Clash of Civilizations!!

[Jason Menard]

Originally posted by <Pakka Desi>:
2. Son of a Java programmer may become a C++ programmer or a hotdog vendor. But son of a christian will always be a christian. And since the son does not have any idea about why his father converted (who may be converted due to change in heart), he, by the acts of pastors and mullahs gets intolerant of his own origins. This problem gets compounded generation by generation. I suspect that you don't have any idea what I am talking about. That's why I said before, one solution does not fit all and your measurments do not apply everywhere.

Suspect all you wish. Religion is a conscious choice, not a matter of genetics. While children may be brought up in a specific religion, that does not mean they are not free to question those beliefs when they are old enough to. And sometimes such questioning may lead them to abandon the religion they grew up in. Sometimes such questioning may lead them to other religions which seem to make more sense to them. Well, at least this is the case in a truly free society.

[R K Singh]

Originally posted by Ashok Manayangath:
I am sure Ravish was asking about so called 'random relationship' related 'teenage pregnancy' which is always considered as a social evil like drugs or smoking.

"Teenage pregnancy in U.S.A. more than double rate in Europe."
And again, go and find out from some survey how many are married in out of that 8% in US?
again I wanted to say, which is common in US might not be common in other places.

[San Su]

Originally posted by Ravish Kumar:
[QB]
How many times you can avoid and not respond to foolish & twisted arguments.

I agree with you Ravish. Eventhough I tempted to participate these kind of discussions several time I restricted myself not too. This is the bad habit of most of the Indians.
This is the first time I am participating in a public debate. I dont know whether it will be the last one..

[R K Singh]

Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
And why can't both statements be true. Yes, it your right to stir up hatred. But then you must be willing to accept the moral consequences of your speech.

If someone kills me because you hate me then will you be responsible for my murder ??
what are you saying TP ??

[R K Singh]

Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
You are joking right? Why can't they convert? I have several friends who left Christianity to become Buddhists. I also know of many Christians who have become Moslem.

Dear bro,
We are talking about Indian society point of view.
Not US point of view.
Conversion might be a common thing in US but in India its not seen as a good thing.

[R K Singh]

Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
And did it turn you into a Christian?

FYI, I have also studied in missionary school and all fourth class employee were Christian.
They could not turn me in to Christian but thanks to them, I can say to you that its not that I dont know what is Christianity.
But what is being done in the name of Christianity is not good in India as I have also read Bible.

[Mapraputa Is]

Pakka Desi:
My objective was never to convince them. It's a waste of energy. My objective was to encourage Indians to be assertive without shame. <...>
And another thing is, we are responsible for ourselves. Who cares if other people do not agree with us?? Did they care when Hindus were massacared in Pak or B'Desh? No. Why would they? It's none of their business. Similarly, they have no business in preaching us the virtues of freedom of speech etc.
We know for a fact that missionaries and mullahs are creating trouble in our country. That's all that matters. Based on our observation we can take whatever action we deem necessary. No need to prove to anybody except other Indians.
https://coderanch.com/t/37667/md/Clash-Civilizations
Jason Menard:
More importantly though, why the liberal fixation on the number of allies we can collect? Does it make us "more right" if more people agree with us? Does it make us "wrong" if these other countries don't share our interests? Why on earth would we think that we should ask the permission of countries like France, Russia, and China so that we may carry out our national security objectives? Bottom line, if we truly believe we are right in this Iraq thing, why should we let other nations, who often act counter to our interests anyway, keep us from doing the "right" thing? Why should we let these other countries (I'm not talking about France, Russia, China, and the UK in this particular case), many of whom are hostile towards us or have opposing interests, have any influence on us whatsoever simply because they want to take this opportunity to rally to the flag of Kofi "Neville Chamerlain" Annan and seek to influence the foreign policy of a super power? Screw them.
Whatever the right course of action is, we do it because it is the right course of action to take. We don't do it because we get a bunch of other nations to convince us one way or another. So if we have one ally or 100 allies of convenience, as long as we are doing what is "right", that's all that matters.
https://coderanch.com/t/37627/md/Good-week-Democrat
Is it only me who found some crying similarities here?
[ October 24, 2002: Message edited by: Mapraputa Is ]

[R K Singh]

Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
If I go around talking about how evil Indians are. If I vote for parties that will drive Indians out of the US. If I write articles about Indians and how they are a plague upon the nation. Then if anyone kills an Indian because of these views then I am morally (not legally) responsible for it.
Political parties that gain power by stirring up hatred are morally responsible for any violence caused by that hatred. Anyone who votes for that party is also morally responsible.

