• Post Reply Bookmark Topic Watch Topic
  • New Topic

Military service  RSS feed

 
Mapraputa Is
Leverager of our synergies
Sheriff
Posts: 10065
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
... is a HUGE disaster in Russia and in many other countries. This might be a selfish point of view, yet I found it so much easier to live with men who went through it. They never complain, they eat what is here or nothing at all and again, they don't complain. They can sleep with TV on, and they don't complain. Maybe this is that women are always looking for a copy of their fathers, maybe. But from my little experience I would prefer a man who served, to three who did not, with closed eyes.
[ April 26, 2005: Message edited by: Mapraputa Is ]
 
Alan Wanwierd
Ranch Hand
Posts: 624
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I think it should be possible to teach people to behave reasonably without having to teach them how to kill people at the same time!

and Map - do you really just want a guy who has been trained to take orders without questioning? Or would you like someone who is capable of independant thought?

..I've never lived anywhere where military service is in existence and I cant imagine the horro it would involve! I knew a few French guys in the UK who were escaping military service by working for a French company outside of France - and they were really jealous of the rest of us for not having to jump through all these hoops just to avoid the experience!
 
Sonny Gill
Ranch Hand
Posts: 1211
IntelliJ IDE Mac
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I would never want to raise my children in a place where military service is compulsory, or for that matter, where they have to do anything that is not their free choice.

If self discipline is what you are after, why cant that be cultivated in schools? at home? through sports?
 
John Smith
Ranch Hand
Posts: 2937
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
This might be a selfish point of view, yet I found it so much easier to live with men who went through it. They never complain, they eat what is here or nothing at all and again, they don't complain. They can sleep with TV on, and they don't complain.

Well, I was drafted and served two years in the Russian military, and I can tell you that while it's true that I will not complain about the food or the TV, I am more likely to hit my wife with an axe than the guy who didn't serve. The non-complaining thing that I've learnt came with the cost: they mess you up for the rest of your life. And if I were to take these two years back, at the cost of annoying my wife in the future, I would make that trade.
 
Mapraputa Is
Leverager of our synergies
Sheriff
Posts: 10065
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
AW: and Map - do you really just want a guy who has been trained to take orders without questioning?

I doubt it can ever happen!

SG: If self discipline is what you are after, why cant that be cultivated in schools? at home? through sports?

I have no idea. It just can't, or so it's seems to me.

JS: while it's true that I will not complain about the food or the TV, I am more likely to hit my wife with an axe than the guy who didn't serve

It's Ok, as long as you don't whine every second minute. Once I considered becoming lesbian, because no woman I could remember could complain as much as� Um, Ok. Then I discovered Russian men who had to serve -- they are the best
[ April 26, 2005: Message edited by: Mapraputa Is ]
 
Jason Menard
Sheriff
Posts: 6450
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Originally posted by Mapraputa Is:
I would prefer a man who served, to three who did not, with closed eyes.


Did I mention that I'm going to be in San Francisco near the end of June? And would I really have to close my eyes?
 
Jason Menard
Sheriff
Posts: 6450
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Originally posted by Sonny Gill:
I would never want to raise my children in a place where military service is compulsory, or for that matter, where they have to do anything that is not their free choice.


Personally I'm all in favor of some form of compulsary term of service to the nation after graduating highschool. I don't necessarily think that this compulsary service should be in the form of military service, although that should be an option that each individual hss. Compulsary military service would just bring down the quality of the force.

Too many people are just free riders in our society and don't really give anything back. Citizenship comes with responsibility.
 
Mapraputa Is
Leverager of our synergies
Sheriff
Posts: 10065
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
> JM: Did I mention that I'm going to be in San Francisco near the end of June?

Why end of June? Why not September, say?

> And would I really have to close my eyes?

You got everything wrong. It's me who will do "close eyes" business. You don't have to.
 
Jason Menard
Sheriff
Posts: 6450
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I often recommend to kids coming out of highschool that they should consider joining the military for a few years. There's no better way to teach discipline. Young people in the military have to learn to shoulder much more responsibility than the average person their age and this makes them better people in the long run. There are so many intangibles that come from military service that can often contribute to making one a better person: the ability to think quickly and decisively under pressure, the ability to perform under duress, leadership and followership, the true meaning and importance of teamwork, just to name a few. All these things are attributes that can serve to make people successful after they leave the military.
 
John Smith
Ranch Hand
Posts: 2937
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
JM: Too many people are just free riders in our society and don't really give anything back. Citizenship comes with responsibility.

