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School curriculum idea...

 
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oh god - I can hear you thinking - here goes Adrian with another one of his crazy ideas!!! (Actually this one isnt too silly)

I was involved recently in a discussion about what are "essential" skills that should be taught in school and everyone listed Maths, English and increasingly added to that list was "computer skills" (whatever they may be!)

Back in my youth we had other "lifeskill" classes such as cooking, hygiene & health and careers advice lessons...

In the agressive modern world we live live in it is my hypothesis that one of the most essential skills that we need to develop is "Commercial Scepticism". Perhaps with a little direction from schools we could help younger generations to defend themsleves against the constant attacks they recieve from the evil world of 'Sales & Marketing'. These days agressive sales campaigns are increasingly targetting our school children before they've had a chance to develop the maturity and experience to realise how manipulated they are. Surely a well structured eductaional program highlighting techniques used to sell us things would help people to resist all the rubbish that we are unwittingly persuaded we need to buy?

Does anywhere do this in schools?
[ October 18, 2004: Message edited by: Adrian Wallace ]
 
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Basically, you want to teach Common Sense which I don't think can be taught. Some people just don't have it. And you can't fail someone in school for it.
 
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My kids have had short units on this. They had to bring in some ads, show how they may be misleading or try to associate a product with happiness and success in an illogical way. I don't think it took, tho.
 
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I think the opposite is happening: that is, critical thinking skills are being suppressed. It's amazing to me that basic logic, truth tables, logical discrimination, etc., are simply not being taught. Most kids don't even know the meaning of the terms.

Why? Because we're training our students to be so results focused that we're not training them to learn. We don't reward curiosity, we find ourselves annoyed by it. Robert Pirsig has a pretty good quote about this.

We're in such a hurry most of the time we never get much chance to talk. The result is a kind of endless day-to-day shallowness, a monotony that leaves a person wondering years later where all the time went and sorry that it's all gone.

You could argue, I suppose, that such skills are inherently taught when students study mathematics. However, I would content that mathematics is taught so badly that students learn to view critical thinkers with a taint of some kind: as if the person thinking critically is on the verge of sending them to detention. I think it's a sad state of affairs. What you generally get as a result, IMO, are people who can't tell the difference between clever arguments and correct ones: hence, ripe pickings for advertisers.

M
[ October 18, 2004: Message edited by: Max Habibi ]
 
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I feel the school should teach the children the following skills as well:
self-esteem building, conflict resolution techniques, peer relations, understanding and controlling emotions, anger management, communication skills, readiness and self control, understanding feelings, assertiveness training, resisting peer pressure, ethical decision making, career exploration and goal setting.
[ October 18, 2004: Message edited by: Joyce Lee ]
 
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MH: It's amazing to me that basic logic, truth tables, logical discrimination, etc., are simply not being taught. Most kids don't even know the meaning of the terms.

We studied basic (Boolean?) logic, truth tables etc. at the University, and I didn't notice any significant improvement in anybody's thinking, neither in my own. For any real-life issue, I suppose the real problem is lack of factual base, as our knowledge is so often incomplete and uncertain. If to add that in real-life issues often our emotions or, worse yet, "values" are involved... Poor truth tables.

Here is an interesting approach to the problem:

Returning to the analysis of [censored out - M.I.] discourse, it's worth observing that there is another way to think about these things, due originally to Aristotle: effective rhetoric is an amalgam of ethos (the character of the speaker), pathos (the emotions of the audience) and logos (the content of the argument).
URL



Why? Because we're training our students to be so results focused that we're not training them to learn. We don't reward curiosity, we find ourselves annoyed by it.

I couldn't agree more. I once got my hands on Syntax book. It doesn't teach much in usual sense, because it's all consists of "problems", and students are expected to make their own hypothesis and conclusions. I remembered our boring to the death Russian or foreign language classes and thought: why did they poured on us all this grammatical nonsense nobody ever asked for, why didn't they ask us to figure how the language works for ourselves. It would be so much more interesting and rewarding...

You could argue, I suppose, that such skills are inherently taught when students study mathematics. However, I would content that mathematics is taught so badly

I think, personality of a teacher matters more than a subject. I got most "thinking skills" from my biology class, only because we had a very good teacher.
[ October 18, 2004: Message edited by: Mapraputa Is ]
 
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I need to choose my words very carefully here.

An enormous wave of anti-intellectualism has swept over the U.S. in the last few decades. I think Max's comments about people actually distrusting those capable of applying critical thinking or of constructing a valid argument are spot-on.

