He said He would return - Jesus Christ - Today?

[Sue Graham]

He said He would RETURN - JESUS CHRIST - http://www.free-hoster.com/jesus/ - http://www.free-hoster.com/jesus/
[ January 02, 2005: Message edited by: Michael Ernest ]

[Mapraputa Is]

"Jesus said if you look with lust, you have committed adultery in your heart. "

... like if this was a bad thing!

[Mapraputa Is]

"Has anyone ever told you how simple it is to go to Heaven when this life is over?"

No, all they said to me was that me being an atheist, my life is wasted!

"The gift of God is eternal life in Heaven. He gives the gift of salvation freely to all who ask, no matter how late in their lives nor how sinful they have been."

Just S0 easy? Even we, damned atheists, have to work harder! :roll:

[peter wooster]

Originally posted by Mapraputa Is:
"Has anyone ever told you how simple it is to go to Heaven when this life is over?"

No, all they said to me was that me being an atheist, my life is wasted!

"The gift of God is eternal life in Heaven. He gives the gift of salvation freely to all who ask, no matter how late in their lives nor how sinful they have been."

Just S0 easy? Even we, damned atheists, have to work harder! :roll:

I'm still waiting for that war between the Atheists and the Agnostics.

[Ellen Zhao]

Originally posted by peter wooster:

I'm still waiting for that war between the Atheists and the Agnostics.

I guess atheists and agnostics seldom had any war? Me an atheist, but I'm hosting agnostics' stuff at my place.

[Jim Yingst]

We have occasional skirmishes to determine where the border lies exactly, but it seems these are typically instigated by theists, and are seldom an issue among atheists and agnostics themselves. We all generally get along pretty well.
[ January 01, 2005: Message edited by: Jim Yingst ]

[Mapraputa Is]

The Bible speaks of two places that we will spend eternity, either Heaven or Hell (a place of eternal torment). Wouldn't it be great to know beyond a shadow of a doubt that no matter what happens from this day forward you are Heaven bound? Oh friend, it would be terrible to die and go to Hell when all you have to do is accept Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Saviour.

People like you are disgrace for Christianity. And these are the mildest words I have.
[ January 01, 2005: Message edited by: Mapraputa Is ]

[Jayesh Lalwani]

Agnostics dont fight the atheists because they are still waiting for proof that atheists exist

[Nick George]

Originally posted by Mapraputa Is:


People like you are disgrace for Christianity. And these are the mildest words I have.

Sounds like somebody hasn't accepted Jesus as their personal savior.

[peter wooster]

I find any religion that condemns the vast majority of humanity to eternal damnation to be suspect. I don't know how they can justify this as the policy of an all loving god. I find the first of the Mahayana Buddist Bodhisatva vows to be much more in keeping.

All beings, without number, I vow to liberate

But then Buddists are only a small step away from humanists, agnostics, and atheists. Instead of putting most of humanity down, they vow to raise them up.
[ January 01, 2005: Message edited by: peter wooster ]

[Helen Thomas]

Originally posted by Mapraputa Is:
"Jesus said if you look with lust, you have committed adultery in your heart. "

... like if this was a bad thing!

He also said that he who has not sinned, let him or her throw the first stone.
Be fair. Jesus may have had a girlfriend, possibly Mary Magdalene.
[ January 02, 2005: Message edited by: Helen Thomas ]

[Helen Thomas]

Originally posted by Mapraputa Is:
"Has anyone ever told you how simple it is to go to Heaven when this life is over?"

No, all they said to me was that me being an atheist, my life is wasted!

He often said, be like a little child. And "Let the Little Children Come Unto Me". That means not just the little children, but everyone. Just be trusting like a little child.

"The gift of God is eternal life in Heaven. He gives the gift of salvation freely to all who ask, no matter how late in their lives nor how sinful they have been."

Just S0 easy? Even we, damned atheists, have to work harder! :roll: [/qb]

Be like a little child ready to accept a gift.
Hmmm, feel like getting on a pulpit today.

He also said "Love One Another" , so we theists and semi-theists(darn, this sinning is so difficult to give up) have to love you atheists and agnostics.
[ January 02, 2005: Message edited by: Helen Thomas ]

[Helen Thomas]

Originally posted by Mapraputa Is:
The Bible speaks of two places that we will spend eternity, either Heaven or Hell (a place of eternal torment). Wouldn't it be great to know beyond a shadow of a doubt that no matter what happens from this day forward you are Heaven bound? Oh friend, it would be terrible to die and go to Hell when all you have to do is accept Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Saviour.

