post wrote:> "JavaFX is no longer intended for use on SmartPhones. The iPhone, Android
> and Windows Mobile phones are provided by the respective platforms, there is
> no room there for JavaFX. JavaFX is targeted at the desktop to replace Swing
> and at smaller devices that run embedded Java."
Richard wrote:This is certainly not the position that I've taken or that the Java client organization has taken. We do not at this time have iOS or Android on our official roadmaps, but we have not taken a position to say that JavaFX is not (or will not) be used on smart phones.
Richard
If that quote actually came from Mr. Bair then I believe it signs the death certificate for JavaFX on mobile. It sounds like giving hope, but it is marketing double speak. This is what is called 'deciding by not deciding'. By leaving the deployment off of their roadmaps they are saying they have no intent to do it. By saying they haven't decided never to do so, they are trying to keep everyone from jumping ship now- both on JavaFX in any context, and on Java in general on the mobile. After all, if the only platforms you target for Java is Windows Phone, why not use something more native like C#? The concept of WORA would not apply, so there is no motivation to use Java on any (mobile) device.
The question isn't about whether
or not JavaFX will be on smart phones -- it will be. The question is who is funding
it and who is supporting it
Steve Luke wrote:
Paul Anilprem wrote:
I suspect you are thinking from mouse driven vs touch driven apps perspective and I agree in that case. Nobody expects older apps to work on desktop and mobiles (but if they do work, great!). But situation has changed or is rapidly changing. Desktops are also getting touch based these days. It is not only desirable to have the same application running on desktop as well as tablets but it is almost expected. Again, I am talking about new apps.
It is not just the mouse vs. touch. It is computing power, sensors, cameras, storage, 'always connected' but never safely so for networking... there is a lot of distinction between the desktop and the mobile. You have to write an app that is designed for the mobile, embraces its features and limitations. Assuming the difference between mobile and desktop is superficial is incorrect. Assuming an app can be ported from one to the other can only be done if you take the lowest common denominator, which would not take advantage of either system's capabilities. It would be a bad application on either device.
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Paul Anilprem wrote:Besides mouse vs touch, all other differences are temporary.
As someone said earlier, even smartphones have quad core processors now.
So I see no reason why smartphone cannot catch up with desktops in terms of CPU, RAM, Network speed, battery, and storage.
Developing separate customized apps for mobile and desktop is what happens today. My bet is that it will not be that way a few years from now.
Steve
Jay Orsaw wrote:Na I don't think so at all, sorry to scare you haha, I was trying to post things FOR FX on Mobile, not against it :P.
Before that post he writes this which I bolded in my previous post
The question isn't about whether
or not JavaFX will be on smart phones -- it will be. The question is who is funding
it and who is supporting it
Also remember the first part you quoted was from a 3rd party site which should be taken down because it's not legit, as well as Mr. Brair himself saying that isn't true.
I think the problem is the support for JavaFX and "how many people want it." It kind of sound slike a joke to even ask the question because OF COURSE we want it on mobile. What's the point of these amazing features(JavaFX is really nice) if we cannot use them to their full abilities? It's either Oracle steps their game up, or the CodenameOne takes over and we have something.....
Also as others have said, email him and voice your reasons, they WANT to do it, I think they are scared no one is going to want it, which again seems a little ... If we make ourselves heard we can hopefully bring forth change!!!
Steve
Steve Luke wrote:
Paul Anilprem wrote:Besides mouse vs touch, all other differences are temporary.
Only if you think of the PC as a stationary target, which it isn't. It gets better, faster, more storage, higher throughput, better network every couple months.
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Steve Luke wrote:First, I should preface this with the fact that I do not work at Oracle, know Mr. Bair, or have insight into their roadmaps. Just posting my reaction to those quotes...
Jay Orsaw wrote:Na I don't think so at all, sorry to scare you haha, I was trying to post things FOR FX on Mobile, not against it :P.
I know you were, but the effect is the opposite. If a company doesn't have something on their roadmap, it means they don't plan to do it. That is what roadmaps are for. If they planned to do it but didn't want to tie up resources on it they schedule it in 2014 or 2015, far enough to say 'don't think or act on it, but it is gonna happen.'
Before that post he writes this which I bolded in my previous post
The question isn't about whether
or not JavaFX will be on smart phones -- it will be. The question is who is funding
it and who is supporting it
Which sounds a lot like "We aren't funding it, we aren't supporting it, but surely, someone will." If the basics like funding and support are not known than you can't be optimistic about delivery. What was shown at JavaOne was a proof of concept, but not all concepts get delivered. I have a hard time believing Apple would ever let it on their devices since they specifically ban that sort of thing. And if you can't get on iOS it makes it hard to justify it (in my opinion).
Also remember the first part you quoted was from a 3rd party site which should be taken down because it's not legit, as well as Mr. Brair himself saying that isn't true.
True, I included it in my post to put context to the first statement in the Bair quote.
I think the problem is the support for JavaFX and "how many people want it." It kind of sound slike a joke to even ask the question because OF COURSE we want it on mobile. What's the point of these amazing features(JavaFX is really nice) if we cannot use them to their full abilities? It's either Oracle steps their game up, or the CodenameOne takes over and we have something.....
