Java Vs .Net

[vivekkumar sharma]

Hi Rancher,

To make choice between .Net and Java for investing learning time has always remained difficult to me. I am sure, many young programmers must be finding themselves in a similar situation.
May I ask some of the experienced people on the forum to help with some of their suggestions and any good pointers, based on which the decision shall be made.

It would be good to see some of the comments/experience on the merits of one over the in using them in desktop/server side/middle ware software etc.

Regards
Vivek

PS � Direct me to correct forum if this is not the one

[Stuart Ash]

Obviously, in a Java-based forum, responses to such a question will likely by pro-Java. So take the responses with a grain of salt.

[Scheepers de Bruin]

I have a book, that is written by unconfirmed authors in unconfirmed times with unconfirmed motives, but it is inspired by the Great Programmer Himself!

In the first chapter called "Believe it or go to Hell", it states: Thou shalt not have s3x with non-consenting small furry mammals, or program using .net, or you will be sodomised in your sleep by little yellow norweigian men with ice pics.

No seriously, and I might get flak for this: It is your own preference that makes the difference. If you don't like the programming language you're codeing in, chances are you're not going to be good at it. Try a little of both, and pick the one _YOU_ like best.

[Roy Ben Ami]

Originally posted by Stuart Ash:
Obviously, in a Java-based forum, responses to such a question will likely by pro-Java. So take the responses with a grain of salt.

Actualy, I infiltrate a lot of .NET forums in order to wait for just this question

Kidding aside, Java and J2EE are much better than the Microsoft's copy.

[Jesper de Jong]

> Kidding aside, Java and J2EE are much better than the Microsoft's copy.

Can you explain why? Just saying that Java and J2EE are better isn't going to help the OP a lot.

Both Java and .Net have their pros and cons. With .Net, you are ofcourse tied to one company (Microsoft) and one operating system (Windows) - with J2EE, you can choose from a whole range of application servers from different companies, some of them are even free and very good (like JBoss), and you can run them on any platform you want. A pro of .Net could be that if you need to do Windows-specific things, it would probably be easier than with Java.

For the rest, I can't think of any technical reasons why one would be clearly better than the other.

[vivekkumar sharma]

Hi All,

I am still looking for more convincing answers. I am writing this on Java forum because of my inclination towards Java. But still I get in doubt about my choice because of following reasons that�s why asking for other ranchers Views.

1..Net applications will be more easily deployed and integrate with Windows, which is most widely used Desktop OS.

2.In my opinion MicroSoft is shifting from proprietary based software environments to more open standards, and Sun is shifting to make its technologies more and more friendly to use by developers. BUT still the advantage you get in .Net is, every thing is bundled in one package. Right from IDE, to deployment tools. (You can build and deploy small desktop application to a distributed enterprise solution in Visual Studio).

In java there are heaps and heaps of different editors, frameworks for different things, etc etc. Although the more the choice better it is BUT does not seem to of much use because more options means learning curve for different products and framework and also In practice I think companies have their favorites and they don�t change quite often.Existing of so many frameworks only add to confusion of young programmers,beacuse they are never sure which one they shall learn ,beacuse they donot know which one their prospective employer need.

I have written points in favor of .Net, not because I am anti Java, But these are just my thoughts and I want to get opinions of Java greeks on these.

Which place can be better than JavaRanch for this.Hope too get some answers to get into right direction.

Regards,
Vivek

[Roy Ben Ami]

It is a much debated question and like people said, this is a Java forum so most answers will be pro java.

In my opinion,
The biggest reason not to use .NET is because the MS thing (and it stands for Microsoft Sucks )

Using .NET, like you said, you are confined to Microsoft/Windows regime (putting the Mono project aside).
Java allows your application to run in windows/solaris/linux/unix with no problem.

True, you got more choices out there, but that's the whole idea.
It may seem overwhelming at start, but once you find the right IDE for you
and the right framework, you would feel compfortable with your choice.

