Sometimes I feel like a motherless child

[Mapraputa Is]

And sometimes like a fatherless.

Actually, most of the time I feel so much like my mother, that I wonder. The rest of the time I feel I am a copy of my father.

The problem is they are so different, that I spend more time trying to work out anything coherent out of this combination than living.

I am still so grateful they made my attempts at unifying possible, at which attempts they weren't too good themselves.

[Helen Thomas]

I doubt this song by Depeche mode would help. Or it's an American folk song
ANDY GOODRICH alto jazz "Motherless Child"
Boney M's version

1. Sometimes I feel like a motherless child (3x)
A long way from home, a long long way from home.

2. Sometimes I wish that I could fly (3x)
Like a bird up in the sky, like a bird up in the sky.

3. Sometimes I feel like I�m almost gone (3x)
A long way from home, a long long way from home

4. Sometimes I feel like freedom is near, (3x)
But we�re so far away, but we�re so far away.

5. Motherless children have a real hard time (3x)
For so long, for so long

6. Sometimes I feel like it�s close at hand (3x)
But we�re so far from home, but we�re so far from home

a RealAudio (G2) stream of a performance of this work by Desert Voices, Keith A. Koster, conductor

Motherless Child is derived, in part, from the African-American spiritual "Sometimes I Feel Like a Motherless Child." The original song dates back to the era of slavery when it was common practice to sell children of slaves away from their parents.

In this new adaptation, the theme of separation or alienation (away from home, apart from one's community) is viewed as universal and eternal. Everyone at some time feels like a "motherless child."

But as one expresses these feelings, one realizes a common bond with humanity. And one is no longer alone.

Thus a more hopeful refrain is woven into the lyrics of the spiritual:

Hold on.
Hold on.
We are together.
And we are one.

[ August 18, 2004: Message edited by: Helen Thomas ]

[Bacon]

Those who don't have family problems don't have families.

Not to dismiss anyone's pain. Some situations are far worse than others.

The point is there is no such thing as a perfect family, mostly because they are comprised of people.

The path to peace is reconciliation and forgiveness, the path to strife is bitterness and resentment.

I followed the second path for many years in regards to my father. I didn't talk about it, but in my heart I was hurt and angry. The anger simmered deep inside for a long time. Thank God that this is no longer true.
[ August 18, 2004: Message edited by: Ray Marsh ]

[basha khan]

A deep jealousy that comes to most mother when the daughter becomes young and beautiful.Most woman hates her mother,but ask and every woman will say, "My mother, she is just divine".But they think mother was a hindrance.They like father.And Freud backups it.

Kahlil Gibran has a story. He says, one night one mother and daughter were awakened suddenly because of a noise. They both were sleepwalkers, and the time the sudden noise happened in the neighborhood they were both walking in the garden, asleep. They were sleep-walkers.It must have been a shock, because in sleep the old woman, the mother, was saying to the daughter that, "Because of u, u bitch, because of u, my youth is lost. u destroyed me. And now anybody who comes to the house looks at u. Nobody looks at me." A deep jealousy that comes to every mother when the daughter becomes young and beautiful. It happens to every mother, but it is inside.And the daughter was saying, "u old rotten.. Because of u I cannot enjoy life. u are the hindrance. Everywhere u are the hindrance, the obstacle. I cannot love; I cannot enjoy."And suddenly, because of the noise, they were both awakened. And the old woman said, "My child, what are u doing here? u may catch cold. Come inside." And the daughter said, "But what are u doing here? u were not feeling well and this is a cold night. Come, mother.Come to the bed.

The first thing that was happening was coming from the unconscious. Now they are again pretending; they have become awakened.Now the unconscious has gone back,the conscious has come in.

Love relationships are very strange, complicated phenomena.They are love-hate relationships.The hate needs to be expressed some way or other.Look husbent-wife scenario,for the simple reason that they are dependent on each other for gaining happiness.and nobody likes dependence.Freedom is an intrinsic desire of human beings. If a woman or a man gives u joy, and u become dependent, u are at the same time creating a hate.So love-hate relationships.

Dont be worried abt affection.It's beuty lies becoz of it's dual-polarity nature.It has it's own beuty in it.

Just live ahead!!.

---
basha

[Mohan Panigrahi]

Not to hijack the thread- but does anybody here has a 100% loving relationship with anyone- husband/wife/parents ?

Basha Khan's idea of love-hate relationship is very interesting- Do you feel a dislike/jealousy for the ones you truly feel you love when you are awake?