Sounds like they messed your brain, too, Jason.
 
Sonny Gill
Ranch Hand
Posts: 1211
IntelliJ IDE Mac
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Originally posted by Jason Menard:


Personally I'm all in favor of some form of compulsary term of service to the nation after graduating highschool. I don't necessarily think that this compulsary service should be in the form of military service, although that should be an option that each individual hss. Compulsary military service would just bring down the quality of the force.

Too many people are just free riders in our society and don't really give anything back. Citizenship comes with responsibility.


I agree with that. Some form of service to the society (not necessarily the country of residence) will do a lot of good for the kids.
I am not in favour of military service because of the lack of accountability and the fanaticism (my preception only, I could very well be wrong there). What I think is important for kids to develop is a strong individual will, and a sense of right and wrong, and tolerance. I doubt that military service will foster that.

[Jason, I hadnt read your second post when I posted this. But keep in mind that military training varies a lot from country to country, It is not the same everywhere]
[ April 26, 2005: Message edited by: Sonny Gill ]
 
Mapraputa Is
Leverager of our synergies
Sheriff
Posts: 10065
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
> Personally I'm all in favor of some form of compulsary term of service to the nation after graduating highschool.

As liberal as I am, I second that. What's worse, I think the girls should serve their term as well, it will only do them good

Maybe they will unlearn how to complain
 
Jason Menard
Sheriff
Posts: 6450
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Originally posted by Sonny Gill:
[Jason, I hadnt read your second post when I posted this. But keep in mind that military training varies a lot from country to country, It is not the same everywhere]


You are quite correct. I speak of Westernized volunteer-only militaries of first-world nations. In those militaries, it's more of a vocation. The training standards, educational standards, and how people are treated are all completely different from the non-first world non-volunteer forces. The Western militaries teach their people to think and act independantly (within the framework of the mission of course). The Army's advertising slogan right now is that each person is an "Army of One". While it's certainly a bit hokey, it's also not far from the truth as far as how they expect their people to perform. This is a far cry from how some other nation's militaries that I have operated with teach their people. It makes a difference.
 
Mapraputa Is
Leverager of our synergies
Sheriff
Posts: 10065
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
> I often recommend to kids coming out of highschool that they should consider joining the military for a few years

I was thinking about this recently, especially considering San Francisco homeless polupation included. Then, I read an article about our progressive forces opposing military recruit thing�

I thought that military service can be the best thing these kids can get in their lives. Why to deny them this???
 
Jason Menard
Sheriff
Posts: 6450
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Originally posted by Sonny Gill:
What I think is important for kids to develop is a strong individual will, and a sense of right and wrong, and tolerance. I doubt that military service will foster that.


I can really only speak for what the US military does, and they certainly do go far beyond trying to impart these ideals than any other organization I've seen. I can't tell you how many hours of "sensitivity training", "equal opportunity awareness", and other such classes I've had to sit through when I was in. My leadership training was geared heavily towards respecting the individual sensitivities of the people who worked for me. I often went through training on how to recognize the symptoms of depression and te signs that might lead to suicide in subordinates. There aren't many jobs that go that far for their workers.

When we were sent overseas we were often given cultural sensitivity/awareness classes so that we better understand the people who would be dealing with.

I had been drilled extensively in the Laws of Armed Conflict and the Geneva Conventions to know when they apply and when they don't, as well as to recognize violations and not commit them myself or allow my subordinates to commit them (and this is why I say that most people who in the past few years have their own "opinions" on this stuff don't have the slightest clue).

Sense of right and wrong? I've met few people outside the military who have a keener sense of right and wrong. US military people and their dependants all over the world spend countless hours of their time (on and off duty) helping the people around them. Building schools and other community projects, helping the poor and homeless, working with kids, you name it. I have never seen the level of volunteerism and community service that exists among the members of the military family.
 
Jeroen Wenting
Ranch Hand
Posts: 5093
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Originally posted by Sonny Gill:
I would never want to raise my children in a place where military service is compulsory, or for that matter, where they have to do anything that is not their free choice.

If self discipline is what you are after, why cant that be cultivated in schools? at home? through sports?


Since the draft was abandoned here and we went to an all-pro military juvenile crime rates exploded. The first generation of them is now in their early thirties and crime rates among that age group are also sharply up.
That includes not just minor misdemeanors but violent crime especially.
 
