Scott Winterbourne wrote:I for one am going to hold off on any criticism until I know more.
Scott Winterbourne wrote:what got you started in it, and what gets you excited about it
Scott Winterbourne wrote:I think the motivation will build for everybody to read the documentation for more information.
Alexey Bezrodnov wrote:In fact the motivation in a form of excitement is a short living thing. I think it is experience that people can get here. And excitement part waits ahead of us when the system will be able to run Tomcat, for example.
Alexey Bezrodnov wrote:I am not feeling bad when there is some reasonable critics.
Scott Winterbourne wrote:You do have to remember though that everybody on these forums have many many other things going on. They are working full time, have families, school, their own personal or open source projects.
Yes, I agree. I'll try to improve start page.
Scott Winterbourne wrote:Once people have bought into this project, THEN the motivation will be working toward the end result
Paul Clapham wrote:I apologize for not being a reasonable critic
Scott Winterbourne wrote:I think there is potential in this project (if for nothing else, a way to experiment to find new ways of doing things)
Winston Gutkowski wrote:but we want to see concrete information on how one would use it before we can make a judgement.
Alexey Bezrodnov wrote:System notice - start page has been updated. Any ideas?
Winston Gutkowski wrote:A couple ...
Winston (son of an English teacher )
Maxim Karvonen wrote:How would you implement real-time priority for some pieces of code?
Maxim Karvonen wrote:So you can't use same approaches to JVM implementations as you use for the common java.
Maxim Karvonen wrote:Standard TCP/IP stack uses delays to trim transmission speed.
Maxim Karvonen wrote:And one small hint. This question is not about thread/process schedulers. This question is about GC.
Maxim Karvonen wrote:Which memory mode (flat, virtual, segmented) do you use?
Maxim Karvonen wrote:Do you plan to support any kind of virtual memory to allow applications (and system) to exceed physical amount of memory?
Maxim Karvonen wrote:In a classical approach you usually operate with a continuous memory regions. But in java you have no such regions, you have objects with many references. So providing proper memory-locking API can be very tricky but is unavoidable on a current hardware.
Maxim Karvonen wrote:I have seen a "new operator" somewhere inside a keyboard driver. It wasn't in the constructor. And it wasn't in a try/catch block.
Maxim Karvonen wrote:There are different approaches to resource management on a system level.
Maxim Karvonen wrote:Which one would you choose?
Maxim Karvonen wrote:Can you write a more real-world driver using any of the approaches?
Maxim Karvonen wrote:Would it be convenient for other java developers?
Maxim Karvonen wrote:I am not criticizing your project.
Yes, pictures are nice. But while there are no pictures (I hope they will be some day), what do you think about reading just 9 lines of text in the content table under 'Architecture' topic? Yes, there are also 7 nested lines, and in total we get 16 lines, but may be it is not so hard to read even 16 short lines of text? And after clicking on the reference in the table of contents you will see not only plain text, but also a bit of bulleted lists. I know, the list is not as fancy as picture, but if there would be a picture with the same words as in the list and with differently colored rectangles - would it be more useful?
Jayesh A Lalwani wrote:Pictures are universal, and interesting. Words are confusing and boring.
Alexey Bezrodnov wrote:One more point - with Android, for example, you can do many cool things and there are a lot of nicely looking pictures about it. But ... Do you understand the Android? ... And if you don't - was those happy pictures of any help for the Android understanding?
And once more about it. If the only question that bothers you after reading some text is 'what's that all about?', then, first, you should ask yourself about your motivation.
That's exactly what I want to say - amount of fancy pictures just doesn't matter.
Ulf Dittmer wrote:Google's Android documentation does not contain a whole lot of images (except screenshots in the GUI section, for obvious reasons)
Sometime. However, inclusion of pictures is not baned forever from jEmbryoS documentation.
Ulf Dittmer wrote:but the ones it does contain most definitely help understanding.
I see the point in your words. It was unnoticed by me. The point is - all complaining readers just do not see a big picture of a software world. The first thing for them to read about is The Computer. It is really missed subject! And it really worth to read once more about it. The next subject all busy readers should be interested in is The Operating System. It is another very enlightening subject many Java developers passed by without notice. And only if there is a minimal background in the computer science, only then the subject of Java OS will bring you something really useful.
Ulf Dittmer wrote:If I'm interested to learn what X is about, and start reading about it like you describe, and still find myself not knowing what X is after spending some amount of time on it
But the system is really simple! However, the sound foundation for your understanding of such really simple systems is not built yet. Please, consider reading some information from the links above. But if there is no drive in your mind when an information requires some thoughts, then I just can not help you, sorry.
