How many Holidays???

[Alan Wanwierd]

Following a request to move to a new topic:

Originally posted by Adrian Wallace:
...
Out of interest - how many public holidays (and how much annual leave) does everyone get each year? It strange comparing different parts of the world:

3 that I do know (please correct me if I'm wrong!):
Australia 10 public holidays + 20 days annual leave = 30 days total
Austria 17 public holidays + 34 days annual leave = 51 days total
UK 8 public holdays + 25 days annual leave = 33 days total

gee - if only I could find a job in Vienna! - I'm told that US only have 10 days annual leave - is this really true? How come you dont all flee the country? or do you have to quit your job every year in order to take a holiday? Perhaps you have 20+ public holidays to bring conditions more into line with world standards? Is this an explanation as to why such a small percentage of Americans travel the world compared with other western nations?

[Alan Wanwierd]

Originally posted by Frank Silbermann:
Many jobs offer more vacation depending upon how long you've worked there. Ten days a year to start; fifteen days a year after five years; twenty days a year after twenty years.

Unfortunately, nowadays it's almost impossible to spend twenty years with one employer even if you want to -- due to lay-offs, mergers and acquisitions, etc. And even if you do manage it and become an executive, work pressures prevent many executives from taking the vacation they are allowed (or do they just not want to give the employer a chance to discover whether things would be better with someone else in their place).

That probably is indeed a major reason why few Americans travel the world; but let's face it, American tourists aren't usually well liked. (I recognize that exceptions are made for anti-American Americans, such as Michael Moore and Noam Chomsky.) People wrote and talked about "The Ugly American" ever since after WWII when exchange rates made all Americans rich by European standards. Later, there was the resentment that we were offering the same protection to South Vietnam and central America as to West Berlin and Australia. Nowadays American tourists get haranged about how terrible Bush is compared with good leaders like Yassar Arafat. That's not much fun.

Besides, quite a few Americans do cross the continent on holidays, going as far as from the Pacific northwest to southern Florida, or from New York City to Los Angeles (and vice-versa). How many Belgians travel to Vladivostok, or vice-versa? (I must admit that not all Americans are interested in traveling to all parts of the U.S. -- in online discussion group I have seen a few people write that they prefer to vacation in only those states that offer reciprocal recognition for their state's concealed handgun carry permit. It's not the danger -- some people simply get sentimentally attached to their weapons. It would be like leaving their dog behind.)

It's quite adventurous going to places where you have to try to understand "Do you want fries with that?" in a different regional accent.

20 yrs?!!! Wow - In Australia we get "Long Service Leave" after 10 years. This is a once off gift of 12 weeks annual leave. Unfortunately it seems highly unlikely that I will ever stay in one job for 10 years! (longest so far is 3.5yrs).

Belians may not travel to vladivostok exactly - but the number of Europeans travelling to SEAsia, Australasia, Africa & South America is noticably HUGE compared with Americans (and similarly the number of Australasians outside of their continent)..

You may be right in that that the global anti-US sentiment does make for a more hostile reception for Americans than others - but perhaps the lack of travelling and genuine cultural exchange helps fuel the xenophobia on both sides?

[kayal cox]

At my work place, I have 10 holidays (christmas, thanksgiving etc) of which 5 can be floating. I have six sick days, and 15 days of paid vacation.

But I have colleagues who have 30 days of vacation, plus 12 sick days, plus the 10 holidays. Oh, how I envy them!

[Jason Menard]

Six holidays, four floating holidays, no sick days, and I accrue 8.66 hours of leave per month (4.33 hours every two week pay period). I do know people who get 30 days leave per year and a decent amount of sick leave, but the tradeoff is usually in salary.

I believe it is reported that Americans generally work more hours than citizens in most other industrialized nations. Japan may be an exception, but I'm not really all that sure.

[Alan Wanwierd]

Originally posted by Jason Menard:
...I believe it is reported that Americans generally work more hours than citizens in most other industrialized nations.....

Doesnt that upset you and make you want to move elsewhere?

