I found some one cheating..!

[Deepak Chopra]

Hi All,

today due to some problem i used my colleague PC, he is currently studying for SCJP exam. When i was using his system. I found one pdf file from [ a common cheat source ] ..! It has around 300 questions.I was so stunned when i found that this is a cheating material..! All the questions were real exam questions.
Then i understand that my colleague always used to ask me..how did you clear the exam..there is so much to study..and all that stuff.. and still he has purchased the exam voucher.
I don't know what to do? This is simple cheating, he is 5 years experience guy and much senior to me. He can simple cram the questions or atleast he can understand them very well.
so he can easily clear the exam without actually studying...
please advise..!
[ September 05, 2008: Message edited by: Ulf Dittmer ]

[Paul Somnath]

Well cheating dosen't let you too far in Computers. If you are doing a job, you would soon be caught about the lack of knowledge that you are projecting. However there are many who try and cheat the exam. Lots of exam dumps are available on some sites and its a shame that people do use that.

Although the administrators here and Sun is also trying to tackle this problem, but this would take time and personally I feel it is a tough problem to tackle. The exam is getting harder and harder though.

I don't know how you can prevent him from cheating, maybe you may convince him not to cheat the exam. That is the only thing that you can do. Try and tell him that if Sun finds out that you have cheated on the exam, then your certificate may be cancelled, which is true.

[Ankit Garg]

What Somnath said is true. If he passes through cheating, then sooner or later someone will realize that he knows nothing.

If this problem continues then the exam will loose it's recognition. People will think about every certified people that they might have cheated....

[Martijn Verburg]

Sadly this is one of the main reasons why several companies I've worked for no longer count the certification as a positive when assessing new candidates.

[Jesper de Jong]

Some people don't even know that they are using illegally copied questions from the real exam. Does your colleague know?

[Deepak Chopra]

i dont know, may be i will talk with him on monday..! but personally i felt very disgusting when i saw all this..!
I have never cheated in my life.. I really respect that guy as he is very hard worker..but i hate cheaters..!

I think i will talk with him..but i dont understand how come some website got the real questions..I appeared for the exam in march and when i saw the question..I saw all the question in that file..!
[ September 05, 2008: Message edited by: Sunny Jain ]

[doug rosenberg]

Is the Pope Catholic? Of course they know they are cheating.
I have an email from someone who requested Dump from me and perhaps others. Later I saw that he had proudly put that he passed the SJCP 1.5 with 94% on LinkedIn.
Makes me want to puke!
___________________________

 
hi Ricky,
i got ur mail id from javaranch
i need a help regarding scjp 5.0 ...i have to appear 4 this exam on 23rd of this month.
its mandatory for us,if i wont clear ..i will be terminated from job ...i am a fresher ..joined last mnth only ....
i dont have any knowledge of java only basics i know ....can u guide me fully ..send me any latest dumps if you have any...how to do and what to do ...
kindly help me plz ..its very urgent .....
Regards
 
Cheaters Name Removed

[ September 05, 2008: Message edited by: doug rosenberg ]

[Ankit Garg]

I think this is very Unfortunate. I think this problem would also be with SCWCD. I hope SCEA is free from all this :roll: as it has a Essay type exam as its last step....

[Jesper de Jong]

Originally posted by Sunny Jain:
but i dont understand how come some website got the real questions..I appeared for the exam in march and when i saw the question..I saw all the question in that file..!

Well, there are dishonest people who secretly copy the questions when they do the exam, or it is also possible that someone who works at the exam center illegally copies the questions... unfortunately, there are bad people in this world...

[Saurabh Patil]

Those who cheat are only looking towards certification, not knowledge. And I think out of two, the later one is more important. They will understand this when the nasty Null Pointer Exception will trouble them

[Pranav Bhatt]

I too have brought this to notice of Bartenders here. True you can't stop that. Here's the thread i posted for this issue Click here...