Ulf Dittmer wrote:But what almost killed my motivation even to read those short sections was "A simple system delivers easy entrance path for all interested developers and increases the system popularity." I find both parts unlikely, but more importantly, it makes it sound like a major consideration of the architecture were pragmatic aspects rather than technical merit - not something I would consider a solid (or interesting, although that's subjective) foundation for a project as complex as this one.
Alexey Bezrodnov wrote:The point is - all complaining readers just do not see a big picture of a software world.
Yes, it's focus is on the operating system world. It's not a usual place for programmers to play at. But the whole picture without an operating system is really incomplete. Because when somebody's concern is only about how to show something on a web page or to get something from a database the whole picture is effectively excluded from the view. It's just bothering details that are not very useful for displaying some data on a web page. But there are a bit different world of 'developers for developers'. They create databases, application and web servers, browsers and other user interfaces. And all of a sudden - many of them write their systems in Java. And all those people are the main benefit gainers from new technologies like Java Operating System. Unfortunately there was just one such person until now, who was trying to understand the jEmbryoS applicability for a system development. That's why I am saying about a missing big picture.
Winston Gutkowski wrote:Oddly enough, that was one of the things I was thinking about your idea - it seems too narrowly focused to me.
As I understand the senior stuff is just about getting the whole picture. If you feel aggrieved when I'm saying about missed picture then, please, pay attention to the following - may be it's not you that I was saying about? Or may be there really are some blind spots even in your picture? I, personally, never think I have a whole picture and then I will never offence if somebody supposes I have missed some part of the picture. However, I have my job positions on more than senior levels.
Winston Gutkowski wrote:And I'm by NO means the "senior" here.
Alexey Bezrodnov wrote:Yes, it's focus is on the operating system world...
If you want to connect everything you know about pictures to my words above - it's up to you to invent a name. But even if we mix all concepts in order to respect your wish, then again I can name the UML stuff and all the like just a fancy pictures in case of primitive collecting all the classes in one long sheet. Or do you have an example of very informative UML which can replace just a simple list in case of high level architectural design?
Jayesh A Lalwani wrote:Design diagrams are "fancy pictures", now?
Winston Gutkowski wrote:it's based on the notion (unless I've completely misconstrued this discussion) that a Java-based OS is necessarily a good thing.
Winston Gutkowski wrote:And while I can certainly understand the appeal of a layer of indirection that allows some sort of "commonOS" to be loaded on various different machines that provides "suppliers" with an "Operating System" that presents a common face to the world, I fear you have an awful lot of inertia and legacy to get past before it can become a reality; not the least of which is the different interpretation of something as simple as a 'newline'.
Winston Gutkowski wrote:The whole point of Java is that it is platform-independent, so it's simply not very good at dealing with machine (or OS, or driver) -centric stuff such as printing or handling proprietary document formats like Word.
Winston Gutkowski wrote:Use Word. It may not be Java, but it's actually the program that was written to deal with Word documents.
Alexey Bezrodnov wrote:The printing is absolutely possible to wrap into a Java library and having such library in effect to reach the platform independence goal. And the Word document handlers are already here - it is possible to work with the Word documents in Java on any platform.
Alexey Bezrodnov wrote:But if the preferred user environment is the Linux? Such advice just closes the door in the way of using Word documents.
Winston Gutkowski wrote:Have you actually dealt with either?
Winston Gutkowski wrote:There are things that you simply cannot do (especially with Excel), because the port is partial, and based on legacy code of programs that Microsoft guards very closely.
Winston Gutkowski wrote:You've obviously never heard of Wine
Winston Gutkowski wrote:You've obviously never heard of Wine - although I have to admit, I've never tried something that low-level with it.
Tim Cooke wrote:Here's my understanding of how a normal Java application is created and run.
- Write Java code
- Compile it into bytecode using a JDK
- Run bytecode using a JRE that is running on my OS
Tim Cooke wrote:So for a 100% Java OS. Here's where I get stuck
- Write 100% Java OS in Java
- Compile it into bytecode using a JDK
- Run bytecode how?
The JRE is a platform specific piece of software who's task is to translate the bytecode into something that my OS running the JRE can understand. But if there's no underlying OS then what runs the Java OS?
Tim Cooke wrote:From reading your other thread over on osdev.org it sounds like you have written something yourself that will translate/compile that bytecode down to machine instructions? (Just for x86 it seems)
Tim Cooke wrote:If this is the case then have you solved the "legacy hardware" problem at all as we'll still have to go and write compilers/interpreters for all of those platforms anyway?