The question is 'who is we?' Is it the individual programmer or a company who wants to make tons of money on their apps? It seems from the research that Oracle has plenty of individuals saying they want it but is having a hard time getting assurance from enterprises that it would be adopted.
Also as others have said, email him and voice your reasons, they WANT to do it, I think they are scared no one is going to want it, which again seems a little ... If we make ourselves heard we can hopefully bring forth change!!!
Before the rally cry, you first need to convince folks that it matters and is worth waiting for.
Jay Orsaw wrote:Also isn't there a way to increase the libraries Delvik uses? I mean we create Java Libraries ourselves and import them as "extension libraries" so couldn't they do it on Delvik?
Do they not care?
...and who is to blame?
Steve
Pat Farrell wrote:
Paul Anilprem wrote:Developing code for parallel processing in Java is hard? Compared to what? To languages that are so cryptic that only a Phd holder can use them?
Compared to languages that hide the complexity for the programmer. Nearly all functional languages do this. Some hybrid languages (Scala, etc.) do this. My problem with multi-core code in Java is simple: Java has the tools (locks, mutex, semaphores) that can be used to write thread safe code, but it exposes them to the application programmer, the ones without PhDs. Its simple to write code in Java that looks like it works...
No more Blub for me, thank you, Vicar.
chris webster wrote: I doubt we'll see Scala + Akka as a practical option on Android any time soon, but it illustrates how we might eventually do things on a mobile JVM (or Dalvik) without Java.
Steve Luke wrote:
Jay Orsaw wrote:Also isn't there a way to increase the libraries Delvik uses? I mean we create Java Libraries ourselves and import them as "extension libraries" so couldn't they do it on Delvik?
Sure, you can add more libraries by providing JARs that get compiled to dex code. But the graphics libraries are very different - they rely a lot on native code. So you can't just include the Swing classes in a JAR and compile them and expect them to work. There would be requirements to re-write the native part of the code. Delvik has a native interface now too, so even that might be possible (I haven't looked and the UI support for it yet...) but there is a significant difference in philosophy in the user interface. It looks like it is hard enough to translate from one to the other that Oracle doesn't want to take ownership and no one else is motivated to do so.
Do they not care?
Who is they? Oracle? They probably care which is why they keep teasing it and trying to keep your hopes up. They just don't care enough to put money into it. Google, MS, Apple? Probably not, they have good solutions right now.
...and who is to blame?
Placing blame is usually useless, but since this Meaningless Drivel, I'll allow it :P
I saw a presentation at JavaOne that included information on how to bundle your Java/JavaFX app for the Apple store, so that's doable today.
As far as Android/iOS support, I spoke with a couple of Oracle people informally (and verified if they would not have a problem with me sharing what was said to me by them), and they say they have the JRE and JavaFX running on both devices/OSs in the labs, but the management has not made a decision yet if they want to go down that route or not. Worries about eating into their other profit centers (ADF, etc.), and if there was truly any real (vs. just talking about it) demand for iOS/Android support.
So I'd suggest making your voices heard to Oracle, if you think being able to write a JavaFX app on Windows, Mac, Linux, micro-hardware, AND iOS / Android, would be a good thing or not. Personally, I think that would be a game changer and a no-brainer.
Jay Orsaw wrote:What's the point of lab tests if you're not going to release it..
Bear Bibeault wrote:Hundreds, perhaps thousands, of things are tested in labs for every one that ends up making it to a real product.
Pat Farrell wrote:"He's dead, Jim"
The situation seems ripe for a disurptive technology that can provide WORA for mobile.
Deepak Bala wrote:
. ... The app experience also suffers....
The only pragmatic way I see to have WORA for mobile is for one player to eclipse all the others.
ankur rathi wrote:Not Java, but Oracle's ADF claims to provide WORA thing for mobiles (Android, iOS).
http://www.oracle.com/technetwork/developer-tools/adf/overview/adf-mobile-096323.html
While I haven't used ADF much but I think it could be good for utility types of apps (like banking apps, ticket booking apps) which has basic UI, surface some information and basic transactional in nature...
I don't think it can be used for games, hi-fi UI apps...
Still looks promising to me for Enterprises - and it's from Oracle too (given the fact that big organizations trust mostly two vendors: IBM and Oracle)...
No more Blub for me, thank you, Vicar.
Pat Farrell wrote:
Deepak Bala wrote:
We will never get there. EVER. There are a couple of good reasons for this.
...
. ... The app experience also suffers....
The only pragmatic way I see to have WORA for mobile is for one player to eclipse all the others.
The poor app experience is why WORA was a failure from the start. That whole minimal common subset....
We had one player eclipsing all others on the desktop: Windows. Sun's major press behind WORA was to let folks run on Windows and Macs and Sun. They failed.
While today we have only two players, IOS and Android, there are two others that might become players: Windows Phone and Ubuntu for Phone. Both of these last two seem to have well thought out UI designs, but currently have zero market traction. It simply is not in Apple's nor Google's interest to encourage WORA, they want the lock-in. Its not clear that they really care about third party developers, they want you to use their mail, browser, map, and stores. Eco-system lock-in, which admittedly, was exactly what Sun was fighting when they created the WORA marketing spin.
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Paul Anilprem wrote:Java, on the other hand, seems to have lost its place in the mobile world for sure. JavaScript and HTML 5 have taken over its throne.
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