[Deepak Chopra]

I think everyone knows about the common cheat source, why don't Sun ban that particular web site or there must be some way to track out the owner of that web site..!

[Deepak Bala]

mmm... here is a statistic. I interview some one once in 2 weeks or so. Some candidates have a certification towards their name. I am yet to see one that passed the exam without cheating. Cheating is so common that when I see the name SCJP on a resume I think 'yeah right !'. Eventually when I interview that person they end up knowing nothing about java. Probably why no one is able to tell me what System out and println are despite being certified.

If I however do find that the candidate really did pass SCJP without cheating (yet to meet one other than the colleague who sits near me), their prospects of being hired are very very high, since such candidates will end up knowing what they are talking about.

So this should not bother you. Sun is really not investing enough efforts to bring security standards close to that of the GRE or GMAT exams. I could rant for another 100 pages, so i think i ll stop here

Good luck with your future exams and distinguish yourself from the others by not cheating. Salute !

[arulk pillai]

Cramming or cheating is not going to do any one any good. Just certification alone is not going to be enough to succeed Java/JEE career. He/she will have to face rigorous interviewing and also have to prove himself or herself at the job.

[Jan Cumps]

mmm... here is a statistic. I interview some one once in 2 weeks or so. Some candidates have a certification towards their name. I am yet to see one that passed the exam without cheating.

Wow. Strong statement. This suprises me.
[ September 06, 2008: Message edited by: Jan Cumps ]

[Ankit Garg]

I think you can prove your knowledge at javaranch

Now recruiter's should constantly monitor javaranch and other such forums for legitimate people who are actually studying for SCJP...

[Ninad Kulkarni]

If a candidate really study for scjp very well
and know java very well then how can employer or other people asseses candidate who appeared for scjp and perform very well on that honestly?
cheating will really degrading value of scjp.
and because of some cheaters
no one can respect someone's performance on scjp
this is very serious problem.

I am very sad about degrading value of scjp because of cheating

[Pranav Bhatt]

Well in continuation of this thread i would say it should not bother much if guys are cramming up dumps. You should be honest to yourself, try to give the exam by your own that will give a satisfied smile on your lips even you score in 70'ies. You wont feel good even you score 99% with dumps in hand. I take it as how much i know not as how much i score, though if i get good that will surely be great

[doug rosenberg]

Well I used to believe in Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny and that passing the SCJP meant something!

[Heather Rose]

This topic is sensitive for a lot of people...usually because they have cheated before. People cheat for different reasons: for deadlines, to make more, to be certified, to get something done, because they are lazy, etc.

Unfortunately at the school I went to, there were VERY little people who actually DID their work. Me, being one of them. I worked VERY VERY hard and studied all night sometimes, worked all weekend, asked for help, went to forums, etc. And I STILL feel like I could learn more.

Most of the people at my school just copied each others' work and turned it in. Few were caught.

What makes me REALLY mad, is that some of the people who were thrown out because of this, were VERY VERY smart, but lazy. They could outdo me any day, and I worked my little butt off trying so hard!

Now, I have a learning disability, and it takes longer for me to get things than it does other people, but I believe that if you are working for something, you should put your whole mind to it. Not just 'i'll do it when I can' kind of attitude.

I despise cheaters, and I really really don't like people who don't work hard at what they do. SLACKERS AND CHEATERS ARE THE SAME TO ME.


Now, I have graduated with my bachelor's, and I have the Windows .NET Client side development cert. Both of which, I have earned, worked for, shed blood, sweat, and tears (ok, mainly tears) and I am proud to tell people this. For people who have cheated, it doesn't mean as much.

They are only hurting themselves.