[Mapraputa Is]

I doubt this song by Depeche mode would help. Or it's an American folk song

I heard it in Louis Armstrong's performance. I thought it's famous.

"Because of u, u bitch, because of u, my youth is lost. u destroyed me. And now anybody who comes to the house looks at u. Nobody looks at me."

Worse than Dostoevsky. In all possible senses. I think, it's much more complicated than that. To say that envy is "real" and all the rest is "pretending" means to oversimplify the thing. If there is "envy" in the first place. Looks like a poor man's attempt to decipher a female psyche.

Love relationships are very strange, complicated phenomena.They are love-hate relationships.

That's only one possible scenario, I would think, and a rather pathological one.

[Bacon]

Originally posted by Mohan Panigrahi:
Not to hijack the thread- but does anybody here has a 100% loving relationship with anyone- husband, wife, parents ?

Even if you do today, it requires maintenance to continue. Relationships are always in a state of change. We like to think they will always be as they are when things are good and lament over bad relationships that we feel will not change.

It is a danger IMHO to be too clinical about such things.
[ August 18, 2004: Message edited by: Ray Marsh ]

[Gail Schlentz]

Originally posted by Ray Marsh:

It is a danger IMHO to be too clinical about such things.

When I first read this, I thought it said "cynical" instead of clinical. I think both are true!

"...if you can't be with the one you love... love the one you're with..."

[Helen Thomas]

A father laying claim to the affections of the child by deeming the mother
unworthy? I think. Or that the mother would only see him (conceited sod) in the child that it would be impossible for the mother to love the child.
Or that the father feels let down by the mother's lack of understanding of his own dreams so wants no part of the child to be the mother's. This poem is sometimes titled To An Orphan Child.


To a Motherless Child by Thomas Hardy

Ah, child, thou art but half thy darling mother's;
Hers, couldst thou wholly be,
My light in thee would outglow all in others;
She would relive to me.
But niggard Nature's trick of birth
Bars, lest she overjoy,
Renewal of the loved on earth
Save with alloy.

The Dame has no regard, alas, my maiden,
For love and loss like mine--
No sympathy with mindsight memory-laden,
Only with fickle eyne.
To her mechanic artistry,
My dreams are all unknown,
And why I wish that thou couldst be
But One's alone!

[Tony Alicea]

My all time favorite version of "Motherless Child" is from the late 1960s L.A. band "Sweetwater"...

[Helen Thomas]

ERIC CLAPTON

Motherless Child
(traditional)

If I mistreat you girl, I sure don't mean no harm.
If I mistreat you girl, I sure don't mean no harm.
Well, I'm a motherless child; I don't know right from wrong.

Please tell me pretty mama, honey where'd you stay last night?
Please tell me pretty mama, honey where'd you stay last night?
Well, you didn't come home till the sun was shining bright.

I had to go so far girl to get my ham bones boiled.
Had to go so far girl to get my ham bones boiled.
Well, he's had a lotta women, gonna let my ham bones burn.

Well, I did more for you, girl, than your daddy ever done.
Well, I did more for you, girl, than your daddy ever done.
Well, I give you my jelly, he ain't give you none.

And when you see two women, always running hand in hand.
When you see two women, always running hand in hand.
You can bet your bottom dollar, one got the other one's man.

Lord, I'm going to the river, get me a tangled rocking chair.
I'm going to the river, get me a tangled rocking chair.
And if the blues overtake me, gonna rock away from here.


Even Tom Jones,Sweet Honey in the Rock, Harry Belafonte had some version of Motherless Child.
[ August 18, 2004: Message edited by: Helen Thomas ]

[basha khan]

If there is "envy" in the first place. Looks like a poor man's attempt to decipher a female psyche.

Do girls know their own psyche?..never.no chance!.Girls are unconcious and complicated.slaves of body(hormones) and mind(emotions).but only complicated in minute details.But very simple if anybody look in a broader picture.just UNCONCIOUS.So first place and second place are irrelovent.Who knows when UNCONCIOUS jumps in?.

That's only one possible scenario, I would think, and a rather pathological one.

they were both awakened. And the old woman said, "My child, what are u doing here? u may catch cold. Come inside." And the daughter said, "But what are u doing here? u were not feeling well and this is a cold night. Come, mother.Come to the bed.

Is this another scenario?.


Basha Khan's idea of love-hate relationship is very interesting- Do you feel a dislike/jealousy for the ones you truly feel you love when you are awake?