[tongue in cheek comment]
"Land of the Free"? - Doesnt sound much like it to me!
[/tongue in cheek comment]

[Jason Menard]

Originally posted by Adrian Wallace:
Unfortunately it seems highly unlikely that I will ever stay in one job for 10 years! (longest so far is 3.5yrs).

I hit my five year anniversary with y company next month. Prior to that, I stayed with the same company for 12 years (of course, it was the USAF, but I suppose that must count).

Belians may not travel to vladivostok exactly - but the number of Europeans travelling to SEAsia, Australasia, Africa & South America is noticably HUGE compared with Americans (and similarly the number of Australasians outside of their continent)..

I suspect cost and distance are certainly a factor, as well as amount of time off one can take from work, in partially explaining your observations. Not to mention, the US is large enough that there is plenty that people want to see and experience here so that travelling out of state fills a similar need to that of a European travelling abroad.

You may be right in that that the global anti-US sentiment does make for a more hostile reception for Americans than others - but perhaps the lack of travelling and genuine cultural exchange helps fuel the xenophobia on both sides?

A friend of mine toured around Europe for a couple of weeks last August or September. She was travelling alone and was getting hit on constantly by the locals to the point it was really creeping her out. She spent alot of her time in France, and often when people found out she was American (she's not one of those idiots who would pretend to be Canadian or something), they would insist on telling her their political views despite the fact she wasn't remotely interested. Now she's pretty liberal, but to hear her tell it, they were doing a good job offending her. Many people were also insistant about finding out how she was going to vote, which if you aren't aware, is generally a fairly personal thing that most Americans aren't willing to disclose to strangers (and may not disclose to family members).

[Guy Allard]

Originally posted by Adrian Wallace:


Doesnt that upset you and make you want to move elsewhere?

[tongue in cheek comment]
"Land of the Free"? - Doesnt sound much like it to me!
[/tongue in cheek comment]

No, it makes me want to revolt.

The "land of the free" stuff is exactly that, pure Bull S$#%

G.

[Jason Menard]

Originally posted by Adrian Wallace:
Doesnt that upset you and make you want to move elsewhere?

Not particularly. I've spent over six years outside of the US, and while I enjoyed it for the most part, three years in any one spot outside the US was about the limit for me. Of course, two years in Eastern New Mexico / West Texas was the limit for me too.

[Alan Wanwierd]

Originally posted by Jason Menard:
... no sick days, ... I do know people - decent amount of sick leave, ...

Interesting that several of you have quoted "sick days" in a discussion about holidays.. Can you chose to take your sick days in one go so you can get away? Or do sick days need to be backed up with doctors certs? (as they do here in Australia).

Incidentally, I wasnt even aware of the concept of accruing sick leave until I left the UK -until that time if I was sick I just didnt go in (I think there was a limit of how much you could take, but it was more than 3 months, so not really a concern). Now I am restricted to a max 10 days a year before pay gets withheld which seems pretty harsh if you get genuinely ill!

[Alan Wanwierd]

Originally posted by Jason Menard:
I suspect cost and distance are certainly a factor..

If economics were the main determining factor then surely there would be more Americans abroad compared with Australiasians and a similar number to Europeans? ..comparing Europeans going to SE Asia and Americans going to SEAsia the economic and distance factors are (I would have thought) very similar.

Even in South America - where travel times from US would be much less than from Europe or Australia - still Americans are very underrepresented in the tourist numbers.

.... Not to mention, the US is large enough that there is plenty that people want to see and experience here so that travelling out of state fills a similar need to that of a European travelling abroad...

You dont think that Europe is sufficiently large for the same logic to apply? Surely Europe has at _least_ as wide a range of cultures, geographic features and climates as US?..but yet still Europeans indulge in a great deal of intercontinental travel to "broaden horizons", learn about different cultures and experience different things to an extent that does not happen from US.
[ January 20, 2005: Message edited by: Adrian Wallace ]

[Thomas Paul]

Originally posted by Adrian Wallace:
.but yet still Europeans indulge in a great deal of intercontinental travel to "broaden horizons", learn about different cultures and experience different things to an extent that does not happen from US.

We don't have to... we stay at home and the world comes to us. More than 40% of the population of NYC was born outside the US. You might think that spending two weeks on a beach having a "native" bring you cocktails teaches you about foreign culture but we live with foreign culture every day.