Point made.
[ September 08, 2008: Message edited by: Heather Rose ]

[arulk pillai]

Certifications are for your own good. No one is going to give you the job just becuase you are certified. There are so many talented developers not certified at all. They learn by doing. What you learn in the certification has to be consciously applied in practice to succeed. Otherwise, it is of no use. The challenge is to know when, where, and how to apply. This can take some time.
[ September 08, 2008: Message edited by: arulk pillai ]

[Paul Somnath]

The main purpose of a certification is to show that you have certain expertise on a subject. However this dosen't mean that you are a master.
Sun certifications are meant to be taken when you have adequate experience(at least 6 months). That is when you will feel that you have the knowledge as well as the certification.
But what students try to do is that while they are very new to java, they study the guides and try to give the certification. They cram up and study the guides and think that they have done the toughest certification so the job is done. What they don't think that certification is just a theoretical exam, and in real life, practical experience is required.
SCJP is just a drop in the java ocean. Java is MUCH MUCH more than just a mere certification. Practical experience is what matters the most.
And the most pathetic part is that people try to cheat and think that they can go too far in their careers with just one Certification.
I would suggest anyone who wants to give the certification to have at least six months programming and project experience with Java and then only take the certification. Only then would it add the REAL value to your resumes.

[Paul Somnath]

What I said was only in the context of giving a fair exam. Its good to give a fair exam after an experience of at least six months.
I am also aware that some centers in India are illegally involved with IT certifications. Its the responsibility of the vendor to manage these things.
This issue is not a unknown one. This has been done for many years and the vendors are aware of it.
IMO there should be more stringent rules in pro-metric centers for a fair assessment.
As far as faking the experience is concerned, I've already said that they would not get too far in their careers. Someday they would be caught that they don't have the adequate knowledge that they project.
Most good organizations are very very strict on the interviews/selection process and there is a very high probability that they would get caught if they don't have the required skills they project.
[ September 09, 2008: Message edited by: Somnath Paul ]

[Marcus Moreno]

I really don't know what you guys make all the fuss about "cheating".
I know in other countries, such as the USA, cheating has a really low acceptance by the majority.

Here, cheating is more ok - like in school - if you make it to cheat, then you in a way deserve the score you got, because beeing able to cheat is also SOME ability!

...Anyway, before I get you guys throwing stuff at me -
1. I don't think it's possible to only get a score of 94% by cheating.
Even if you have such "real exam" questions - how could they be real? I guess they were written done by SCJP-(wanna be)'s, from what they remember.
a) Would they really be able to remember 72 questions CORRECTLY?
b) I assume there will be more then just one exam, there could be a hundred,
=> getting a score simply by cheating is impossible. Also, it is impossible
to study all these 10-100 exams without any knowledge - and if you do so, by
this way of "cheating" - I bet you will actually understand those things!
c) Cheating can even make you fail - once, in school, I wasn't very good at that time in that subject, and our teacher had the next day's test on his table. In the middle of class we started a discussion and everyone was standing around his table - I tried to remember as much as possible from the test and felt confident. The next morning - I failed the test - all the stirr had make me leave the path I should have followed - studying...
=> I learned cheating helps only sometimes, only a tiny bit, and the chances it even does damage are big. On the other hand, some ways of cheating will even help you improve your skills - like when you try to write everything important on a tiny little paper. This will make you think A LOT - when you'r done, you might just as well throw away this paper..
Also - even though I think it is not possible to completly "cheat" a score of 94%, I think it is even ok to have a look in those "real exams" - it only prove's you know the last and most important rule - "never do stupid things twice" - Would you consider using a framework a "cheat"?! If you use those "real exams" the right way, then can even be a tool of really improving your skills. Once, in unversity, we had to do a series of practical programming tasks. They were really hard, yet I tried my best to do them on my own. I knew, all these programming tasks were already done by thousands of other students, and so they also existed on the web. I also downloaded those tests and compared my solution to the right once, and were I had failed, I took time to find out what I had done wrong - this further improved my skills. Other students, monkeys, just copy & pasted the one's the found on the web - and when it came to the final exam, they all sucked, yet I got a score of 98%! :-)
2. A score is nothing. It's the knowledge you will gain. That's what make's me study more and more - I don't only want to get a good score, but I also want to learn java by heart. What will it help you if you get a score of 100%, then you're hired, and just after a week the company will fire you, because you suck.
3 With all your fuss about "bad bad cheaters" (I've seen several topics about it now...) - in the end all you gain is to get more cheaters. Before those posts on javaranch, I didn't even know that was possible. Know I might also risk an eye - to be honest. But I don't expect new insights from this, but maybe if I will be able to pass those tests I will sleep a bit better, or maybe I will learn something new, which I would welcome!
(believe me, I am really studying hard: https://coderanch.com/t/417624/java-programmer-SCJP/certification/ready)