But if suppose Indians are really bad but because you are educated man you are trying to deal with Indian with in the limit of laws.
Now if an uneducated man, who sees killing as the only solution, goes and kills one Indian.
Are you responsible for his murder ???

[R K Singh]

Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
I don't care if it isn't "seen" as a good thing. That is quite irrelevant. There are many things that are seen as good things in your country which aren't good. So the question isn't what is "seen" as a good thing but rather why it is seen that way and why you feel it is your right to interfere in it.

Sorry, I take my words back.
Conversion might be a common thing in US but its not common in India.
Forget the reason.....
and FYI, we have freedom of changing our religion.
And and we also have freedom of speech but we use it for constructive work.
[ October 24, 2002: Message edited by: Ravish Kumar ]

[San Su]

Originally posted by Mapraputa Is:
Jason wrote :
blah bhah..
if we truly believe we are right in this Iraq thing, why should we let other nations, who often act counter to our interests anyway, keep us from doing the "right" thing? ... Screw them.
Whatever the right course of action is, we do it because it is the right course of action to take. We don't do it because we get a bunch of other nations to convince us one way or another. So if we have one ally or 100 allies of convenience, as long as we are doing what is "right", that's all that matters. [/b]
https://coderanch.com/t/37627/md/Good-week-Democrat
Is it only me who found some crying similarities here?
[ October 24, 2002: Message edited by: Mapraputa Is ][/QB]

he he he.. . It is american politics you know.. It doesnt apply to any other community or nation.. you know.. We shouldnt ask who "define" the "right" or "wrong" when they do, you know..

[Jason Menard]

"Right" as based on morals. If you believe oppressing people is morally "right", then at least say as much.
As has been already said, there are such things as moral absolutes.
[ October 24, 2002: Message edited by: Jason Menard ]

[Mapraputa Is]

Originally posted by Thomas Paul:

If I go around talking about how evil Indians are. If I vote for parties that will drive Indians out of the US. If I write articles about Indians and how they are a plague upon the nation. Then if anyone kills an Indian because of these views then I am morally (not legally) responsible for it.
Political parties that gain power by stirring up hatred are morally responsible for any violence caused by that hatred. Anyone who votes for that party is also morally responsible.

Tom, this analogy doesn't work. To tell that somebody is an Indian doesn't teall a lot about this person. S/he can be good or bad, smart or stupid, he can make money robbing banks or writing code in Java. People here are against Christian missionaries based on their activities, not on who they are. It's what they are doing (forced conversion in particular) - this is what so many people here are opposed to. I do not remember anybody here saying "let's get rid of all those missionaries because they are evil."

[R K Singh]

Originally posted by Jason Menard:
"Right" as based on morals. If you believe oppressing people is morally "right", then at least say as much.
As has been already said, there are such things as moral absolutes.
[Edited by Jason.....]
[Ravish][/Ravish]

If you believe that buying a religion is conversion then I cant help you.

[Jason Menard]

Originally posted by Ravish Kumar:

If you believe that buying a religion is conversion then I cant help you.

Never said I did. It is not conversion. If somebody chooses to say they will convert to a certain religion in order to receive some compensation though, I really don't care, that's their business. That doesn't mean they're converted though.

[San Su]

Originally posted by Jason Menard:
"Right" as based on morals. If you believe oppressing people is morally "right", then at least say as much.
As has been already said, there are such things as moral absolutes.
[ October 24, 2002: Message edited by: Jason Menard ]

I didnt ask anybody "Right" is based on "what" question. And, I dont believe oppressing people is morally "right". Couple hundreds post back, Somebody asked somebody about "who" "define" the "right" question.