[Jason Menard]

Originally posted by Adrian Wallace:
comparing Europeans going to SE Asia and Americans going to SEAsia the economic and distance factors are (I would have thought) very similar.

Prices for flights departing on 2/21/05 and returning on 2/28/05

London - Jakarta roundtrip: Best price using expedia.co.uk 408.20 GBP (762.53 USD), Total duration: 16hr 35min one way

New York - Jakarta roundtrip: Best price using expedia.com 1,242.60 USD, Total duration: 25hr 5mn one way

[Jason Menard]

As I said before, Europeans generally have far more leisure time than Americans. Less vacation means more time working and less time able to travel around the world. No offense, but if I have about a week to take a trip (I rarely have enough leave saved at one time to spend two weeks at once), I don't want to spend most of it on airplanes and in airports. If I want to go somewhere with less hassle so that I can maximize my free time, I'm going to Las Vegas, New Orleans, New York, Boston, Washington DC, San Antonio, San Francisco, Miami, or Orlando. I only have to spend a few hours on a plane and the cost will be *far* cheaper.

[Alan Wanwierd]

Me thinks this is going off topic a bit!...

Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
... we stay at home and the world comes to us. More than 40% of the population of NYC was born outside the US. You might think that spending two weeks on a beach having a "native" bring you cocktails teaches you about foreign culture but we live with foreign culture every day.

I find that attitude EXTREMELY offensive and it really makes my toes curl hearing it expressed! (I hope and assume that it was intended only half seriously)

a) The whole "world comes to us" attitude just sounds arrogant. Europe has massive immigrant populations too, Australia has historically been built very mucy by immigrant populations. The assertion that NYC has high immigrant populations therefore you experience alsorts of cultures is just weak. Immigrant populations are not the same as local ones and are immensly effected by the community they exist in. I have no idea what percentage of London residents were born in UK, but despite London being regarded as a truly multi-culturual society those seeking a new experience will invariably head overseas.

b) The tourism I had in mind was not so much the beach-package style holidays (which I accept is probably a uniform experience whatever the location), but ones where interaction does accur: Playing backgammon with a felluca captain in Luxor, doing the shopping in a village shop in rural Malawi, negotiating charter of a small boat in the Philippines and talking to the captain about his fishing business, discussing life with 6yr old street kids in Lima etc etc. These are the experiences that the western traveller is increasingly seeking.

I accept that this type of traveller is still in the minority - but its a fast growing minority... of course the places and people visited by such travellers are effected and changed by such visits (so it cant be considered a trully authentic cultural immersion) , but at least the traveller is attempting to increase their understanding and experience of the destination.

[Jim Yingst]

[Adrian]: I find that attitude EXTREMELY offensive

Then maybe you shouldn't have made your sarcastic "land of the free" comment. :roll:

I suspect this thread will probably be closed soon. If it isn't, it will be because the participants on all sides decided to put some effort into not offending (or taking offense at) the other parties unnecessarily.

Good luck.
[ January 20, 2005: Message edited by: Jim Yingst ]

[Alan Wanwierd]

Sorry - OK (see thread on offending for meta-debate!)

wheres the ::whiteflag:: smiley icon? (Perhaps we need one?)

Anyway - back to topic OUTSIDE of USA - how many holidays do people get? Lets here from the R.O.W!

[Chris Baron]

In german wikipedia i found this list of the average payed holidays in 2003 for some countries:

Sweden 33
Netherlands 31,5
Danmark 30
Germany 29,1
Italy28
Luxembourg 28
Austria 25
Finland 25
France 25
Greece 23
Ireland 20
Switzerland 20
Japan 18
USA 12

In Germany the legal minimum is 27 days up to 30 days if you are 30 yo. or older.
Public Holidays minimum is 8, depending on the federal country. The catholic south has 1-2 days more.
But a lot of them met the weekend in 2004 :roll:

cb

[Richard Hawkes]

S Korea gets about 10 or 12 public holidays, plus 7 or 10 paid leave days depending on the year and the size of the company and a host of other complicated rules designed to deter you from taking holidays. If you don't work for a big company you might get about 5 days holidays a year. The old lady that works in her local shop is there 7-11 everyday. I've noticed it closed about one day a year. And even if you do work for a big company there is tremendous pressure not to use all your vacation allowance because everyone is scared (literally) of appearing lazy.