Sorry, but "I found someone cheating" - sounds really, really childish to me! Let them cheat! Give them the real exams - directly from sun! Maybe THIS will make them study SOMETHING at least, instead of trying, failing, and never ever trying again.

I thought it all was about knowledge - this score thingy for me is more a personal confirmation of whether I did well or if I did not. If you cheat, you only TRY to cheat yourself - but you will sometimes realize that you can't...

Also, I think the mock exams from KS&BB, whizlabs, enthuware... are way better then "real exams" -
a) they are harder - if you manage those, you will manage the exam with flying colors
b) You can count on them. They have been done by PROs and not by SCJP wanna-be's.

Let them cheat! This will make them lose 200 bucks for the test, and will actually make them study something!

P.s.: And please stop those "cheating" discussions" - this s**t will only catch more flies (cheaters).

In conclusion:

1. "Cheating" is never good or bad. It's a tool. It depends on you, what you do with it.
2. You can't cheat knowledge. I even doubt you could only cheat a good score. Well, if you could, this would in the end make you look even more silly - a morron with a golden chain! ;-)
3. You can never cheat yourself, you can hardly cheat other's. It's your knowledge that make's the difference, and not your golden chain.
4. Stop those "cheating is bad discussions", if you want to stop people from cheating.

Over and out! ;-)
[ September 10, 2008: Message edited by: Marcus Moreno ]

[chander shivdasani]

lets leave these kind of things to one's conscience.

[Nikos Pougounias]

Originally posted by Marcus Moreno:
A score is nothing. It's the knowledge you will gain.

I do agree.

[Henry Wong]

1. "Cheating" is never good or bad. It's a tool. It depends on you, what you do with it.
2. You can't cheat knowledge. I even doubt you could only cheat a good score. Well, if you could, this would in the end make you look even more silly - a morron with a golden chain! ;-)
3. You can never cheat yourself, you can hardly cheat other's. It's your knowledge that make's the difference, and not your golden chain.
4. Stop those "cheating is bad discussions", if you want to stop people from cheating.

Instead of (1) trying to justify that it is impossible to cheat without actually learning, (2) that it is not hurting anyone, and (3) if you want to stop it then you should allow it... sort of how a lawyers argues... My client didn't do it. Nobody saw him do it. And you can't prove it that he did it.

Let's just look at the points.

- It does waste time and money. I can't tell you how many people that was hired and then susquentially fired because of incompetence. It is a pain in the arse, and it delays projects, to clean out development teams of imcompetent people.

- It affects productivity and moral. Having incompetence on a team will affect productivity. And for large companies who can take years to fire someone, it will affect moral too. After all, who want to work that hard, when they know that they have a colleague whose not doing any work -- or is not capable of doing any work.

- It hurts the certification. Quite frankly, why would you value the certification on someone's resume, when you have encountered people with the certification and without the skills.


IOWs, when I see a SCJP on a resume, I give it zero weight. And I am sure that I am not the only one that does it.

Henry

[Deepak Bala]

IOWs, when I see a SCJP on a resume, I give it zero weight. And I am sure that I am not the only one that does it.

++

[Ls chin]

Do candidates with a college diploma gets employed more often compared to those with SCJP? Are employers "prejudiced" towards SCJP certified programmers? (Like, oh you! You have an SCJP - you mustn't be very competent!!) Like that???

Imho, SCJP is a professional certification and it's meant for people with some programming background, either they are self-taught or they went to college/uni, and they understand the basics of Java programming language.