[Mapraputa Is]

To clarify my position, I have very little knowledge about India and do not generally enjoy talking about something I do not know. That it's hard for outsiders to understand what's going on in a country - I can assert this "without any reservation" as ME would say. I do not feel superior enough to teach Indian people how they should live, and what their understanding of "freedom" should be. Not until I fully understand how they came to where they stand anyway.
I am just amazed by amount of misunderstand and hostility in this thread for which I do not have any good explanations.
[ October 24, 2002: Message edited by: Mapraputa Is ]

[Mark Milan]

Topics covered so far;
- (teenage) sex
- religion
- politics
I'd say that about covers it.

[San Su]

Originally posted by Mapraputa Is:

Tom, this analogy doesn't work. To tell that somebody is an Indian doesn't teall a lot about this person. S/he can be good or bad, smart or stupid, he can make money robbing banks or writing code in Java. People here are against Christian missionaries based on their activities, not on who they are. It's what they are doing (forced conversion in particular) - this is what so many people here are opposed to. I do not remember anybody here saying "let's get rid of all those missionaries because they are evil."

Thank god.. and Thanks Mapraputa Is. Atleast one non-indian understand what the other Indians are trying to convey here. Thank you somuch..

[R K Singh]

Originally posted by Jason Menard:
Never said I did. It is not conversion. If somebody chooses to say they will convert to a certain religion in order to receive some compensation though, I really don't care, that's their business. That doesn't mean they're converted though.

Thanks for understanding scenario.
Now I will try to explain what happens after this drama of conversion because of money/aid/...
Now as I told you its not common in India to change your society/religion and 99.99% follow the religion of their parents.
Now the son of that converted person will be christian.
I cant explain more than that... I think everyone has explained this thing.
That doesn't mean they're converted though.
And thats what we are trying to tell our people that its not a Conversion. While telling this if some fool goes and burns some innocent people you cant blame all who support act of so called forced conversion.

[San Su]

Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
I don't see that much hostility here. It certainly isn't like those 9/11 threads that we had to close!

True, only couple (or <4-5) are branded as "intolerent" and anti chiristians. And only one poor community is branded as "unsecular"

[San Su]

Originally posted by Mark Milan:
Topics covered so far;
- (teenage) sex
- religion
- politics
I'd say that about covers it.

And add "secular" in this topic. Jason conveniently ignores posts related to that topic (he knows what he said was pure stupidity)
oopss.. Is "secular" is subtopic of "religion"?
[ October 24, 2002: Message edited by: Sankar Subbiah ]
[ October 24, 2002: Message edited by: Sankar Subbiah ]

[Anonymous]

Originally posted by Jason Menard:
"Right" as based on morals. If you believe oppressing people is morally "right", then at least say as much.

Don't dramatize your point. In fact, you don't have a point. Who said that oppressing people is moraly right? I, from the first post, am saying that there are evils in our society such as castism that we definitely need to take care of.
If you equate stopping missionaries from convertion people fraudulently to oppression, let's not discuss any more.

As has been already said, there are such things as moral absolutes.

Moral absolutes....defined by whome? You? US?

[R K Singh]

Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
Some of you claimed that India is secular. Then others said that India is a Hindu nation telling us to go look up Hindustan. It can't be both. Do you want your nation to be secular or Hindu?

We Hindustanis love to call India as Hindustan.

[Anonymous]

Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
Some of you claimed that India is secular. Then others said that India is a Hindu nation telling us to go look up Hindustan. It can't be both. Do you want your nation to be secular or Hindu?

By definition any body living in Hindusthan is a Hindu. So, a muslim living in India is also a Hindu.
Now, there is a difference between Hindu religion and Hindu. There is no Hindu religion. There is a religion named "Sanatan Dharma" which is commonly refered to as Hindu dharma or Hinduism.
As I said before, you will find it difficult to accept but the fact is India is an extremely complex society. You cannot comprehend the dynamics of that society without actually living there. Not that is being complex is good or bad, but it takes a lot more than reading books to understand it.
There is a saying which literaly means, "shepherding while riding a camel". Which is what you are doing. You are sitting on a high horse and preaching your set of "absolute" morals, which does not make any sense.