In the North, everyday is a holiday in service to Dear Leader.

[Dave Lenton]

Originally posted by Jason Menard:

I suspect cost and distance are certainly a factor, as well as amount of time off one can take from work, in partially explaining your observations. Not to mention, the US is large enough that there is plenty that people want to see and experience here so that travelling out of state fills a similar need to that of a European travelling abroad.

A lot of the motivation for Europeans to travel abroad is to experience other cultures as well as see different geographical locations. Europe is particularly lucky in that it has an enormous amount of very different cultures all crammed in close together, and a lot of Europeans take advantage of that.

I suppose that seeing different cultures is a lot harder in the US as there just aren't as many different countries that can be reached cheaply and quickly. In Europe there is a very good rail and road network connecting most of the countries, so its fairly cheap to travel around. Its probably a lot cheaper to travel by road to visit three different countries in Europe then to visit three different countries in North America by road .

I remember taking the a coach to Germany once - I had breakfast in London, a mid morning break in France, lunch in Belgium and dinner in Germany (I have to say that the service station in Belgium was wonderful, far better than others I've seen in other countries). Completely opposite to that was an American friend of my family who was moving from San Francisco to New Orleans, and driving between the two. This didn't initially sound like a lot, but then I realised that the distance was not much different to driving from one end of Europe to another.

[Frank Silbermann]

I cannot see how one can get much understanding from traveling, unless one first reads about the history and culture one is visiting and maybe studies the language a little. Most Americans don't like to read. They prefer to watch ballgames, or to take a second job on weekends or evenings to pay off that new car.

Throughout our history and all of our immigrations, it usually wasn't the most intellectual people who chose to come here. It was the people who couldn't make it back in the old country who came.

It's amazing the success America has had, given the kind of people who came here. Fortunately, the rules were written by people who arrived during the time of the 17th century English and Scottish liberal philosophers. So while Europeans moved on to newer but inferior ideas, Americans tended to stick with the superior ideas of that particular age.

[kayal cox]

Frank: Throughout our history and all of our immigrations, it usually wasn't the most intellectual people who chose to come here. It was the people who couldn't make it back in the old country who came.

It's amazing the success America has had, given the kind of people who came here.

It would be good if you can explain this further. I am tempted to write more, but I hope you can clarify your position.

Frank: Fortunately, the rules were written by people who arrived during the time of the 17th century English and Scottish liberal philosophers. So while Europeans moved on to newer but inferior ideas, Americans tended to stick with the superior ideas of that particular age.

This is another thing that is quite new to me...!
[ January 21, 2005: Message edited by: kayal cox ]

[Thomas Paul]

Originally posted by Frank Silbermann:
It's amazing the success America has had, given the kind of people who came here.

What does this say about Australia?

[Frank Silbermann]

Frank: Throughout our history and all of our immigrations, it usually wasn't the most intellectual people who chose to come here. It was the people who couldn't make it back in the old country who came.

It's amazing the success America has had, given the kind of people who came here.

Originally posted by kayal cox: It would be good if you can explain this further. I am tempted to write more, but I hope you can clarify your position.

Most of the British who came here were propertyless peasants who saw an opportunity to become landowners. Most of the Irish who came here were the tenant farmers fleeing starvation -- not the upper-classes. Most of the Italians who came were from southern Italy and Sicily -- the 3rd-world portion of Italy. Most of the Jews who came were those who couldn't earn a living in Russia, and who had not achieved any sort of intellectual stature within rabbinical circles. We've gotten mostly the poorest from Puerto Rico and Mexico. The immigrants from India and Cuba tended to be from educated and successful classes in their home countries; those are a couple of exceptions.

Frank: Fortunately, the rules were written by people who arrived during the time of the 17th century English and Scottish liberal philosophers. So while Europeans moved on to newer but inferior ideas, Americans tended to stick with the superior ideas of that particular age.