Having Microsoft determine everything for you is easier, but limits you as a developer.

Even more, all the .NET stuff costs money (all the good products anyway).
Since you want to develop programs alone, then all the great products you can get in Java tip the hand in our favor (our is for Java people).
Just check the eclipse/netbeans IDE, the JBoss/Sun application servers etc etc...


Roy.

[Adam Richards]

One thing .NET can't do: Develop & debug a server batch application on your desktop before you deploy it to the server. Java is invaluable for that. Once I've got it working on my desktop PC, I can deploy it directly to the server & be guaranteed it will run the first time.

[marc weber]

My bias: Do you want to be part of the problem? Or part of the solution?

Personally, I want nothing to do with MS.

[Ken Blair]

I don't think students and other "new programmers" should be worrying about learning every framework or tool out there. Learn Java's core API's and more importantly learn OOP. You don't know what tools, frameworks or libraries a company is going to use, require or allow. Given a specific company this will probably even vary between specific projects, or even different parts of a project. No matter what, you're going to need to know the core APIs and OOP, so learn those and worry about the rest when you get hired and assigned.

[john ersan]

Now i'm about to finish my graduation project which is about comparing two object oriented programming languages: I picked Java & C#.

While i was developing my project ( A complaint module of a municipality CRM ) i had chance to compare both languages.

Let me start the advantages of C#:

- Visual Studio .NET IDE -> Speeds up the development time.
- MSDN -> really great knowledgebase
- Crystal Report -> really great tool for visual reports

disadvantages of C#:
- Microsoft dependent.

Advantages of Java:
- Platform independent ( but JVM dependent)
- great libaries !!

Disadvantages of Java:
- Slow
- IDE`s are not really good enough ( tried .NetBeans, eclipse,IntelliJ Idea)
- Where the heck is groupbox or checked list box ( couldnt find in swing or awt )
- Difficult to get used after coding in C# ( Why i cant compare Strings with == or != notation, why i have to use a compare method which returns 1 if they are equal )


Conclusion:

Development time for java was 2 times more then C# ( maybe it`s coz of me eh ! )

After i finish java, i'll start to do some software engineering quality tests for both java and C# , i'll give detalits about quality , memory, kloc, etc.. those who wants these information can e-mail me , so i can send a detalited report when i'm done with project )

Good Coding

[Shrinivas Mujumdar]

There is nothing like Good or Bad everything is relative....
Use the technology which suits your application (& client) most.

Shrinivas

[Abhijeet Thacker]

Hi Frndz,

I have been working on both of these technologies for quite a bit long time. To me I feel this kind of decision really depends upon the application under consideration. Most of the times I have selected .net when I need to develop a complex GUI because of ease of application.

When things come to extreme programming Java is more preferable and dependable than tangling with ANY MS technology.

I have been using eclipse for a long time it is as good as IDE for .net.

Still I think we should see more discussion on this issue. Views, contradictions are always welcome

[Roy Ben Ami]

Originally posted by john ersan:
Disadvantages of Java:
- Slow
- IDE`s are not really good enough ( tried .NetBeans, eclipse,IntelliJ Idea)
- Where the heck is groupbox or checked list box ( couldnt find in swing or awt )
- Difficult to get used after coding in C# ( Why i cant compare Strings with == or != notation, why i have to use a compare method which returns 1 if they are equal )

Most of these are wrong.

1) First Java isn't slower than C# (.NET programs) , actually it is slightly faster. I have a link to a benchmark page with detailed comparison between all computer languages but i'm at work at the moment. Later this evening i will add the link in the reply.

2) NetBeans 5.0 and Eclipse 3.1 are great IDE and even better they are Free. I ca'nt see any advantages of Visual Studio, especially with all the plugins available for those IDEs.

3) I can't get used to code in C# after coding in Java. What the hell are those delegates (didn't they say pointers were bad for you?). Why do i need to surround everything with namespace all the time... it is idiotic...

As I can see, you didn't name yet 1 disadvantage that java has.