[R K Singh]

Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
Why do you care if people convert to Christianity to make money? I would think you would wish to applaud their good capitalist sense for taking advantage of the silly Christians.

Do you think morally it is right?
AW I am not a moral police.
When a person gets converted becasue og money, he sells his whole generation as his son will be Chritian also. though he might not like Jesus or anyone.
And as I told you, its not common in India to change religion. His son will remain Christian even he does not like it.

[Anonymous]

Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
I think that is it in a nutshell. We see it as oppression. As long as the missionaries aren't using violence then you really have no business stopping them.

May be your definition of freedom allows fraud if it is not combined with violence (physical force). Mine doesn't.

[San Su]

Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
Some of you claimed that India is secular. Then others said that India is a Hindu nation telling us to go look up Hindustan. It can't be both. Do you want your nation to be secular or Hindu?

What do you call about US? Somebody said it is a chiristian country. Is it secular or not?
Ok that apart, the word "Hindustan" means "Land of Hindus", where is unsecular in this name? That is what I said go and lookup the meaning. There is a whole lot of difference between "Land of Hindus" and "Land of Hindus only". hmm.. If you care to look up the truth, you wont ask this kind of silly questions (BTW, This is not the name given by BJP or VHP)

[R K Singh]

Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
Good question. Don't you think there are some moral absolutes that are beyond defintion? Don't you think there are some rights, some guiding principals that every peoples should follow? Perhaps the UN's Universal Declaration of Human Rights is a place to start looking for them.
http://www.un.org/Overview/rights.html

so what do you wnat to say ?? I have not read link.

[Anonymous]

Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
Good question. Don't you think there are some moral absolutes that are beyond defintion? Don't you think there are some rights, some guiding principals that every peoples should follow? Perhaps the UN's Universal Declaration of Human Rights is a place to start looking for them.
http://www.un.org/Overview/rights.html

Article 18.
Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship and observance.
I do not see any right to propogate a religion by fraudulent means.

[R K Singh]

Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
So what? Is it some horrible thing to be a Christian? Maybe you should work on creating a society where people do things because they believe in them not because their father tells them to.

Thats what you wont understand.
We are taught that if your father wants you to live in Jungle for 14 yrs. I am suppose to go and live without asking any question. (Its a very ideal case. But its true that this is what we are taught.)
For you it might be ridiculous OR something...
and I cant help you if you are not taught to obey your elders OR father

[Vin Kris]

phew !!! this discussion is most intriguing. You have to read the whole damn discussion to even find what the central argument is all about.
Don't mind me, but would just like to see you guys halt for a minute and realize that you have a problem with each other. There seems to be growing resentment between candidates. Most of the posts are conceptually about missionaries and stuff. but in reality, it seems to me that you guys are just trying to show each other who is the cleverest in arguments... both in direct debate and twisting statements.
oops... did I just bring the attack of the titans upon me?? !!!

[R K Singh]

Originally posted by Vin Kris:
phew !!! this discussion is most intriguing. You have to read the whole damn discussion to even find what the central argument is all about.

Vin Kris .... nice name
Though Gurus are someone else but still .. welcome to MD

[San Su]

Originally posted by Ravish Kumar:

Thats what you wont understand.
We are taught that if your father wants you to live in Jungle for 14 yrs. I am suppose to go and live without asking any question. (Its a very ideal case. But its true that this is what we are taught.)
For you it might be ridiculous OR something...
and I cant help you if you are not taught to obey your elders OR father

He would not understand that. He is arguing from his point of view and looking at what is happening in his socity.
You can not equate orange and apple.
If the missionaries can brainwash (whatever you may call..) even an educated person by showing "miracles" in a public media, Do you think the poor little fellows (kids of the poors) have any chance to understand what religion his father was following before he got converted? :roll:

[Vin Kris]