People like you are disgrace for Christianity. And these are the mildest words I have.

My mother is a believer and my father isn't totally convinced. They agree on most things but the Bible. It's very painfull to watch the rift, especially at this time of their life. My mother, like this person you criticise, has made it her mission to do all she can to help my father believe, but he thinks he is not good enough because he isn't proud of all he has done with his life.He basically is a very good person. She is making this humongous effort because she wants to spend eternity with him. It would be so much easier for her not to bother, and live what she believes is a lie.. To her each day he doesn't believe is the same as if he committed adultery that day, only a thousand times much worse, because the prize at stake is not just a marriage ...


Now Map, I wouldn't care whether or not I spend eternity with you (it would be nice but I wouldn't lose a leg and an arm).Heck my mother probably won't either. But this person who doesn't even know you has something of Jesus in them and, like Jesus, appears to care deeply about your soul, and in all likelihood , would give up their own earthly life so you can have eternal life.. Don't knock that kind of love..

About a year ago I posted about losing a friend, who choked on a sandwich.
He lived and breathed Jesus - his consiousness was such he was in pain all the time about not helping/saving people. He died aged just around 30. In his short life he gave up a promising career at British Airways , started after completing his education at London School of Economics and starting as a Chartered Accountant, to work with the homeless full-time. You'd find him at BAA airports trying to help the homeless along the airports runways.

It's people like him and my mother whom I was lucky to meet and have, who help me believe. Not that I'm much of a testament.
[ January 02, 2005: Message edited by: Helen Thomas ]

[Mapraputa Is]

Helen: but this person who doesn't even know you has something of Jesus in them and, like Jesus, appears to care deeply about your soul, and in all likelihood , would give up their life so you can have eternal life.. Don't knock that kind of love.

But I will, because human's love is so much above all your believers types can dream up.

Here is a song for you, Helen.

http://www.mycgiserver.com/~mapraputa/songs/ you_were.mp3

What you once were -- you still are.

Why, why -- in your losts
You wanted to accuse me?
My only fault is that
I am too weak to forget you.

My destiny
With your destiny
Let's say I couldn�t tie
But I lived with you only -
I was waiting for you the whole war.

I was waiting for the time
When you'll be back
And your accusations are so bitter
So bitter for me, my loved.

And you didn't even looked at me
-- rushed away.
What you were -- you still are,
And you are so precious for me because of this!

[Helen Thomas]

That is a beautiful song, Map.

The love of the woman for her lost (and living ?) lover is sad and a very human condition. What about the unconditional love of a stranger so that they lay down their life for someone else, or someone else's child ?
That is so inexplicable and in my eyes, so beautiful. Real stories in Readers Digest move me so much.
To believe in love between a man and woman is a gift.Another gift is to believe that your neighbour or a perfect stranger can go out of their way and do the same for you as they would their loved ones. A difficult gift to accept or even rely on. But it is easier, if one also goes out of their way to help a neighbour or stranger, to believe that one has the gift to give. I am not preaching to you - I've seen you give so much of yourself here.
You are a good giver. But I'd say don't be too proud or afraid to take. Don't try and go it alone. I say this as much to you as to myself.

Sometimes we'll be disappointed and at other times, disappoint others. But let's pick ourselves up and try again.
[ January 02, 2005: Message edited by: Helen Thomas ]

[Helen Thomas]

To follow on the story of the parents

My sister-in-law is a believer and recently she said that one of her greatest gifts is that she found my brother, who is a believer. They don't have to struggle between themselves over their beliefs. They both live and work in South Africa and this Christmas did some mission work in Ethiopia. Thay also think they are very lucky to be living in South Africa where they have a chance to live openly with their beliefs. They don't feel they have the same liberty in the UK. They look and act like ordinary people and don't live like saints all the time(i.e. they can throw a good party), but believe me each day, they lay down their lives and their children's lives for what they believe in, and try to help people.

Believe me a believer's life is hard and not to be undertaken lightly.
But please don't knock it...

Those who are lucky enough to be taught early will have an easier time with their beliefs. People like me who are older semi-believers find it very difficult to follow a religious pathway. I think this is true of any religious belief.

My brother's son, aged 11, used to think his father was a nutter for risking his life when he goes to his practice in a township weekly, but now is pretty proud of his father. He plays with some of the happier patients. The question came up of adopting one of his playmates but in their hearts they felt the child was much better off in his own environment surrounded by the love of the extended family. They give as much support with school fees and occassional requests for money. They do this on top of full time jobs but it won't be possible without the support of their multi-ethnic Church.
And certainly not without their belief.
[ January 02, 2005: Message edited by: Helen Thomas ]

[Mapraputa Is]

There is a book I read when I was a child.