[Joel McNary]

I will agree that Java typically runs fast these days (except for Swing and trig functions...), but VisualStudio is a fine IDE. (I've always thought that Microsoft had two really good products: VisualStudio and Excel. Note that the OS isn't listed.)

That said, I prefer Java for a variety of reasons (mostly platform independant, better support from the open source community, etc.)

CrystalReports is a good reporting tool, but I have been very unhappy with it since version 9 or 10 when they dropped their C-based API, forcing the use of their Reports Server. This made developing desktop applications more difficult (I believe I attempted it once, and had to do some odd COM programming to get it to work.)

JasperReports is not quite at the feature level of Crystal, but I have found very little that I cannot do in Jasper that I can do in Crystal (conditional formatting is one of them, but Jasper has an official workaround for that)

I, myself, find that I can rapidly develop applications in Java. Of course, I have a few generic libraries that I've written and a tool I've created to abstract most of the annoying development tasks away, so my applications are mostly variations on a theme rather than brand new applications each time.

The one thing about C# that I wish Java had was the ability to implement two interfaces with the same method signature but meant to do different things. Consider this (contrived) example:

public interface Splitter{
    //This splits two objects
    public void cleave();
}
 
public interface Joiner{
    //This joins two objects
    public void cleave();
}
 
public class ComboTool implements Splitter, Joiner{
   public void cleave(){
      //Um, should this split or join two objects?
      //Not sure.  Ambigous
   }
}

In C#, you can do this (I don't know the syntax, but I can write how it would look in Java)

public class ComboTool implements Splitter, Joiner{
   public void Splitter.cleave(){
     //Ah, now I know I'm splitting objects.
   }
 
   public void Joiner.cleave(){
     //Ah, now I know I'm joining objects.
   }
}

And which cleave() method is called when you call it is based on the reference type - if it's referenced as a Joiner and you call cleave(), it will call the Joiner.cleave() method. Likewise, a Splitter reference calls the Splitter.cleave() method. (I'm not sure what happens if the reference type is ComboTool -- perhaps you have to cast it or include it in the call like myComboTool.Splitter.cleave() or some such...)

[Roy Ben Ami]

First of all here is the link i promised:
benchmark

Notice that i was mistaken and it is against c# mono (and not the microsoft one, but let's assume it is the same - if not better ).

In all parameters except one (and it is a big one true) java is faster.
Also note that this is done against 1.4.2 and not Tiger or Mustang which are supposed to be 30-40% faster.

As for the interface thing you mention in C#:

Remember that c# is a java clone with a few enhancements.
It came out 5-7 years after java and copied almost everything (after they faild miserbaly with the J++/J# copy).
It has some great features as you mentioned, but many of them are terrible too.
Every new version of java gets some good things from c# (like the meta data/annonations, autoboxing, enums etc), but every c# version also gets the good stuff from java (static classes and anonymous methods that got introduced in version 2 after the java usage).

Overall, java is the original much better version (hopefully will get even better with Mustang this year), and i see no reason for using the microsoft's clone.
[ January 10, 2006: Message edited by: Roy Ben Ami ]

[Ilja Preuss]

I didn't yet use .NET/C#, but from my point of view, they really are rather close to each other. For someone who also took a look at Smalltalk or Lisp, they really look nearly identical...

So I think the main reason to use .NET is that you want to have great language support for Windows specific features. Use Java if you want to be able to deploy to a big range of different platforms. Use Ruby if you develop web applications.

[vivekkumar sharma]

Hi All,

Thanks for sharing your views

[Layne Lund]

Difficult to get used after coding in C# ( Why i cant compare Strings with == or != notation, why i have to use a compare method which returns 1 if they are equal

This statement is a bit flawed. You don't have to use a compare() method to compare for equality. AND compare() should return 0, not 1, to indicate equality. In fact, many classes in the Java API don't even have a compare() method. Instead, you use the equals() method to compare if two objects are equal. This method returns a simple boolean.