I am an Indian. Then I am a Hindu. Murdering the missionaries is in-excusable. wrong. I do not support VHP.
I just wanted to lay out some facts. Maybe there could be a better understanding of the complex situations in India. Only the darker side - for the sake of the non-Indian debatees.
With over 5000 yrs of recorded history and current population of 1 billion - India has so many religions, so many customs, so many languages, so many beliefs, superstitions and myths. Just imagine such a huge population that is following wisdom of thousands of years - which unfortunately is not understood but mis-construed in many locations.
My roots are from a village in India, though I grew up in a modern city. Some of the customs are actually purely scientific (thousands of yrs of wisdom) and some ridiculous (few may have been valid then). I receive flak from the old generation (3 generations back - yes they are still alive) when I question and do not follow.
But you have to realise the mind-set of the people. They have grown up in these customs and when something changes drastically - there is a threat to the culture. Being in the modern era - We ridicule the past. Our mind-set is different from theirs. For example - we ridicule untouchability/castism and you ridicule slavery. We agree on this.
Similarly, they have a different mind-set. All their life, they have seen a marked boundaries between people. The customs and pratices followed in the past (I repeat, they have scientific reasons) have become a different subset - varaiation of the hindu religion in the present. The pratices have been passed from one generation to the next without the reasons - so they are now superstitions, myths - A dogma. Imagine the situation when the converts start behaving in a different customs. when the boundaries are breached - god forbid - they eat beef. EGADS!!! SACRILEGE !!! Beef is served in Indian hotels - but when a cow is killed in this situation, then the politics come into play. Add to that the narrow mind-set of the old generations. (please note that this is just ONE of the many examples that I have chosen. There are numerous.). Imagine when the missionaries encouraged by the initial converts directly and through the 1st set of converts, try to convert some more. They accidentally meet a passionately religious person - This is bound to push somebody over the edge.
Jason/Thomas.... You think these mind-sets can be changed?? You cannot even fathom the difficulty... next to impossible.
Compare that to the present generation Indians. We are different than the older generations. We do NOT agree with the older generation. We eat together, play together, study together, go to the same temples, schools, work-place, etc, etc. Branding all the hindus in India as extremists and intolerants is ridiculous. Few of the perceptions of my country-men debating here are flawed and I do NOT agree with them. I have shown you a contradiction in just 5 indians. How many contradictions are possible in 1 billion? By what basis can you categorize the whole hindu community? Our governments are trying.. and believe me.. very desperately to improve the poverty situation in India. The 1st problem the politicians face is political problems. Then corruption. It's just that it does not feature among the top-most in the priority list. You wanna know what is? Just like U.S.. national security.
Conversion is NOT a solution to poverty. The only solution to poverty is its eradication. If people want to convert - its up to them. "Let man pray what god he will" (from some movie). God is one. But sometimes it becomes a threat to the social security. Consequence - barbaric acts by humans against humans.
Realize that when you sometimes say "why?" or "why not?", you are questioning the thousand years of Indian history. You are questioning because you read only about the crimes - thats media, tell world about the crimes & atrocities. But these are acts of a few fanatics, anti-socials and politicians with a vendetta. But to say that it is a "favourite passtime" !!!
If you want me to elaborate... I will.. gladly.. but you gotta start buying memory again. I'm serious.

[Jason Menard]

Originally posted by Sankar Subbiah:
He would not understand that. He is arguing from his point of view and looking at what is happening in his socity.

Yes, the poor ignorant outsiders cannot hope to understand your terribly complex society. :roll: It doesn't matter that basic human rights and freedoms transcend locale, we don't want to talk about that, do we.

If the missionaries can brainwash (whatever you may call..) even an educated person by showing "miracles" in a public media, Do you think the poor little fellows (kids of the poors) have any chance to understand what religion his father was following before he got converted? :roll:

1. If a person (educated or otherwise) chooses to believe he is witnessing real miracles, that is his perogative. In fact, even though I do not believe they are miracles, I might be wrong. Bottom line is it's not my position to dictate what he can believe in.
2. Here you go again placing yourself in a position over the poor and uneducated. You just can't see it that they have a mind of their own and they have the ability to make their own choices. Who has given you the right to make decisions for these people? Who has given you the right to deny them a choice? What is so special about you that you know better than they do what is best for them?
I've asked before but the questions were ignored so I will ask again. What is it you fear about a person changing his religion away from Hinduism? Are you afraid that your religion will eventually disapper as a result? Are you afraid that the lower classes will rise up and you will lose prestige/position in your society?