In my case,i dont love and hate my parents.The relationship is something superior.But i say,in most husbent-wife scenarios,it's absolutely right.Love-Hate relationship occur there.And i am not married yet .But i think so.

And in mother-doughter relation also,what i said is true.And jealousy occur when doughter become young and beutiful.

---
basha
[ August 18, 2004: Message edited by: basha khan ]

[Mapraputa Is]

BK: Do girls know their own psyche?..never.no chance!.Girls are unconcious and complicated.slaves of body(hormones) and mind(emotions).

I would answer, but I am not sure if you are serious.

[basha khan]

Originally posted by Mapraputa Is:
BK: Do girls know their own psyche?..never.no chance!.Girls are unconcious and complicated.slaves of body(hormones) and mind(emotions).

I would answer, but I am not sure if you are serious.

OK.I change my statement a little bit for u.

Girls are unconcious 80%.
Boys are unconcious 40%.

Happy?.

---
basha

[R K Singh]

Originally posted by basha khan:
OK.I change my statement a little bit for u.
Girls are unconcious 80%.
Boys are unconcious 40%.

I wish you were true.

hmm... still looking for a female who is from venus. OR is it that the female I come across are not from venus and thats why I know them.

[Mapraputa Is]

BK: Girls are unconcious 80%.
Boys are unconcious 40%.

I wasn't sure you believe in that yourself.

I still don't know if your opinion is based on some (unfortunate?) experience, or there is some popular myth at work, which reflects certain collective male perceptions. In any case, what you perceive as "unconsciousness" is most likely another, female culture. We don't look irrational to each other, but boys often do look irrational and lacking abilities and often interest in analyzing their behavior. So contempt and misunderstanding are reciprocal here, unfortunately...

Deborah Tannen wrote several books on the topic, which are very worth reading, if you want to achieve a deeper insight.

[basha khan]

Map,

The entire humanity is somewhat unconcious.little neurotic.But you need to be little more alert or out of "Normal neurosis of humanity" to understand it.Life is parable between two extreames.Dark-Light,Love-Hate,Day-Night,Intelligence-Emotion..etc

Somebody asked Sigmund Freud once, "In fact, what exactly are u doing in psychoanalysis, and what is the goal of it?" He said,and he was a really authentic person,he said, "At the most what we can do is this: we make hysterical, unhappy people normally unhappy.utterly unconcious people normally unconcious. That's all,hysterically unhappy people, normally unhappy; we bring them back to the normal unhappiness, like everybody else. They were going a little too much; they were creating too much unhappiness and they were becoming neurotic. We bring them back to the normal neurosis of humanity.

And what i said is women is more in neurosis than man.A little percentage more.Becoz of their peculiarities both in hardware and sofware.They are more inclined in emotions than man.So they are little more unconcious.

Much writing is required to make u understood what i mean by this.I'll do when i get some free time.If u need to.

---
basha

[Bacon]

Originally posted by Deepak Mahbubani:


There couldn't be a better way to think like a pessimist than this.

Dude, family problems may occur, but they should not prolong and should not repeat.
Those who face family problems regularly need to see a therapist and get it sorted out else life would be hell for them.

I did not intend to paint a bleak picture of family relationships. Sometimes for the sake of brevity, I don't explain myself adequately.

The point I was trying to make is that all relationships have ups and downs. Families are the most intense and close relationships that most, if not all, of us will have in our lives. Siblings are typically the longest relationships and the most tumultuous.

Family is one of the most important aspects of my life and I am blessed to be part of one.

Some families, have very serious problems and there is a lot of pain and emotional turmoil. Those situations are very sad and do need help.

[R K Singh]

Originally posted by basha khan:
They are more inclined in emotions than man.So they are little more unconcious.

I think it has similarity with a myth that men dont cry and women dont smile.

I personally feel that women has more power to deal with emotional turmoil than men. Might be the way they are brought up or might be because of physical diffrences or might be becasue of different harmones.

[Mapraputa Is]

BK: The entire humanity is somewhat unconcious.little neurotic.But you need to be little more alert or out of "Normal neurosis of humanity" to understand it.

Alert -- I agree. We might understand different things by "neurotic", though. My understanding is based on two Karen Horney's books: "Our Inner Conflicts: A Constructive Theory of Neurosis" and "The Neurotic Personality of Our Time". Her theory is that if a child grows in an environment traumatic for his/her needs, he/she might develop "A False Self" - an idealized image of self. Later too much efforts are spend to protect this unrealistic image, rather than to deal with real problems. Is it close enough to your understanding? She is a Freud's student, but she developed his ideas further and her interpretation makes much more sense to me than Oedipus complex etc. Often, she used her own reactions as a material to analyze, so I don't fully agree that you need to be out of "Normal neurosis of humanity" to understand it.