On the other hand, compare() is used when you need a complete ordering of objects. It returns 0 (NOT 1) if two objects are equal and a non-zero value if one object is "less than" or "greater than" the other.

Layne
[ January 11, 2006: Message edited by: Layne Lund ]

[Dave Kairys]

Java Swing isn't as easy to figure out as compared to .NET, due to the far superior IDE in .NET than is currently available for Java. I have used Eclipse and IntelliJ Idea, but they don't compare. Jesper said that Java is platform independent, which is true. However, an app written for the Windows platform will far outweigh the 'general' app, and the same goes for any other platform. In other words, a platform specific language will always surpass a 'general' language. I have coded in both Java and .NET and .NET is much easier to learn. It also can do some pretty powerful stuff, where Java just can't compete with. .NET development is much faster, probably because of a specific IDE that comes bundled with the software. The MSDN forum really sucks, as compared to this forum. So it boils down to what you like and are comfortable with.

[Dale DeMott]

Java can be deployed to a much wider and more robust server base. .NET servers are sitting on NT boxes. Try telling your client that they need to change their web server to a PC box because its not compatible with their UNIX box. They'll complain that the NT box isn't going to handle the load that is going to come into the system. .NET might be ok for smaller companies but if you get a heavier load, they'll need to move to a bigger app server.

[Ilja Preuss]

Originally posted by Dave Kairys:
Java Swing isn't as easy to figure out as compared to .NET, due to the far superior IDE in .NET than is currently available for Java. I have used Eclipse and IntelliJ Idea, but they don't compare.

If you just want to click a simple GUI together quickly, that's probably true. I prefer to handcode my GUIs, because in my experience that results in better factored, more reusable and better maintainable GUIs.

And there isn't a .NET IDE that can compete with the refactoring capabilities of IDEA or Eclipse, as far as I know.

[Dave Kairys]

And there isn't a .NET IDE that can compete with the refactoring capabilities of IDEA or Eclipse, as far as I know.

There are refracting tools for .NET(2003 and 2005). Go to Refracting Tools

In terms of creating GUI's with .NET, it is much simpler than with Swing, at least what I have done so far. I can create a very complex GUI in .NET in about 10 minutes, where the same GUI in Java would take several hundred lines of code to do. You can also change the layout of the GUI in the Windows Designer Code, if you know what you are doing. GUI design is much simpler in .NET than in Java.

[Shrinivas Mujumdar]

GUI design is much simpler in .NET than in Java.

Have you used NetBeans at any point of time i am sure you will change your opinion about the same. I will not say that in Java it is much more better than .net but why to compare IDEs?.( by the way NetBeans is as Superior as VS.net is.....)

If possible can we comapre on language features or Application Development comparisions?

Shrinivas

[Edwin Dalorzo]

On the surface we all might like programming a lot, but deep in the most primitive fibers of our souls we all do this for money.

So, who cares what is better!!! I just want to know where the money is.

In my country (Costa Rica) Microsoft has conquered almost everything.

--Oh, I beg you Sun, when are you going to send reinforcements, damn it!!! We don't know if can stand much longer!!! Help! Help! Yeah, I know, you are so busy conquering Asia. Well, when you have some resources to spare, give us a hand! Would you?

But, on the other hand, that makes Java Developers scarce, hence they typically pay better for Java Developers.

I have worked a bit with Microsoft's toys, in fact, I put food on my table thanks to them for a while. Now I am putting food on my table by using the Sun's toys. So who cares what's better. We all need to eat. Do you think there would be enough for all of us if everything were Microsoft.

Of course not!!! There would be just money enough to pay for the software licences and we all would be unemployed.

And if everything were Java, well, most of it would be free and then nobody would like to pay for our jobs.

Wake up and smell the blood. We spend a great deal of effort every day trying to kill each other... what for? As long as there is enogh space for you and us, there is no such thing as better.

Wake up people, look, C/C++ is already over there, here some of my partners still work with RPG.