It's about a Lenigrad's girl, who had to write in concrete, because her handwriting was so similar to Tanya Savicheva.

They wanted to have Tanya's diary in concrete.

"Genya died 28 December, 12:30 morning 1941 г."

"Grandmother died 25 January, 3 noon, 1942 г."

"Leka died 17 March, 5 hour in the morning, 1942 г."

"Uncle Vasya died 13 April, 02 at night 1942 г."

"Uncle Lesha 10 May 04 at night. 1942г."

"Mom 13 May, 7.30, 1942 года"

"All Savichevy died"

"Only Tanya is left"

The girl didn't survive the war.

1/3 of Leningrad died during the blockade. They carried bodies to the Piscarevskoe cemetery, if they they still had energy to carry bodies..

[Helen Thomas]

They sadly don't teach us much Russian history at schools. You could take it as a specialist subject at University.

Why do Wars happen ? Where was God in all that ? Why do innocent people and children suffer ? Surely that should be enough incentive for God and man not to allow wars ? Often wars are carried out in the name of God, but they really are the act of men, acting under their own free will.

A good father cannot stop (He'd be wrong if he did) a child from moving from point A to point B, thogh he'd pray for safety. to avoid trouble and deprive the child of it's learning capability. He would provide some rules and judge the child accordingly. The child can plead it's case if it ran into trouble. Trust between a father and child as we know is a very tenuous thing. Let a child down early on and it will never readily trust anyone and it is very difficult for the child to learn to trust again. Sometimes even the father gives up this gargantuan task and runs away. (There's a lot to be said for family extended and immediate that holds a family together.) Believers think that the Father is always but a prayer away, though the answers may not be what you, the child, wants to hear.

Sometimes a father would knowingly have to let the child fail on the course it has set it's heart on.

Parable of the Prodigal Son
KJV Luke 15:11-32
(11) And he said, A certain man had two sons:
(12) And the younger of them said to his father, Father, give me the portion of goods that falleth to me. And he divided unto them his living.
(13) And not many days after the younger son gathered all together, and took his journey into a far country, and there wasted his substance with riotous living.
(14) And when he had spent all, there arose a mighty famine in that land; and he began to be in want.
(15) And he went and joined himself to a citizen of that country; and he sent him into his fields to feed swine.
(16) And he would fain have filled his belly with the husks that the swine did eat: and no man gave unto him.
(17) And when he came to himself, he said, How many hired servants of my father's have bread enough and to spare, and I perish with hunger!
(18) I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee,
(19) And am no more worthy to be called thy son: make me as one of thy hired servants.
(20) And he arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him.
(21) And the son said unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in thy sight, and am no more worthy to be called thy son.
(22) But the father said to his servants, Bring forth the best robe, and put it on him; and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet:
(23) And bring hither the fatted calf, and kill it; and let us eat, and be merry:
(24) For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.
(25) Now his elder son was in the field: and as he came and drew nigh to the house, he heard musick and dancing.
(26) And he called one of the servants, and asked what these things meant.
(27) And he said unto him, Thy brother is come; and thy father hath killed the fatted calf, because he hath received him safe and sound.
(28) And he was angry, and would not go in: therefore came his father out, and intreated him.
(29) And he answering said to his father, Lo, these many years do I serve thee, neither transgressed I at any time thy commandment: and yet thou never gavest me a kid, that I might make merry with my friends:
(30) But as soon as this thy son was come, which hath devoured thy living with harlots, thou hast killed for him the fatted calf.
(31) And he said unto him, Son, thou art ever with me, and all that I have is thine.
(32) It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found.

Map, was there no trial in Russia to judge war criminals ? Heck, where do you start! Churchill might even have looked like a prime suspect in a Russian court.
[ January 02, 2005: Message edited by: Helen Thomas ]

[R K Singh]

Originally posted by Sue Graham:
http://www.free-hoster.com/jesus/

After a long time I had good laugh ... (true, I did not have time to read full page, but whatever I read was good enough to put a smile back on my face.)

Thanks for the links, Sue.

[Ashok Mash]

Did anyone find this book, Dan Brown's The Da Vinci Code interesting?

