US catholics outsource prayers to India

[Kishore Dandu]

According to this link that is already happening.

[Thomas Paul]

And the Catholic Church is bringing over many Indian priests because of the shortage of priests in the US.

[Jim Yingst]

According to this link that is already happening.

Hmmm... I get

Microsoft VBScript runtime  error '800a0005'
 
Invalid procedure call or argument: 'mid'
 
D:\DECCAN\NATION\./../flashnews/flashnews.asp, line 180

So, what was the link about?

[Paul McKenna]

Originally posted by Jim Yingst:
So, what was the link about?[/QB]

Bangalore, June 13: With Roman Catholic clergy in short supply in the United States, Indian priests are picking up some of their work, saying Mass for special intentions, in a sacred if unusual version of outsourcing. American, as well as Canadian and European churches, are sending Mass intentions, or requests for services like those to remember deceased relatives and thanksgiving prayers, to clergy in India. About 2 per cent of India�s more than one billion people are Christians, most of them Catholics.

In Kerala with one of the largest concentrations of Christians in India, churches often receive intentions from overseas. The Masses are conducted in Malayalam, the native language. The intention � often a prayer for the repose of the soul of a deceased relative, or for a sick family member, thanksgiving for a favour received, or a prayer offering for a newborn � is announced at Mass. The requests are mostly routed to Kerala�s churches through the Vatican, the bishops or through religious bodies. Rarely, prayer requests come directly to individual priests.

While most requests are made via mail or personally through traveling clergymen, a significant number arrive via e-mail, a sign that technology is expediting this practice. In Kerala�s churches, memorial and thanksgiving prayers conducted for local residents are said for a donation of Rs 40, whereas a prayer request from the United States typically comes with $5, the Indian priests say.

Bishop Sebastian Adayanthrath, the auxiliary bishop of the Ernakulam-Angamaly diocese in Cochin said his diocese received an average of 350 Mass intentions a month from overseas. Most were passed to needy priests. In Kerala, where priests earn $45 a month, the money is a welcome supplement, Bishop Adayanthrath said. But critics of the phenomenon said they were shocked that religious services were being sent offshore, or outsourced, a word normally used for clerical and other office jobs that migrate to countries with lower wages. In London, Amicus, the labor union that represents 1.2 million British workers, called on the government and workers to treat outsourcing as a serious issue.

In a news release, David Fleming, national secretary for finance of Amicus said the assignment of prayers �shows that no aspect of life in the West is sacred.�� �The very fabric of the nation is changing,�� he said. �We need to have a long, hard think about what the future is going to look like.� However, congregations in Kerala say the practice of ordering prayers is several decades old.
�The church is not a business enterprise, and it is sad and pathetic to connect this practice to outsourcing software work to cheaper labor destinations,�� said the Rev. Vincent Kundukulam of St. Joseph Pontifical Seminary in Aluva, near Cochin.

In Bangalore�s Dharmaram College, Rector James Narithookil said he often received requests for Mass intentions from abroad, which he distributed among the 50 priests in his seminary. Most of the requests from the US were for requiem, with donations of $5 to $10, he said. Adayan- thrath said sending Mass intentions overseas was a way for rich churches short on priests to share and support smaller churches in poorer parts of the world.

[John Smith]

I don't know about the shortage of priests. I remember from the news that the Boston Archdiocese was going to close some 60 of its parishes because of the declining Mass attendence. I know, I know, the Boston priests may not have the best reputation, but who is to say that the imported Indian priests will not have Kama Sutra in the back of their minds?

I do like the idea of outsourcing certain branches of government and services to India. Maybe national defense? Imagine how much work can the Indian soldiers do for the $200 billion that we've spent so far.

[Arjun Shastry]

{
but who is to say that the imported Indian priests will not have Kama Sutra in the back of their minds?
}
Let priests do their work.Better option would be send your women in India to get 'hands on' training on Kama Sutra?

[ June 13, 2004: Message edited by: Ram Abdullah D'Souza ]

[Damien Howard]

Originally posted by Ram Abdullah D'Souza:
{
but who is to say that the imported Indian priests will not have Kama Sutra in the back of their minds?
}
Let priests do their work.Better option would be send your women in India to get 'hands on' training on Kama Sutra?