Could we just get a truce for a while and enjoy the pleasure of feeling satisfied with all that we already have, that's to say, two of better technologies in the world? Out of a thousand that there is over there!

In a few more years, just as always happen, something will make us both to desappear. And then we all will abandon Microsoft or Sun, to go after something else. For that time I might be seeing the grass from its roots, as we say over here.

There are people working with other programming languages that never have this argument.

Java Ranchers, comrades, and you too, Microsoft guys, give a look to The Tiobe Index and enjoy the pleasure of being part of this great two communities in the whole world.

As to you, the Rancher who created this thread. Choose you camp, not hurt feelings. They both are very good and full of satisfactions.

I want peace!

Regards,
Edwin Dalorzo.
[ January 16, 2006: Message edited by: Edwin Dalorzo ]

[Ilja Preuss]

Originally posted by Dave Kairys:
In terms of creating GUI's with .NET, it is much simpler than with Swing, at least what I have done so far. I can create a very complex GUI in .NET in about 10 minutes, where the same GUI in Java would take several hundred lines of code to do.

How long it takes to create a complex GUI is much less important than how hard it is to change it or to reuse parts of it.

If it takes hundreds of lines of code to create a complex GUI, you should refactor that code so that it is distributed between small, well encapsulated units. The next time you need similar features in a GUI, it's a matter of just a few lines of code. And when you need a change, you just implement it in one place, the GUI of the whole program will still work consistently, not like a patchwork.

[Ken Blair]

- Visual Studio .NET IDE -> Speeds up the development time.

It's an IDE. Java has plenty of IDEs, this isn't an advantage.

- MSDN -> really great knowledgebase

That's debateable. I've seen several links recently to the MSDN where the information was misleading or inaccurate. In some cases, horribly inaccurate. Even if we accept that MSDN is a good knowledgebase, Java has plenty at http://java.sun.com along with http://java.net, http://ibm.com/developer/java/, http://javadesktop.com, etc.

- Crystal Report -> really great tool for visual reports

Never used it, but once again you're listing a tool (for which there is probably an equivalent in Java) rather than anything to do with the language.

disadvantages of C#:

- Microsoft dependent.

Not just Microsoft dependent, but platform dependent.

Advantages of Java:

- Platform independent ( but JVM dependent)

Good.

- great libaries !!

Okay. I haven't written C# so I couldn't say how good the libraries written for/in it are.

Disadvantages of Java:

- Slow

No. With few exceptions Java is not slow compared to C/C++/C#. In fact, it is often times faster. This is due in part to the efficiency of Java's garbage collection and the amount of time spent in memory (de)allocation.

- IDE`s are not really good enough ( tried .NetBeans, eclipse,IntelliJ Idea)

Who defines "good enough"? What is it that you wanted them to do that they couldn't? Most of the complaints I see are usually due to an ignorant user.

- Where the heck is groupbox or checked list box ( couldnt find in swing or awt )

So your "disadvantage" to Java is not providing a GUI component in the standard libraries? I don't know what a "groupbox" is specifically, but a List implemented with checkboxes is quite easy.

- Difficult to get used after coding in C# ( Why i cant compare Strings with == or != notation, why i have to use a compare method which returns 1 if they are equal )

This is only a disadvantage if you begin with the premise that everyone is coming from C#, which of course is completely absurd.


Conclusion:

Development time for java was 2 times more then C# ( maybe it`s coz of me eh ! )

Yes, it's because of you.

After i finish java, i'll start to do some software engineering quality tests for both java and C# , i'll give detalits about quality , memory, kloc, etc.. those who wants these information can e-mail me , so i can send a detalited report when i'm done with project )

Based upon your analysis thus far I wouldn't have any confidence in your results. I'm not trying to call you stupid, but thus far you've listed as "advantages" things that have nothing to do with the language and/or are debateable at best, and furthermore as disadvantages you've listed absurd things that are based upon faulty premises.