My personal theory is the blame goes to the commercial media's internalization and perversion of the rock-and-roll era's coda, the "Never mind the bollocks" nihilism that started with the Who's Autodestruction and culminated in Sid Vicious' own autodestruction. That kind of over-the-top adolescent disrespect, distrust of authority, and violent self-pardody is now spoon-fed -- in an almost unrecognizably sanitized form -- to the common man. The same profit-driven media that originally used it as a way to separate teens from dollars now uses it to sell Cadillacs, telephones and politicians.

Do we see witty repartee in the movies any more? No. Anyone who tries to talk for more than a few seconds is summarily executed with an anti-tank missle at point-blank range. We don't have time to listen, and we don't care.
[ October 18, 2004: Message edited by: Ernest Friedman-Hill ]
 
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Originally posted by Gregg Bolinger:
Basically, you want to teach Common Sense which I don't think can be taught. Some people just don't have it. And you can't fail someone in school for it.



Common sense does not cover this! Advertisers have for years being doing their best to get you to bypass common sense and You need knowledge of the techniques used by advertisers to be able to see how you are being manipulated:

1) "All stock up to 60% off" - At first this sounds like a good deal - but only with experience do we realise that this is usualy a load of rubbish, with us having no idea when the goods were actually available at the "previously advertised price"... Also the phrase "up to" means that most of goods included in the above sale may be still 100% of their pre-sale cost.. offering no sale whatsoever... this technique is a common and fairly simple one to learn to be cautious of, but I'd question seriously whether it was "common sense".

2) "Forest Lake" (or "Hilltop Pines" etc etc ...) - A new housing development like thousands all over the world, little plasticy box houses. Right next to a run down drug-infested crime hell-hole suburb, and built ironically on land that was once untouched bushland.. Why call it "Forest Lake" - so it sounds nice - conjures up images of greenery and tranquil water - actually there's a half stangnant man-made pond in the middle of a whole bunch of high-denisty low-income housing... Its a horrible place but the marketing people make it sound desirable.. Again - I dont think common sense is enough to 'see through' the deception you need to know what they're doing....

..and I havent even begun to talk about the complex psychology behind "brand awareness" campaigns and highly polished image-targeting campaigns... These go WAAAY beyond common sense, and if we all new what they were doing and how they worked we would be better equiped to override the power of advertising and try to re-introduce some common-sense into some of our decision making.
 
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Originally posted by Joyce Lee:
I feel the school should teach the children the following skills as well:
self-esteem building, conflict resolution techniques, peer relations, understanding and controlling emotions, anger management, communication skills, readiness and self control, understanding feelings, assertiveness training, resisting peer pressure, ethical decision making, career exploration and goal setting.



Those are all vital, but that's what religion is for. Abolishing the idea of an official state religion changes little if the state is going to institutionalize every aspect of religion short of public prayer.
 
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Originally posted by Adrian Wallace:
In the agressive modern world we live live in it is my hypothesis that one of the most essential skills that we need to develop is "Commercial Scepticism". Perhaps with a little direction from schools we could help younger generations to defend themsleves against the constant attacks they recieve from the evil world of 'Sales & Marketing'.

Great idea! Let's start a marketing campaign to promote it!

 
Thomas Paul
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Originally posted by Ernest Friedman-Hill:
Do we see witty repartee in the movies any more? No. Anyone who tries to talk for more than a few seconds is summarily executed with an anti-tank missle at point-blank range. We don't have time to listen, and we don't care.

I guess you and I watch different movies. Have you seen Finding Nemo?

 
Ernest Friedman-Hill
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Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
I guess you and I watch different movies. Have you seen Finding Nemo?



Well, the truth is, we don't watch many movies at all these days. Half the ones that aren't about blowing things up are concerned mostly with bodily processes of one kind or another. Only a tiny percentage of films with any intelligence are being made these days.
 
Max Habibi
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Originally posted by Adrian Wallace:

..and I havent even begun to talk about the complex psychology behind "brand awareness" campaigns and highly polished image-targeting campaigns... These go WAAAY beyond common sense, and if we all new what they were doing and how they worked we would be better equiped to override the power of advertising and try to re-introduce some common-sense into some of our decision making.




Very True: I was recently speaking to a lovely young doctor about the ways in which our brains processes visual information. Generally speaking, we get 70% of our information from 'common sense' processing. For example, that thingo has two arms, two legs, and a head: Hey! must be a person!. But the other 30% percent comes from specialized processing. Gee, that's my dad, because his nose juts out at an angle of so-and-so and such and such or gee, that's my uncle, because his nose juts out at this other-angle.

One or the other type of processing, alone, is insufficient.

It important to be able to recognize both broad patterns and nuance. We're hardwired for general pattern recognition: that's how we know that big thingos with sharp teeth are gonna eat us. But the nuanced stuff has to be learned: that's why we know that the red berries are ok to eat, but the yellow ones will kill ya.