Dave Lenton
Ranch Hand
Posts: 1241
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Originally posted by Jason Menard:

Personally I'm all in favor of some form of compulsary term of service to the nation after graduating highschool. I don't necessarily think that this compulsary service should be in the form of military service, although that should be an option that each individual hss. Compulsary military service would just bring down the quality of the force.


I think this is a generally good idea, although I would also agree that the military route would perhaps not be best for all. What could be good would be a kind of service in the local community. People could do things like helping clean up local parks, work for the local council, do admin in libraries etc. This kind of work in and for the local community would help people gain a respect for it. If someone spends a couple of years cleaning up graffiti then it may make them less likely to do more of it in the future!

This kind of service may help introduce the discipline of military service, while also being a bit more useful then marching around a parade ground.
 
Jeroen Wenting
Ranch Hand
Posts: 5093
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
no, "social" service won't instill discipline or respect for authority.

Maybe they have the correct idea in Turkey where conscripts after basic training are employed as traffic wardens and other public service oriented jobs that require both authority and humility.
 
Max Habibi
town drunk
( and author)
Sheriff
Posts: 4118
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
As a middle of the road American, I dislike the idea of compulsory anything.

That may, in part, be due to my upbringing. I was raised for a good number of years in Texas and Colorado, where more people seem to feel this way about these sorts of things. It seems that in recent years, the far-right elements are society have become more vocal, and there's a perception that country has shifted to the right. Hence, the reasoning goes, ideas like compulsory military service have been dragged into the middle of things, as opposed to the far right, where they belong.

But I don't think so. I think that American values, real American values, tend to embrace the liberty of the individual, and take all of the good and bad that comes with it.

I disagree that notion that military service instills an automatic sense of right and wrong. I've seen a lot of people who were convinced of their own righteousness, but conviction does not mean correctness, as the world seems intent on demonstating(again and again, until we learn the painful lesson). If anything, I'd like to see organization who's members are willing to say "we were wrong". I don't seem to hear a lot of that.

I also disagree with the usage of discipline. In my opinion, the only decipline that's worth a damn is self-decipline, not the decipline that's imposed on you.

Again, that may be due to my upbringing.

When I decided to quite smoking @ the age of 22(after 7 years of 2 packs-a-day), I simply threw away my last pack of cigarettes. I haven't had a single one in 12 years. That's because I had a strong role models who emphasized individual character, and taught me that my opinion, my will, mattered.

It seems to me that you don't need to be involved in large fraternal gatherings in order to be an active member of your community. I'd bet that my fifth grade teacher, the wonderful Ms. Hooper, did more to improve the state of everyday Americans in 27 years of teaching then a 1000 people with assault rifles. I

think back to the wonderful Liberian in Texas, Mr. Hill, who taught me to program on his own Ti-99/4A back in 81. I'm inclined to consider the people who open soup kitchens all over my community. This is messy, unglamorous work, but it's the real underpinning of community. Not everyone will agree with this, of course, and that's ok. However, it is my observation.
[ April 27, 2005: Message edited by: Max Habibi ]
 
Warren Dew
blacksmith
Ranch Hand
Posts: 1332
2
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Jason Menard:

Personally I'm all in favor of some form of compulsary term of service to the nation after graduating highschool. I don't necessarily think that this compulsary service should be in the form of military service, although that should be an option that each individual hss.

My main problem with this idea is that I don't think the government needs that many workers.

On the original topic, I think the main advantage of military service is that it instills discipline - an appreciation for the fact that you can't have what you want all the time, or even most of the time.
 
Peter Rooke
Ranch Hand
Posts: 896
7
Java Linux Spring
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
No I don't like the idea of compulsory military service. I don't think the [British] Army is too keen on the idea anyway. Yes, the [British] Army does train (brainwash) soldiers and give them self discipline, at the cost of dehumanising them. Infantry soldiers need discipline, as their main task has always been to hold ground, whatever happens. The Guards division show this attitude in their sentry duties (outside of Buckingham Palace). Did you think it was all for tourists? But theres a catch, they tend to be inflexible and not particularly good at thinking for themselves.

more useful then marching around a parade ground.
You could not be more wrong [IMHO], drill gives most of the leadership, team work, discipline, self-confidence (etc).

Always had a feeling the [our] government likes to have large turnaround of personnel in the services; provides a kind of undercurrent of discipline into the wider society. People herding
-----
Full of a glory never seen,
They made it through the whole machine,
To never question anymore,
Hypnotic trance, they never saw,
They walked in line.
[ April 27, 2005: Message edited by: Peter Rooke ]
 
R K Singh
Ranch Hand
Posts: 5390
1
Java Spring
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Originally posted by Warren Dew:
My main problem with this idea is that I don't think the government needs that many workers.