[Ken Blair]

Java Swing isn't as easy to figure out as compared to .NET, due to the far superior IDE in .NET than is currently available for Java. I have used Eclipse and IntelliJ Idea, but they don't compare.

Then you haven't actually "figured out" anything. Using an editor to do the work for you without any real knowledge of what it's doing is bad in any language.

Jesper said that Java is platform independent, which is true. However, an app written for the Windows platform will far outweigh the 'general' app, and the same goes for any other platform.

What do you mean by "outweigh"? I can't fathom a definition that would make your statement true. Outweigh terms of use? Hardly. Outweigh in terms of speed? Uhm, no. Outweigh in terms of market? No. Outweigh in terms of development time? Well, yes an application written for the Windows platform will in fact require more development time to port to other platforms, but I doubt that's what you meant. So what did you mean?

In other words, a platform specific language will always surpass a 'general' language.

Surpass in what way? Once again, you are using ambiguous teminology and once again I cannot conceive of a definition where this generalization would be true.

I have coded in both Java and .NET and .NET is much easier to learn.

Based upon your Swing comments I'm wondering if you've actually learned either language, or perhaps just learned the tools?

It also can do some pretty powerful stuff, where Java just can't compete with.

Like what?

.NET development is much faster, probably because of a specific IDE that comes bundled with the software.

How is it faster? Your argument seems to be it's faster because the developer knows how to use MS tools and not Java tools. That premise is flawed.

The MSDN forum really sucks, as compared to this forum. So it boils down to what you like and are comfortable with.

Well, that's true to an extent. Whether you are comfortable with Java or not, if the requirements mean Java is the optimal solution and your team goes with it I doubt they're going to allow you to code using .NET just becase you're more comfortable with it.

[Mark Spritzler]

One slight comment about GUIs and IDEs to create GUIs. Microsoft is easier to create the GUI look really fast, however, you are tied to the code that the IDE writes. Not that in Microsoft you really want to go into that code and make changes directly to it. Which is why Visual Studio automatically hides that code, and you would have to expand it to see it.

In Java I'd rather code it by hand. I find it much easier for Java that accepting any code that an IDE generates.

Just my preference, and that is really the key to your decision. What is your preference. People's opinions here are just that, opinion and preference. I know that there are just as good pros and cons for both products.

Personally, I have had much more fun with Java than coding in VB 6.0, Foxpro, or Access, to bring up Microsoft products.

But I also know that I have written a cell phone/PDA application in Java J2ME and in .net and wrote it much quicker in .net.

Mark

[Edwin Dalorzo]

Thanks to you all, Ranchers, for replying Vivekkumar Sharma question.

I am pretty sure he now knows what's better and he is confident about investing his resources in the best technology of the world.

Once again, thanks for your humble and guiding replies, all of them oriented to give Vivekkumar a north to follow and to help him realize that there is only one super technology that will take over the world.

Vivekkumar, I will sleep better this night knowing that we helped you make up your mind and that we robbed Microsoft another adept. Now if you help us convert some other I estimate we will destroy Microsoft in the next three million years and make Sun the master of the world. So, Vivekkumar, do not lose time with the Micrsoft people, they're doomed.

Regards,
Edwin Dalorzo.

[ January 18, 2006: Message edited by: Edwin Dalorzo ]
[ January 18, 2006: Message edited by: Edwin Dalorzo ]

[arjan tijms]

Originally posted by Joel McNary:
The one thing about C# that I wish Java had was the ability to implement two interfaces with the same method signature but meant to do different things.

I think that's a clear advantage. Another nice feature of C# that I would love to see in Java is the limited* operator overloading. Obviously atleast some people at Sun think operator overloading is a good idea (namely, the EL engineers and the guy who wrote the Javadoc for BigInteger).

We have operator overloading for Strings, why can't we have it for Collections and Numbers? I think something like myArray[1]; looks more natural than myArray.get(1); This is even more true for Numbers: big1.add(big2.subtract(big3)).devide(big4); (yugh!)

*
(limited when compared to C++)