Now, whether they become "good" programmers or not, it's a totally different story. (SCJP != genius programmers). People who have that notion, are mistaken from the very beginning. This scenario is the same for every industry as well. Certs and degrees don't mean much, although it is very, very, very 'necessary' to have one.

For example, I know a guy who has a law degree from a US university but he sucked sooo bad at being a lawyer, he had to quit. Then he did 2 yrs of programming in college and now he's a happy programmer! People with MBA aren't necessary good managers at all, but still, they have to show the potential employers that they've had some "formal education" in that field of study.

So, getting an SCJP is the same - it shows that we have some formal education and knowledge of Java. No?

In another Java forums, I hear a few people bashing SCJP all the time - it's discouraging actually. I post my opinions here because people are friendlier here. heheh


Actually, how do programmers "prove themselves" to be employable? How would anyone know if they are good or not? Hiring is risky too. I would understand it from both POVs. Actually, what do employers look for, how do they do the screening?

Looking forward to hear from you all.

[marc weber]

Originally posted by Deepak Bala:
... Eventually when I interview that person they end up knowing nothing about java...

How do these people even get an interview?

(I've only had 1 interview in the last 13 years, and there was a 45-minute phone screening before coming in.)

[Ls chin]

Originally posted by marc weber:
How do these people even get an interview?

Umm yea. Some companies tend to do things inefficiently.

By calling people in for an interview, they actually give them false hope. ggrrrr

[Marcus Green]

The real exam database has hundreds of questions in it. It is really difficult to memorise the actual questions. Arguably it is probably easier to learn Java. Do some people cheat, yes, are they successful? sometimes. Do people use "dumps"? yes. Are the dumps actually accurate, sometimes.

Frequently they are reconstructed from memory by people who have taken the exam and are laughably innaccurate due to the fragility of memory and the pressure of the exam situation. Should Sun change the question bank more frequently? probably. Do employers generally assume that someone with the SCJP has passed through cheating, No. Does any sensible employer check a candidates understanding further. Yes. Move along nothing to see, film at 11.

[John Woo]

Do you think it is possible that someone is just hired just because he has a certificate? Is owning a certificate the only creteria? It's naive to take certificates so seriously. I wouldn't take one if my employer does not reimburse the cost.

[Ninad Kulkarni]

SCJP certification has a value if a person knows java language very well
and it can be assesed by technical interview of that person.

If a candidate do scjp honestly then it has no problem at all that is in interview or any real world programming because he knows java very well

So certification alone is not valuable it is also important to have sound knowledge in java then it is definitely valuable regardless of whether a candidate have experience or not.

Regards
Ninad
[ September 14, 2008: Message edited by: Ninad Kulkarni ]

[Sumit Bisht]

This has been quite an interesting discussion.
As a student, i've got no formal java experience, but have been self studying it for the last 2 years.This certification's most valuable aspect is that it has been able to improve/improvise my knowledge regarding java and I now feel more confident in it(As compared to those who just moved on to other java EE stuff).
Wannabe Cheaters, please take note!

[Jimmy Clark]

The true benefit of the certification process is the deep knowledge you attain in order to pass the exam. In reality, this has very little to "jobs" or how you are "percieved."

What "you" do with the knowledge and how "you" present it is your unique experience. If someone cheats to pass the exam, then "they" do not attain the knowledge.

When you search the internet and find strange "Java Expert - Let me help you pass the certification test" websites, you may start to see why employers don't really consider the certificate.

If you can present yourself honestly in an interview and demonstrate your knowledge, then you will be fine. However, just having some acronym on your resume will mean nothing.

If you have a strong background with real experience, simply putting "Sun certified professional" on your resume is suffiecient. No need for all the acronyms. If the interviewer is interested in this, they will ask.

If your experience comes from "James Handy Resume Kit - with catchy phrases for $12.99", you may need to rethink your strategy.
[ September 14, 2008: Message edited by: James Clark ]