Intuitively, at a common sense level, this makes sense to me.

M
[ October 19, 2004: Message edited by: Max Habibi ]
 
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ever thought that the training schools give kids to become shallow and susceptible to propaganda and commercials may be deliberate policy?

Schools are under government and corporate control after all. The last thing governments and corporate marketing departments want people to do is be critical about the information they provide.

Good example of the results is this:
Few years ago I noticed a store sign advertising sale on handbags. They were (not joking) "was 29.95 NOW 39.95".
The number of customers (mainly female, this being a female style bag) trying to push themselves to the stack of bags and heading to the payment counter was staggering.

"Now up to 30% off" indeed doesn't have to mean the entire stock is discounted. Having one item in the entire store discounted 30% and actually upping the price of the rest to compensate makes sure you're telling the truth.
Yet those overpriced items sell faster than they did at the lower initial prices just because that sign screams of discounts (the actual discounted items are things that are most likely complete failures to sell and calculated to be so).

"Now better" better than what? Better than the product you told me last week was perfect? If so I want my money back now please because you lied to me.

"Scientifically tested" (a fav on cosmetics where testing is after all mandatory). What the results of those tests were is never told. Maybe (likely) all the test concluded was that it was safe for use by humans.

And the masterstroke: branded clothes and stuff selling for top dollar.
Put the name of a company on a $5 T-shirt (for example) noone wanted and suddenly it will sell faster than you can produce them at $25.
 
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Originally posted by Ernest Friedman-Hill:
My personal theory is the blame goes to the commercial media's internalization and perversion of the rock-and-roll era's coda, the "Never mind the bollocks" nihilism that started with the Who's Autodestruction and culminated in Sid Vicious' own autodestruction. That kind of over-the-top adolescent disrespect, distrust of authority, and violent self-pardody ...



Yes, the people who condemned music's rock-and-roll revolution remain unappreciated to this day. Ridiculed as old fogies, they were actually quite perceptive and wise.
 
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The result of this miseducation, of course, is that some people are incapable of forming coherent arguments: or for that matter, coherent statements.

They will make statement based on nonsense assumptions, then proceed to expound from there, as if statements based on nonsense can have any merit. It's a depressing state of affairs.
 
Jeroen Wenting
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Originally posted by Max Habibi:
The result of this miseducation, of course, is that some people are incapable of forming coherent arguments: or for that matter, coherent statements.

They will make statement based on nonsense assumptions, then proceed to expound from there, as if statements based on nonsense can have any merit. It's a depressing state of affairs.



it's a ploy to get people to believe in marketing statements and campaign promises which they'd immediately recognise as lies were they to be able to think for themselves.
 
Frank Silbermann
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[Not nice, and drifting into a political editorial: Javaranch is an inappropriate place for such]
[ October 21, 2004: Message edited by: Max Habibi ]
 
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Originally posted by Max Habibi:

Why? Because we're training our students to be so results focused that we're not training them to learn. We don't reward curiosity, we find ourselves annoyed by it.
What you generally get as a result, IMO, are people who can't tell the difference between clever arguments and correct ones: hence, ripe pickings for advertisers.



Not only for advertizers - anyone, and it scares sometimes.

Not only logic, people nowadays lack even common knowlege.

I've met people in US who didnt know how pumpkin grows and were proud of it - because they are not villagers. They probably consume pumpkins more than anyone in the world and they never cared how it grows?
Once I found out that most of my co-workers didn't know that fruit trees have flower before they turn to fruits. I went asking everyone same question - about half didn't know that.
Ask your american co-workers what is Tadjikistan or Kazakhstan. Not many even heard those names.
 
Frank Silbermann
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Originally posted by Frank Silbermann:
[Not nice, and drifting into a political editorial: Javaranch is an inappropriate place for such]

[ October 21, 2004: Message edited by: Max Habibi ]


[ October 21, 2004: Message edited by: Max Habibi ]
 
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True. I remember watching an Anti-War rally..

A reporter gave a protestor the world map, and asked him to point out where Iraq is. The protester hesitated for a few seconds and said "I don't care where it is, But NO WAR!" ..

(BTW, I agree on the No War principle)
 
Max Habibi
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Guys, let's make an effort to salvage this thread. It is now on orange alert, so no more even semi political stuff.

Thanks,
M
 
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I just remembered one that I wish were in schools... Systems Thinking.

http://www.thinking.net/Systems_Thinking/systems_thinking.html

I'd love to see kids do simulations (give them Sim City to play with) and do a tragedy of the commons and that kind of thing... to think about cause and effect in dynamic systems.

cheers,
Kathy
 
Max Habibi
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That's a great idea: I remember thinking that the game Black and White would have been a great way to teach kids about society.
 