How much I know, countries that have compulsory military service are countries where citizens do not want to join military or popultaion is less enough to make it compulsory.
 
Mapraputa Is
Leverager of our synergies
Sheriff
Posts: 10065
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
My main problem talking about military service is I don't have any experience with it. Apparently this doesn't stop some people from posting
 
Nick George
Ranch Hand
Posts: 815
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Originally posted by Jason Menard:
I often recommend to kids coming out of highschool that they should consider joining the military for a few years. There's no better way to teach discipline. Young people in the military have to learn to shoulder much more responsibility than the average person their age and this makes them better people in the long run. There are so many intangibles that come from military service that can often contribute to making one a better person: the ability to think quickly and decisively under pressure, the ability to perform under duress, leadership and followership, the true meaning and importance of teamwork, just to name a few. All these things are attributes that can serve to make people successful after they leave the military.


These all sound like good ideas until you find yourself getting shot at (or worse, shooting) in Iraq.
 
Mapraputa Is
Leverager of our synergies
Sheriff
Posts: 10065
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
You did?

Let's speak from personal experience here.
 
Jason Menard
Sheriff
Posts: 6450
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Originally posted by Peter Rooke:
Yes, the [British] Army does train (brainwash) soldiers and give them self discipline, at the cost of dehumanising them.


Could you tell us your personal experience in the [British] Army that leads influences these claims? I've worked with [British] Army personnel and have found them to be neither brainwashed nor sub-human. Perhaps the time you have spent in the [British] Army has shown something else that you could share with us?
[ April 28, 2005: Message edited by: Jason Menard ]
 
Jason Menard
Sheriff
Posts: 6450
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Originally posted by Nick George:
These all sound like good ideas until you find yourself getting shot at (or worse, shooting)


I volunteered for and was sent into combat zones on three separate occasions, with each time being a three-month stint. Most of the people who were with me had volunteered and wanted to be there as well. Nothing like what is going on now ended up happening, but it wouldn't have mattered.

Many of the people I worked with wanted to be in those places because it was an opportunity to put one's training to practical use. It's also a personal test, which is another reason why some want to be there. More importantly, you don't want to be left on the sidelines. It's like being on a highschool sports team and being left back for the away games; nobody wants that. If your friends are going to be in a certain situation, you feel the need to be there with them. What it ultimately comes down to is that it's your job, and that's what you have to do and expect you may have to do when you join.
 
Warren Dew
blacksmith
Ranch Hand
Posts: 1332
2
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I was in the Navy for a few years, but I think it's perfectly reasonable for those with no military service to be against universal service.

Relative to Jason's comment about citizenship and responsibility, I don't necessarily think that in a modern state, citizens have a responsibility to serve; I think they fulfill their responsibilities to the state by paying their taxes.

On the other hand, history tells us that states which substitute taxes for service often get into trouble after a few centuries.

Map, why do you think the Russian military is in trouble?
 
R K Singh
Ranch Hand
Posts: 5390
1
Java Spring
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Originally posted by Nick George:
Many of the people I worked with wanted to be in those places because it was an opportunity to put one's training to practical use.

screen pass != killing someone


Its part of their job.

You like it or not but its becasue of so called people who take orders only or whatever, govt. does its duty of protecting its citizen.

If there is war, people will get killed.
Its like if its game, player will get tired.

yes, compairing football with war is not wrong. Even its like you learn java language and you get an opportunity to write a program for real-time use.
 
Jason Menard
Sheriff
Posts: 6450
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Originally posted by Warren Dew:
Relative to Jason's comment about citizenship and responsibility, I don't necessarily think that in a modern state, citizens have a responsibility to serve; I think they fulfill their responsibilities to the state by paying their taxes.


I disagree that paying taxes alleviates one of any further obligation to society. I look at taxes simply as a minimum obligation, right along with obeying societies laws.

On the issue of citizen responsibility, I think Heinlein had an interesting take on it in Starship Troopers.
 
Dave Lenton
Ranch Hand
Posts: 1241
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Originally posted by Jason Menard:
I disagree that paying taxes alleviates one of any further obligation to society. I look at taxes simply as a minimum obligation, right along with obeying societies laws.



I agree. I wonder if there is a bit of a problem though because people quite often think of "society" as being an object that they are not part of - they see it as a far away thing that they throw taxes at and get things like street cleaners back from. What we could really do with is some way of encouraging people to feel that society is something that they are a part of - that it is the wider community to which we belong.