[ June 13, 2004: Message edited by: Ram Abdullah D'Souza ]

Better yet, send your women to America to teach us Kama Sutra

[Mapraputa Is]

Why not to do both?

[Ashok Mash]

Can someone in India apply for patent on KamaSutra techniques and positions please? If I were asked to pay royalty for having fun with my partner, I wouldn't want to pay in dollars!

[Axel Janssen]

Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
And the Catholic Church is bringing over many Indian priests because of the shortage of priests in the US.

Same in Germany: the pastor of the parish of where my parents live is an Indian from Goa.
My parents neighbours are very catholic and active participators in the parish life. They like him as a person (though "could talk more"), but would prefer a local who "understands people better".
Maybe after some time pastor can change people to indian lifestyle . Will tell you when I see strange things among catholics in town where I've grown up. You will tell me if its because of indian pastor changing customs..
[ June 14, 2004: Message edited by: Axel Janssen ]

[ChanSan Mehbubani]

Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
And the Catholic Church is bringing over many Indian priests because of the shortage of priests in the US.

How many can they bring?not in thousands,right?why such a foul cry then?

[Thomas Paul]

Originally posted by Tanga Palti:
How many can they bring?not in thousands,right?why such a foul cry then?

Who is crying "foul"?

[Mohan Panigrahi]

The overt and covert repetions of outsourcing arguments have warped alive the ghost of a poet in me..alas! alas! you all had to bear the outcome of this.



aa-ou-uu-tsourcing aa-ou-uu-tsourcing ( in chorus )
is burning bright
has saved our life
is in our prayers
and softwares

aa-ou-uu-tsourcing aa-ou-uu-tsourcing ( in chorus )
would make us shine
and some of us whine
would drive cheap economy
though we won�t have any money

aa-ou-uu-tsourcing aa-ou-uu-tsourcing ( in chorus )
would equate world order
electronics , food and fodder
would enable equal opportunity
for american-town and indian-city

aa-ou-uu-tsourcing aa-ou-uu-tsourcing ( in chorus )
makes me laugh and makes me cry
a slip of pink and a job of joy
i fall deep in slumber with a sigh
is there anything that money cannot buy ?

[Ashok Mash]

Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
And the Catholic Church is bringing over many Indian priests because of the shortage of priests in the US.

Any idea what the rates are like?

[Thomas Paul]

Originally posted by Ashok Mash:
Any idea what the rates are like?

14k a year but it includes room and board. Of course, you have to give up women so you can save a lot of money there.

[Sadanand Murthy]

Originally posted by Thomas Paul:


14k a year but it includes room and board. Of course, you have to give up women so you can save a lot of money there.

What about medical insurance?

[Helen Thomas]

Well it's hardly out sourcing if the jobs you all are describing are in the US.

Perhaps the jobs are in the US(West) and the sins are outsourced. Whatever would the good clergy of India make of all the goings-on ?

This could make good Pythonesque comedy.

[Thomas Paul]

Originally posted by Sadanand Murthy:
What about medical insurance?

Yes, medical insurance is included. Many of the best hospitals in the US are run by the Catholic Church.

[Thomas Paul]

Originally posted by Helen Thomas:
Well it's hardly out sourcing if the jobs you all are describing are in the US.

If you look at the link in the first post you will see that there is outsourcing as well. I think sins will never be outsourced as the US is very skilled in this area.

[Helen Thomas]

They are off-shoring religion altogether. No place for that in the US anymore.
link

The Supreme Court already has said schoolchildren cannot be required to recite the oath that begins, "I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America." The court also has repeatedly barred school-sponsored prayer from classrooms, playing fields and school ceremonies.

Before 1954, when the United States was in the middle of the Cold War, the pledge did not include a reference to God. In adding it, members of Congress said they wanted to set the United States apart from "godless communists."

In a ruling last year, the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals (news - web sites) in San Francisco said the language of the First Amendment and the Supreme Court's precedents make clear that tax-supported schools cannot lend their imprimatur to a declaration of fealty to "one nation under God."