And what i said is women is more in neurosis than man.A little percentage more.

Um, Ok. Does that mean that we are down from twice as much to "A little percentage more"? Still what are your estimations based on? What about other kinds of mental disorders -- are we going to consider them also? For example, males are tree times more likely to be affected by autism than females, and 42% more likely to suffer from schizophrenia. Not sure what it proves, though. Frankly, when you say things like "Girls are unconcious and complicated. slaves of body (hormones) and mind (emotions)" -- this reminds me an old theory that women should be banned from obtaining college degrees for their own protection: the academic burden will be so unbearable that they will pass out exhausted.

Time has shown that there are far less differences between gender than it was believed...

Becoz of their peculiarities both in hardware and sofware.They are more inclined in emotions than man.So they are little more unconcious.

I don't agree that to be more inclined to react emotionally necessarily means to be "unconscious". If we are into talking myths, there is another popular myth, that women naturally feel more empathy toward people, read other people's emotions better, are more sociable etc. etc. etc. In this sense they are "more conscious", not less. If to talk about inadequate emotions, then frankly I didn't notice any significant differences that can be attributed to either gender.

Much writing is required to make u understood what i mean by this.I'll do when i get some free time.If u need to.

Well, I am curious where your views came from... What philosophy/religion/theory/folk wisdom they are based on? Are they your own personal observations?
[ August 19, 2004: Message edited by: Mapraputa Is ]

[Helen Thomas]

Originally posted by Helen Thomas:
I doubt this song by Depeche mode would help.

IT's actually a solo by Martin Gore of DM.
[ August 19, 2004: Message edited by: Helen Thomas ]

[basha khan]

Map,

Well, I am curious where your views came from... What philosophy/religion/theory/folk wisdom they are based on? Are they your own personal observations?

It's a mixed fuit jam of many ideaologies + my own neurosis.

We may discuss abt these issues later on.

---
basha

[Nick George]

Originally posted by Mapraputa Is:

"Because of u, u bitch, because of u, my youth is lost. u destroyed me. And now anybody who comes to the house looks at u. Nobody looks at me."

Worse than Dostoevsky. In all possible senses. I think, it's much more complicated than that. To say that envy is "real" and all the rest is "pretending" means to oversimplify the thing. If there is "envy" in the first place. Looks like a poor man's attempt to decipher a female psyche.

I confess to having read very little of this thread, but my eyes picked out Dostoyevsky, of whom I am a great fan. I wonder where that connection came from. The only mother-daughter relationship I can think of in Dostoyevsky is back in Crime And Punishment, when, if I remember correctly, the mother has an outburst regarding her poverty, after which the daughter departs, sells her body, and returns the money to her mother, unable to speak, a sort of hatred bound by love implicity in her silence. I recall it being an extreamly powerful scene. That book may be coming up due for a reread...

[Mapraputa Is]

In "The Idiot" and "the Brothers Karamasov" Dostoevsky pictures women who could be classified as "irrational". When I read the novels, they were as foreign to me as to any sane man, probably. Less so, now.

[Nick George]

Ah yes, the 'wailers', to use McDuff's translation. Foreign, but astoundingly beleiveable. We see their need to salve themselves with constant self-lacerations, constant rubbing of salt in their wounds. To me, it is this sort of description of people that makes me love Dostoyevsky so much. All his characters are driven by their own exceptional and exceptionally personal drives, but in doing so, all are completely beleiveable and understandable in their exceptionality. Despite being entirely foreign to us, we understand why Mitya would kill his father before seeming a thief in the eyes of Katya. As preposterous as the medicine bag story is, we understand the drive of Mitya, and we know every word of it is true. We understand his irritation at what he considers to be insignificant details regarding his defense, while he focuses so much on "Mitya's great secret" for which he is "hissed off the stage."

Sorry to hijack the thread, but I'm still fresh from amazment from reading that book. I envy you greatly for being able to read it as written, instead of having to go through translations.

[Mapraputa Is]

I wanted to post a quote from "The Brothers Karamasov" here, in MD, a while back, so I found an English translation. I liked it, I don't think you miss anything substantial reading a translation. The language of the original is a bit foreign to me too, probably changed a lot since XIX century. Life changed also, and I think I miss all the subtleties, like you.