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Posted by Thomas Paul:

Have you seen Finding Nemo?


I think you may have inadvertently made Ernest's point, Thomas. Finding Nemo IS a good movie - it represents the best of what we have today. But I don't think it tops the average movie from the 40's or 50's for witty dialog. I just saw Bogart in The Maltese Falcon on Turner Classic Movies - you should rent this sometime if you haven't seen it (admittedly it's not an average movie).

Or compare the novels of today with Shakespeare or Dickens. In terms of the richness of expression, our use of language has become flat in comparison.

I saw a science fiction movie - I can't remember the name - where people would greet each other with a set phrase "Hi-how-are-you-I'm-fine-thank-you-very-much" rattled off quickly. We're becoming like that, I think.
 
Alan Wanwierd
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Originally posted by Jeff Fisher:
I saw a science fiction movie - I can't remember the name - where people would greet each other with a set phrase "Hi-how-are-you-I'm-fine-thank-you-very-much" rattled off quickly. We're becoming like that, I think.



Thats PRECISELY what we've become! Here in Australia shop assistants often seem to greet their customers with an inane grin and "How are you today?". The obligatory response is of course "Good, thanks..." and then move on quickly past the exchange of pleasantries to order whatever you want. But I make a point of frequently breaking protocol and answering the question with more specific detail than they expect! I keep having VERY VERY confused staff in McD's when I respond to their greeting with "Tired, irtated and hungry - can I get something to eat?".. This seems to be so off the scale in terms of making them think that they tend to freeze in a wild panic!
[ October 21, 2004: Message edited by: Adrian Wallace ]
 
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Kathy Sierra:

I just remembered one that I wish were in schools... Systems Thinking.

http://www.thinking.net/Systems_Thinking/systems_thinking.html

I'd love to see kids do simulations (give them Sim City to play with) and do a tragedy of the commons and that kind of thing... to think about cause and effect in dynamic systems.


Good god, Kathy, what are you thinking? Having people actually understand the full ramifications of their actions rather than just assuming that, say, programs intended to achieve a certain result won't any unintended side effects that totally swamp the initial intent? Soon people would be examining all sides of all issues and making decisions based on how the world actually worked, rather than being pressured into voting a certain way just because all their friends were voting that way. Democracy as we know it would fall apart!
[ October 22, 2004: Message edited by: Warren Dew ]
 
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Originally posted by Warren Dew:
Having people actually understand the full ramifications of their actions rather than just assuming that, say, programs intended to achieve a certain result won't have any unintended side effects that totally swamp the initial intent?



Actually, I just want my daughter to appreciate that not going to the concert on Saturday is a result of her not having done the dishes on Tuesday

Today: the dishes.


Tomorrow: the war on drugs
 
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Originally posted by Ernest Friedman-Hill:
An enormous wave of anti-intellectualism has swept over the U.S. in the last few decades. I think Max's comments about people actually distrusting those capable of applying critical thinking or of constructing a valid argument are spot-on.

My personal theory is the blame goes to the commercial media's internalization and perversion of the rock-and-roll era's coda, the "Never mind the bollocks" nihilism that started with the Who's Autodestruction and culminated in Sid Vicious' own autodestruction.



Well put, although there has been some rightful anti-elitism that has been mistaken for anti-intellectualism.

[ cranky comments deleted by Jeff ... replace with: ]

Screw the establishment!

-j-
[ October 22, 2004: Message edited by: Jeff Langr ]
 
Thomas Paul
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Originally posted by Jeff Fisher:
Posted by Thomas Paul:
I think you may have inadvertently made Ernest's point, Thomas. Finding Nemo IS a good movie - it represents the best of what we have today. But I don't think it tops the average movie from the 40's or 50's for witty dialog. I just saw Bogart in The Maltese Falcon on Turner Classic Movies - you should rent this sometime if you haven't seen it (admittedly it's not an average movie).

Or compare the novels of today with Shakespeare or Dickens. In terms of the richness of expression, our use of language has become flat in comparison.

I saw a science fiction movie - I can't remember the name - where people would greet each other with a set phrase "Hi-how-are-you-I'm-fine-thank-you-very-much" rattled off quickly. We're becoming like that, I think.




I think you are making the mistake of comparing the best of yesteryear with the average of today. For every Maltese Falcon trhere were 500 mindless pieces of crap made in the 30's. Don't compare Dickens with Joan Collins. Compare him with Umberto Eco.
 
Jeff Langr
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or, as Carl Sagan put it with more eloquence, "mistrust arguments from authority."

-j-
 
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