People need to learn that government != society, and that everyone (not just the politicians) has a responsibility to try and help society grow and prosper. The current tendency of people to consider society as an abstract distant entity, or even non-existent (as one British Prime Minister once said), is a bit like people in the same family not being willing to help each other with the house work.
[ April 29, 2005: Message edited by: Dave Lenton ]
 
R K Singh
Ranch Hand
Posts: 5390
1
Java Spring
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Originally posted by Jason Menard:
I disagree that paying taxes alleviates one of any further obligation to society.


I disagree.

Militry service is not necesarry to show your FAKE obligation towards society/political boundry.

I remember a story in which a musician save his country by playing flute while its army was preparing for war.

If one feels that its obligation is over by paying tax then I think it should be OK.. after all he is paying money for others to die for him.

Its same .. his job is to give tax to Govt and Govt job is to protect him..

Other than protection [of political boundries] why do you think you need militry ?

Again I disagree that, my country's militry should be involved in making some other country diplomatic. [for that matter I never liked that idea of Shanti Sena in 80s. {I know its strange term}]
 
Frank Silbermann
Ranch Hand
Posts: 1408
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Originally posted by Peter Rooke:
Yes, the [British] Army does train (brainwash) soldiers and give them self discipline, at the cost of dehumanising them.

Do you know any Englishmen who grew up in the years following WWII? If so, it would be a good opportunity to ask what it was like, living in a time when most adult men had been dehumanized. How bizarre it must have been!
 
Warren Dew
blacksmith
Ranch Hand
Posts: 1332
2
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Jason Menard:

I disagree that paying taxes alleviates one of any further obligation to society. I look at taxes simply as a minimum obligation, right along with obeying societies laws.

I differentiate between obligations to society and obligations to one's government. I agree that one's obligations to society extend beyond paying taxes and obeying laws.

On the other hand, I think that under some circumstances, obligation to society and obligation to government might be in conflict. I think that under some circumstances, fulfilling one's obligations to society might include purposely disobeying unjust laws; under extreme circumstances, they might even include fighting against the government's forces, rather than for them.

On the issue of citizen responsibility, I think Heinlein had an interesting take on it in Starship Troopers.

Yes. I'm not sure whether that society does a better job of balancing individuals' authority with their responsibilities than ours does; there are a lot of things, like tax policies, that he doesn't describe.

I'm told the movie version of that book misses all the important issues, though.
 
Mapraputa Is
Leverager of our synergies
Sheriff
Posts: 10065
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
WD: Map, why do you think the Russian military is in trouble?

I don't want even to start, or this thread will be trashed in no time.
 
Max Habibi
town drunk
( and author)
Sheriff
Posts: 4118
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Originally posted by Jason Menard:

On the issue of citizen responsibility, I think Heinlein had an interesting take on it in Starship Troopers.


Heinlein had many strange ideas, including a rather, um, indulgent attitude towards incest. As a book, I think Starship Troopers paled in comparison to John Streakley's Armor. However, it's all a matter of taste and fortitude.

M
[ April 29, 2005: Message edited by: Max Habibi ]
 
John Dunn
slicker
Ranch Hand
Posts: 1108
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Hey Map, can you find my post from this morning and un-delete it. It had a smiley face on it... :roll:
 
Mapraputa Is
Leverager of our synergies
Sheriff
Posts: 10065
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Somebody deletes posts faster than I can save them All I have is Jason's deleted post...
[ April 29, 2005: Message edited by: Mapraputa Is ]
 
Warren Dew
blacksmith
Ranch Hand
Posts: 1332
2
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Max Habibi:

Heinlein had many strange ideas, including a rather, um, indulgent attitude towards incest.

You may think that, but I think differently. I think it's important to distinguish between Heinlein's attitudes and the attitudes of his characters - and for that matter, between Heinlein's beliefs and his ideas.
 
Max Habibi
town drunk
( and author)
Sheriff
Posts: 4118
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Originally posted by Warren Dew:
Max Habibi:

Heinlein had many strange ideas, including a rather, um, indulgent attitude towards incest.

You may think that, but I think differently.



I believe we're talking about Heinlein's ideas, and there's no doubt that
  • a permissive attitude towards incest was one of his ideas.
  • generally speaking, most people find incest a strange idea



  • AFIK, I wasn't talking about his beliefs: just his ideas.

    M
     
    • Post Reply Bookmark Topic Watch Topic
    • New Topic
    Boost this thread!