This is another thing that is quite new to me...!

Our institutions and laws were written by people influenced by realistic idealists (a rare combination!) such as John Locke, rather than the destructives ideas of Marx and Nietsche.
[ January 21, 2005: Message edited by: Frank Silbermann ]

[Alan Wanwierd]

Originallyposted by Thomas Paul:
What does this say about Australia?

There are parallels between US and Australia - but an important destinction is that Australian society is approx. 100 years later than American.

The fact that by the time Australian society was formed, the political thinking of the day had moved on perhaps explains why Australia has inheritted a more "left-ish" political outlook.

Another key difference between the two countries in their development would be that the earliy American settlers were (I think - and I'm sure I'll be corrected if I'm wrong) a puritanical protestant christians. The resultant society being very much shaped by some of these values. Max Weber (1904) suggests that these protestant values were exactly those that best developed a vibrant capitalist econonmy.

Australia, with less religious zeal, perhaps did not have so much the required drive and therefore became less economically successful.

In response to Franks "Liberalism=good, Socialism=bad" arguement I'd say that its a tribute to Australias modern society with a supportive welfare system that every year the list of "Most Livable Cities in the World" to live in contains more Australian cities in top 10 than any other country.

Last years results (http://theage.com.au/articles/2004/02/06/1075854028808.html?oneclick=true):
(Notice that all the countries listed in the top 10 are seem to be those with a supportive welfare system. Scandinavian countries seems very highly rated - and have probably the best social welfare systmes in the world)

1= Melbourne
1= Vancouver
1= Vienna
4 Perth
5 Geneva
6= Adelaide
6= Brisbane
6= Copenhagen
6= Montreal
6= Oslo
6= Sydney
6= Zurich
13= Helsinki
13= Stockholm
13= Toronto
[ January 23, 2005: Message edited by: Adrian Wallace ]

[John Smith]

Scandinavian countries seems very highly rated - and have probably the best social welfare systmes in the world

I'll tell you, it's unreal. The good Scandinavian governments feed their citizens from the spoon, give 'em free education and medical care, provide them with the retirement income, and look at those ungrateful Scandinavian citizens: their suicide rate is the highest in the world! How's that for "the most livable" cities/countries?

[Alan Wanwierd]

Originally posted by John Smith:
... their suicide rate is the highest in the world! ..

I believe the usual explanation for this is Latitude... Not enough sunlight during winter leading to increased risk of depression and seasonally linked bi-polar disorders.

If so we should find similar suicide stats in the notherly latitudes of Canada, Alaska & Russia - Anybody care to research this (I cant be bothered!)

[Dave Lenton]

Originally posted by Frank Silbermann:
Fortunately, the rules were written by people who arrived during the time of the 17th century English and Scottish liberal philosophers. So while Europeans moved on to newer but inferior ideas, Americans tended to stick with the superior ideas of that particular age.

Is that a bit tongue in cheek or serious?! I very much doubt that the political and philosophical ideas and ideologies are the same in modern America as they were in 17th centaury America. In certain areas American philosophy has changed and improved a lot - there's no longer slavery, open racism or people carrying around rifles in the street. All would have been seen as perfectly good ideas in 17th centaury but would not now.

Saying that Europeans have moved on to new and inferior ideas is a bit vague. Europe is made up of so many different cultures that its hard to describe European ideas as a single thing - just about every country has different values and philosophies, some good and some bad. Even those that are theoretically politically similar are very different - France, Germany and the UK each have very different political ideologies.

Overall I doubt if either Europeans or Americans have significantly superior or inferior ideas to each other.

[Jeroen Wenting]

Originally posted by Chris Baron:
In german wikipedia i found this list of the average payed holidays in 2003 for some countries:

Netherlands 31,5

In Germany the legal minimum is 27 days up to 30 days if you are 30 yo. or older.
Public Holidays minimum is 8, depending on the federal country. The catholic south has 1-2 days more.
But a lot of them met the weekend in 2004 :roll:

cb

please tell me what company that is?
The legal limit is 23 days here for a fulltime job.
Public holidays are added to that, typically 3-5 a year (depending on how the weekends work out, last year we had very few and no compensation).
Companies are free of course to offer more.