That decision set off a national uproar and would have stripped the reference to God from the version of the pledge said by about 9.6 million schoolchildren in California and other Western states covered by the appeals court.


ANyone heard of the church of fools site ?
Church of fools
I think it's a British site sponsored by our top Bishops.
Ship of fools
[ June 15, 2004: Message edited by: Helen Thomas ]

[Jim Yingst]

They are off-shoring religion altogether. No place for that in the US anymore.

Yet somehow, people here manage to worship nonetheless. :roll:

I don't suppose you read the part of the article that's actually news? You know, the part that contradicts your intended point.

[Helen Thomas]

JY : Yet somehow, people here manage to worship nonetheless. :roll:

How is this worshiping supposed to work. Priests in India say the prayers. It's a consequence of worship seeming repetitive and monotone.

JY : I don't suppose you read the part of the article that's actually news? You know, the part that contradicts your intended point.

Court Allows 'Under God' on Technicality. If Newdow had been a legal representative of his daughter, perhaps the words 'Under God' could have been removed from the pledge by now.

The phrase "one nation under God" is more about ceremony and history than about religion, Rehnquist wrote. He likened the phrase to the motto "In God We Trust" on U.S. currency, and to the call that opens each session of the high court itself: "God save this honorable court."

"All these events strongly suggest that our national culture allows public recognition of our nation's religious history and character," Rehnquist wrote.

But, The First Amendment guarantees that government will not "establish" religion, wording that has come to mean a general ban on overt government sponsorship of religion in public schools and elsewhere.

Just been to the Church of fools and sat next to Jeffrey Dammer.


[ June 15, 2004: Message edited by: Helen Thomas ]

[Arjun Shastry]

Many people think Christanity in India is new.Its not the case.It is older than western Europe.
Churches in Kerala India.

Christanity in India

[Ashok Mash]

Thanks for the excellent links, Arjun!

[Ashok Mash]

Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
14k a year but it includes room and board. Of course, you have to give up women so you can save a lot of money there.

Hmmm, slave labour!

[Jeroen Wenting]

Originally posted by Helen Thomas:
In a ruling last year, the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals (news - web sites) in San Francisco said the language of the First Amendment and the Supreme Court's precedents make clear that tax-supported schools cannot lend their imprimatur to a declaration of fealty to "one nation under God."

That decision set off a national uproar and would have stripped the reference to God from the version of the pledge said by about 9.6 million schoolchildren in California and other Western states covered by the appeals court. [/i]

The US Suppreme Court yesterday overturned that decision of the 9th Circus Court, like they do most decisions made by that court it seems.
Stated reason is that the pledge is not a religious statement and even if it were the father of the girl has no authority to dictate the girl's religious beliefs (the father is an atheist, the mother is catholic, the girl was conceived outside of wedlock and there is still no decision of which parent has custodianship of the girl who is currently living with her father).

[Helen Thomas]

Originally posted by Arjun Shastry:
Many people think Christanity in India is new.Its not the case.It is older than western Europe.
Churches in Kerala India.

Christanity in India

So what would they Syrian Christians have to offer over the church of fools , say ?

[Marcus Green]

The reference to God in the pledge was added in 1954, so I suggest it is neither sanctioned by history or a vital element.

I come from a nation with an "official religion" the Church of England. Although it is mainly a beneign influence it seems a misplaced idea and I have great admiration for the US concept of strict separation of Church and State.

[KR Campbell]

I don't know why anyone would be surprised about this; it is a very old practice. Rich people used to pay priests to pray for their eternal souls in the belief that x sins = f(x) prayers. If you were very naughty and very rich you would endow a monastery full of monks whose only job was to pray for your filthy soul and get you out of purgatory in double quick time. There was also a great trade in (I think they were called) indulgences which were basically 'get out of jail free' cards to cancel out particular sins.

[Thomas Paul]

How is this worshiping supposed to work. Priests in India say the prayers.

If someone dies you can go to the local church and get a mass card. The church then says a mass for the deceased on a particular day. In this case, the donation is sent to India and a priest there says the mass.

[Joe King]

Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
If someone dies you can go to the local church and get a mass card. The church then says a mass for the deceased on a particular day. In this case, the donation is sent to India and a priest there says the mass.