IMHO, its a very poor and very predictable story built around a very thought provoking set of theories. Anyone think the world will give up organised (and the other kind) religion and go back to the pagan ways when Venus era starts soon?
[ January 02, 2005: Message edited by: Ashok Mash ]

[Helen Thomas]

Originally posted by R K Singh:


After a long time I had good laugh ... (true, I did not have time to read full page, but whatever I read was good enough to put a smile back on my face.)

Thanks for the links, Sue.

I don't think Sue intended you to have a laugh. If it was Krishna, Rama or Buddha would you laugh, then ?

[R K Singh]

Originally posted by Helen Thomas:
If it was Krishna, Rama or Buddha would you laugh, then ?

Yes, surely.

Why do you think it should make any difference ??

If anyone wants to compare prophet/God/Deity/etc of one religion with other prophet/God/Deity/etc, only two things are possible. Either fight/argument between followers of them or they can have good laugh. I chose later.

What I read in that page is that, writer was trying to compare Jesus with Mohammad, Buddha, Krishna etc .. so I smile and stop reading that page.

I was not laughing at Jesus, He was great Man(if only people follow him, people are more interested in Christianity than Jesus), who am I to laugh at Him.
I was laughing at writer who wasted his energy, talent and time in writing that page.
My wishes to writer, may more and more people read the page [may they read full page].

Amen.

[Helen Thomas]

Originally posted by Jim Yingst:
We have occasional skirmishes to determine where the border lies exactly, but it seems these are typically instigated by theists, and are seldom an issue among atheists and agnostics themselves. We all generally get along pretty well.

[ January 01, 2005: Message edited by: Jim Yingst ]

You mean you don't have trouble with where to put the apostrophe so you can live your life accordingly ?
[ January 02, 2005: Message edited by: Helen Thomas ]

[Helen Thomas]

Originally posted by R K Singh:


Yes, surely.

Why do you think it should make any difference ??

If anyone wants to compare prophet/God/Deity/etc of one religion with other prophet/God/Deity/etc, only two things are possible. Either fight/argument between followers of them or they can have good laugh. I chose later.

What I read in that page is that, writer was trying to compare Jesus with Mohammad, Buddha, Krishna etc .. so I smile and stop reading that page.

I was not laughing at Jesus, He was great Man(if only people follow him, people are more interested in Christianity than Jesus), who am I to laugh at Him.
I was laughing at writer who wasted his energy, talent and time in writing that page.
My wishes to writer, may more and more people read the page [may they read full page].

Amen.

I hadn't read that far down.

One issue I have is of believers holier-than-thou attitude to other religions, be it any religion. Let their lives speak for their beliefs.
Give them slack sometimes because there aren't simple answers and things go wrong. Do not persecute people because of their beliefs. Again, the task falls on to the Law courts to judge rights and wrongs, sometimes long after an event.
Don't all religions have a sort of Judgement Day when you are either re-incarnated as a less-prone-to-cause-damage being or cast down into eternal fire if you have been less than good? ..
[ January 02, 2005: Message edited by: Helen Thomas ]

[Mark Fletcher]

When I was a kid my dad took me to see "Transformers: The Movie".

I was quite upset when Optimus Prime bought the farm early on in the movie. However at the end, there was a voiceover saying that "Optimus Prime will return".

To my knowledge he hasnt made a come back yet. Which is a bit of a disappointment. So Sue, in a sense Im kinda feelin' where youre coming from

[Jeroen Wenting]

Originally posted by Helen Thomas:


He also said that he who has not sinned, let him or her throw the first stone.
Be fair. Jesus may have had a girlfriend, possibly Mary Magdalene.

Hardly likely, I'm sure my mother would have told me...
Anyway, I severely doubt the (albeit former) girlfriend of the main figure in a religion would be excommunicated for wanting to marry a heretic (which my mother was and did, she was Dutch reformed and married a Roman catholic man who was excommunicated for wanting to marry a heretic as well...).

[Helen Thomas]

This link from a scifi-forum looks good :
the principle differences in the end times in Judaism, Christianity and Islam?
[ January 02, 2005: Message edited by: Helen Thomas ]

[Helen Thomas]

Originally posted by Jeroen Wenting:


Hardly likely, I'm sure my mother would have told me...
Anyway, I severely doubt the (albeit former) girlfriend of the main figure in a religion would be excommunicated for wanting to marry a heretic (which my mother was and did, she was Dutch reformed and married a Roman catholic man who was excommunicated for wanting to marry a heretic as well...).

You mean in all probability you could be The Messiah returned !!!
:roll:

[Helen Thomas]

Originally posted by Ashok Mash:
Did anyone find this book, Dan Brown's The Da Vinci Code interesting?