For example:
I get 25 days a year and the company dictates 2 more during which the offices are closed (typically day before Christmas for example and this year liberation day).
Every 5 years of service and every 5 years over 40 years of age you get an extra day (I think there's a maximum though).

And while paid leave our paychecks are enough lower to those of our US counterparts that effectively we do pay for them...

[Jeroen Wenting]

Originally posted by Richard Hawkes:
S Korea ... . The old lady that works in her local shop is there 7-11 everyday.

I guess it's the same in all countries with self-employed people.
Except that in many European countries there's laws governing the number of hours stores are allowed to be open but I'd not be surprised if the shop owners work elsewhere during forced closures.

[Jeroen Wenting]

Originally posted by Adrian Wallace:


I believe the usual explanation for this is Latitude... Not enough sunlight during winter leading to increased risk of depression and seasonally linked bi-polar disorders.

If so we should find similar suicide stats in the notherly latitudes of Canada, Alaska & Russia - Anybody care to research this (I cant be bothered!)

The real reason are the skyhigh taxes which make that people have little to show for their highstress jobs.
As companies are also highly taxed unemployment is high. Longterm unemployed are generally not happy people (though there is a small group who don't want to work I like to believe among most ethnic and social groups these are in the minority) and suicide among unhappy people is generally higher than it is under happy people.
Giving unemployed tons of welfare support may dull them a bit into complacency but it is no structural cure for the problems of the society that created that unemployment in the first place.

That's the downside of large welfare structures!

And yes, I've been unemployed. After a few weeks of it I was seriously depressed and contemplating suicide. What kept me from it was really only the fact that my parents needed me (with my mother in hospital and my father recovering from a heart attack) and not too long after I did get a job offer.
But had my unemployment lasted for years instead of a few months I don't think I would have been able to fight the urge to end my life...
[ January 24, 2005: Message edited by: Jeroen Wenting ]

[Chris Baron]

Originally posted by Jeroen Wenting:


please tell me what company that is?
...

I found the list of the average paid holidays in 2003 here.
They reference a wellknown newspaper as source.

cb
[ January 24, 2005: Message edited by: Chris Baron ]

[Neeru Misra]

You are welcome to India - holidays galore, 30 days annual leave + 10 days casual leave + 14 days public holiday and add to this are 104 Saturdays and Sundays, year after year. Sick leave, study leave, maternity leave and yes paternity leave not included in the above list.

Amazed !!!

[Tore Sagen]

Originally posted by Jeroen Wenting:

Giving unemployed tons of welfare support may dull them a bit into complacency but it is no structural cure for the problems of the society that created that unemployment in the first place.

That's the downside of large welfare structures!

The picture is not that clear. I'm from Norway, probably the country with the most extensive public welfare system in the world. The unemployment rate is currently 4.1% here. On the other side, regarding public welfare policy, we find USA. The unemployment rate is currently 5.2%.

[Varun Khanna]

Originally posted by Dr Neeru Misra:
You are welcome to India - holidays galore, 30 days annual leave + 10 days casual leave

Which company are you working for? This data looks cool

[Neeru Misra]

The biggest employer offers this facility....no guesses

[jyothi godavarthy]

But do they actually give one the liberty to take the leaves we are alloted, my company boasts of 20 PLs and 10 holidays, but they say only on manager's approval and the manager is never ready to give them, though u plan 2 months in advance, u will have to beg him and run around him to get them, and if u take the other route, just bunk without informing him, there will be a loss of pay and your annual rating too may come down.I get so frustrated. Thus it happen everyway like this.And then the alloted leaves just elapse, they have even taken off the encashing facility from this year onwards.

[Arjun Shastry]

In my previous company I took only 4 days leave in 2 years.Thats the reason even today after leaving one year,they show interest taking me back. .

[jyothi godavarthy]

do u think thats the only reason why they are ready to take u back.

[Neeru Misra]

The biggest employer does not mind your not coming to office at all but is paranoid if you ask for leave. It increases the workload to undertake the whole lengthy process of sanction etc.