Church: So if I give you a name and a bit of money, you'll make sure that a mass gets organised for this person?
Salesman: Er... sure. Just hand over the cash and I'll sort out a mass. Honest. I may even send you a special certificate to prove it isn't all a con.

[Jason Menard]

Originally posted by Joe King:
Church: So if I give you a name and a bit of money, you'll make sure that a mass gets organised for this person?
Salesman: Er... sure. Just hand over the cash and I'll sort out a mass. Honest. I may even send you a special certificate to prove it isn't all a con.

Do you enjoy mocking people's religions or something?
[ June 15, 2004: Message edited by: Jason Menard ]

[Thomas Paul]

Church: So if I give you a name and a bit of money, you'll make sure that a mass gets organised for this person?

No. It is a violation of Catholic Church teaching to sell a mass. The money is a donation and is strictly voluntary.

[Jim Yingst]

[HST]: They are off-shoring religion altogether. No place for that in the US anymore.

[JY]: Yet somehow, people here manage to worship nonetheless.

[HST]: How is this worshiping supposed to work. Priests in India say the prayers. It's a consequence of worship seeming repetitive and monotone.

Ummmm... people can still go to church here, you know. They still exist, and many people do indeed go. Others worship in other ways. They can pray by/for themselves, or with others. I don't know much about this particular practice of the Catholic church, but statements like "off-shoring religion altogether" and "No place for that in the US anymore" are frankly quite ludicrous.

[Helen Thomas]

OK. I take those statements back. I did think after reading that article that religion was definitely not mainstream anymore.

Which it isn't. It's fine by me if parts of observing a religion have been off-shored. Either the Church has given up on getting more priests ordained (Does the Catholic Church not accept women to train as priests ?)or it's supporting poor priests in remote parts of the globe,as mentioned in Thomas Paul's quote:

If someone dies you can go to the local church and get a mass card. The church then says a mass for the deceased on a particular day. In this case, the donation is sent to India and a priest there says the mass.

What's next ?

Would one hire one's personal accountant from offshore ?
[ June 15, 2004: Message edited by: Helen Thomas ]

[Joe King]

Originally posted by Jason Menard:


Do you enjoy mocking people's religions or something?

[ June 15, 2004: Message edited by: Jason Menard ]

Absolutely not. I was pointing out a potential flaw in the system - it could be possible for a person of unscrupulous nature to take money for mass and then not actually hold the mass. How would the church in country X know that the mass in country Y has actually happened? The "con" I was referring to was the potential one I've just described, not the religion as a whole.

[Jeroen Wenting]

Originally posted by Joe King:


Church: So if I give you a name and a bit of money, you'll make sure that a mass gets organised for this person?
Salesman: Er... sure. Just hand over the cash and I'll sort out a mass. Honest. I may even send you a special certificate to prove it isn't all a con.

Sounds suspiciously like the travelling salesmen and priests in the middle ages in Europe going around selling redemption...
Murder: 10 grams of gold
Rape: 5 grams
Theft: 1 gram
Bad thoughts: 1 meal and wash my clothes for me

I made up the rates, but the practice was very real. The Vatican put an end to it after a few centuries when it began seriously affecting the amount of money actually ending up in church coffers.

[Thomas Paul]

Originally posted by Jeroen Wenting:
I made up the rates, but the practice was very real. The Vatican put an end to it after a few centuries when it began seriously affecting the amount of money actually ending up in church coffers.

Actually, the Council of Trent outlawed the practice of selling indulgences when Martin Luther started the Protestant Reformation and pointed out how indulgences were being abused.

The practice we are talking about has nothing to do with indulgences. As I said, the masses are not purchased. Any amount given is a voluntary donation. The practice itself is simply the practice of praying for the souls of the departed and the family they left behind.

[Jeroen Wenting]

Sure it's voluntary. But no payment, no mass...
No mass, no salvation...

[Thomas Paul]

Originally posted by Jeroen Wenting:
Sure it's voluntary. But no payment, no mass...
No mass, no salvation...

Absolutely not! As I said, you are not required to donate anything in order to have the mass said. Plus, having a mass said for you will not give you salvation.