IMHO, its a very poor and very predictable story built around a very thought provoking set of theories. Anyone think the world will give up organised (and the other kind) religion and go back to the pagan ways when Venus era starts soon?

[ January 02, 2005: Message edited by: Ashok Mash ]

People seem to find it interesting coming from a historical perspective rather than a religious one.

Have we/I lost the Mapper Sheriff ?
[ January 02, 2005: Message edited by: Helen Thomas ]

[Helen Thomas]

I haven't watched The Passion of The Christ yet. It's on broadband TV this week.
A must-see film I've heard.

[Gerald Davis]

Originally posted by the website:

The Bible speaks of two places that we will spend eternity, either Heaven or Hell (a place of eternal torment). Wouldn't it be great to know beyond a shadow of a doubt that no matter what happens from this day forward you are Heaven bound?

Two motives work particularly well; the fear of punishment and the hope of reward, Christianity Islam has them both. For no great religion can be successful without it.

Likewise, there is nothing that creates inertia so well as satisfaction. Never any lands to conquer, never any people to convert, never a need for fame , never any wars to fight, never any emptiness but simple pleasures. Buddhism would have inherited the earth if it wasn't for its notion of happiness and satisfaction above power and discontent but it doesn't need to because it is content and satisfied.
[ January 02, 2005: Message edited by: Gerald Davis ]

[Gerald Davis]

Sorry Helen,I was surpose to quate Originally posted by website

[Helen Thomas]

Gerald , you can change it now. It's a good quote and response.

[Joel McNary]

Originally posted by Mark Fletcher:
When I was a kid my dad took me to see "Transformers: The Movie".

I was quite upset when Optimus Prime bought the farm early on in the movie. However at the end, there was a voiceover saying that "Optimus Prime will return".

To my knowledge he hasnt made a come back yet. Which is a bit of a disappointment. So Sue, in a sense Im kinda feelin' where youre coming from

Then you perhaps missed the two-part episode entitled "The Return of Optimus Prime," where Optimus was rescued from being thrown into the sun? And I'm not talking about the new series either -- this was in the classic line.

[Warren Dew]

peter wooster:

I find the first of the Mahayana Buddist Bodhisatva vows to be much more in keeping.

All beings, without number, I vow to liberate

But then Buddists are only a small step away from humanists, agnostics, and atheists. Instead of putting most of humanity down, they vow to raise them up.

Uh ... it seems to this atheist that "raising up" others is the same kind of do-goodism that Map and others are objecting to. Especially since I kind of enjoy the wheel of life that the Buddhists want to liberate me from.

I haven't actually had any problems with Buddhists, though ... they seem to want to liberate themelves before they liberate others, and none has yet contacted me from beyond the wheel of life.
[ January 02, 2005: Message edited by: Warren Dew ]

[Warren Dew]

Ashok Mash:

Did anyone find this book, Dan Brown's The Da Vinci Code interesting?

IMHO, its a very poor and very predictable story built around a very thought provoking set of theories.

Interesting. I found it moderately good light entertainment. It was a little wordy, but did a good job with giving the reader plenty of time to work on each puzzle. I got about 2/3 of them before the protagonists did.

Anyone think the world will give up organised (and the other kind) religion and go back to the pagan ways when Venus era starts soon?

Some people are already headed back. At least that's the impression I get as the husband of a pagan priestess.

[Nick George]

erhm... Hijack attempt in progress:

I have to inquire as to how one can be an atheist. The way I see it, if there is a God, it'll be soo far and away beyond our ability to comprehend, that any kind of contemplation is idle speculation, and anything we can imagine is almost by definintion wrong. Therefor, I can't actively believe in God. But by the same rational, I cannot actively say "There is no God," for where the hell would I get that from? Just as I don't have the comprehension to say, "There is a God, and He don't want me to mix meat and dairy," I don't have the comprehension to say, "There ain't no God."

[Jim Yingst]

Well, that's part of why I consider myself to be somewhere on the border between atheism and agnosticism. I talked about this at some length on the second page of this thread.

[Helen Thomas]

Are agnostics atheists? By Bertrand Russell

[Helen Thomas]

Or even a play or book about Indictment for War Crimes in Russia ?
It's one healing process

I see this play as a healing process
http://nuclearfree.lynx.co.nz/indictment.htm
I wonder if they'll take it to Iraq..
[ January 03, 2005: Message edited by: Helen Thomas ]