[R K Singh]

Originally posted by Jason Menard:
I've asked before but the questions were ignored so I will ask again. What is it you fear about a person changing his religion away from Hinduism? Are you afraid that your religion will eventually disapper as a result? Are you afraid that the lower classes will rise up and you will lose prestige/position in your society?

I have questions for you Jason :
1. What do you think, why do these missioanries want others to convert in to Christianity ?
2. I want to rule your country, You will have all freedom what you have today. But make me King/Ruler of your country.
Does it matter to you?(if yes, then why? You have everything what you have today....)

I dont remember, there is one word in english and I read that word here in MD only which means squatting a land by converting all people in other religion.
English is your native language, can you tell me that word ?
If you want to see the things in that angle then why not .............
[ October 24, 2002: Message edited by: Ravish Kumar ]

[Jason Menard]

Originally posted by Sankar Subbiah:
And add "secular" in this topic. Jason conveniently ignores posts related to that topic (he knows what he said was pure stupidity)
oopss.. Is "secular" is subtopic of "religion"?

What are you talking about?
You people have proudly proclaim that you live in a secular nation. Just about every western nation and many many others are secular as well, such as Japan and Korea in asia.
First, governments in secular nations have no laws which give advantage to any particular religion or disadvantage to any particular religion. This seems to hold true in all other secular nations, is it true in India? Anti-conversion laws that have been passed in many states indicate that this is not true.
Second, the citizens of secular nations do not go around dictating what religions people can choose for themselves. Unless they are a bigot or something, they don't care what a person's religion is. They don't get all up in arms because someone changes their religion, or because someone tries to convince them to join their religion. It is a non-issue. They are free to make their own choice. Does all of this hold true in India?
So do you guys have your own definition for what a secular state is that is different than the rest of the world? Secular states do not have anti-conversion laws. Secular states do not make conversion illegal or ban it. For that matter, no free nation does those things.
If as you claim these things are incompatible with Indian (I mean Hindu) society, then why would you go around touting yourselves as being a freedom loving secular democracy? Why would you pretend to be something you're not?

[Jason Menard]

Originally posted by Ravish Kumar:
I have questions for you Jason :

Yet you don't give me the courtesy of answering my questions? Are you unable to? I will give you the courtesy you have not shown me.
[b1. What do you think, why do these missioanries want others to convert in to Christianity ?[/b]
The purpose of missionaries is two-fold. It is to bring aid to the needy, and to spread the word of God. They want people to convert to Christianity because they believe in their religion and what their religion tells them.
2. I want to rule your country, You will have all freedom what you have today. But make me King/Ruler of your country.
Does it matter to you?(if yes, then why? You have everything what you have today....)
I have no idea what you are talking about. If you want to "rule" the US, run for President.

[b]I dont remember, there is one word in english and I read that word here in MD only which means squatting a land by converting all people in other religion.[/qb]

I can't think of a word with a definition similar to that.

[Vin Kris]

What is it you fear about a person changing his religion away from Hinduism?

I too would like to know the answer. is there anybody here who fears this? I don't think so. I believe the problem here is with means & not the result.

Are you afraid that your religion will eventually disapper as a result?

I believe this is a popular sentiment among a few currently. That Indian culture is being influenced by the western culture. Result - a bunch of Indians who are losing their roots. But this isn't a problem.

Are you afraid that the lower classes will rise up and you will lose prestige/position in your society?

Please. Gimme a break. Any Indian who still believes in this is a religious extremist. I haven't met any such people in the past 25 years. (well ok.. i guess the 1st 10-12 yrs of childhood cannot be included)

[Jason Menard]

Originally posted by Vin Kris:
a lot of good stuff

Good post. I don't disagree with anything you say and I feel I can appreciate your point of view. What you say is very well reasoned and free from frantic paranoia and hype. I don't believe anyone here has made any generalizations about the whole Hindu society, and if it seems that way, my appologies. I understand that progress in the face of history is not always an easy thing, as you have indicated. Yourself and a couple of other Indians who have posted in this thread have admirably demonstrated that these five do not represent your entire society, only one particular view of it.